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DarkCrawler posted:Iraq is majority Shia. Syria is Sunni. Yeah sorry I believe it's the majority of the diaspora is Shia, not Syria itself. I forgot sometimes because of Assad's Awalite background. Which is probably of course why Daesh had such a large recruiting pool given the leader's the opposite of the majority faith.
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Apr 17, 2016 15:40
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DarkCrawler posted:Iraq is majority Shia. Syria is Sunni. To be fair, there is a vast difference in the treatment that refugees get in Turkey/Lebanon and Europe. If Germany/Europe could simply establish refugee camps and have the UNHCR/WFP and NGOs care for the refugees, things would be different.
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Apr 17, 2016 15:40
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GaussianCopula posted:To be fair, there is a vast difference in the treatment that refugees get in Turkey/Lebanon and Europe. If Germany/Europe could simply establish refugee camps and have the UNHCR/WFP and NGOs care for the refugees, things would be different. More camps burned down by locals? 
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Apr 17, 2016 15:44
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steinrokkan posted:I don't think this is really a thing, but you don't need lynch kind to prove your point. Many black people have been able to live normal lives in the US society, and they are undeniably part of American politics and culture, but I don't think there's a European country where the Roma a achieved any sort of integration at all, they are pretty exclusively relegated to second class status, if not entirely cordoned off in tenement ghettos that would make most third world country people cringe. Don't gypsies not want to integrate? Like, I thought that was their whole deal, they like travelling around, doing their thing. wan't their a big kerfuffle in Britain a few years back because a bunch of gypsies just moved onto a dude's field and started building houses and stuff without his permission, and the government was like, "you can't do that"? feel free to tell me I'm completely wrong about everything, I don't know anything about gypsies.
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Apr 17, 2016 16:03
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Roma tend to integrate pretty well in America/Canada, where people don't have extreme hate against them.
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Apr 17, 2016 16:08
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There are a few travelers who absolutely don't want to integrate at all but by and large the problem occurs because, as travelers, they don't want to settle down in any one place, so institutions that require you to have a fixed address etc. are undesirable. I think in Spain there was a pilot scheme where this was taken into account and Roma crime rates dropped as well as school attainment records jumping up quite high. Someone from Spain feel free to tell me that was bunk, though.
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Apr 17, 2016 16:09
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boom boom boom posted:Don't gypsies not want to integrate? Like, I thought that was their whole deal, they like travelling around, doing their thing. wan't their a big kerfuffle in Britain a few years back because a bunch of gypsies just moved onto a dude's field and started building houses and stuff without his permission, and the government was like, "you can't do that"? You can't generalize about the Romani people, they are a very diverse bunch. Some of them are settled, others are nomadic. There is a chicken-and-egg aspect to their integration problem: are they disliked because they are insular, or are they insular because they are disliked? It's a vicious circle. Yeah, some of them flout the laws of the land (find me one population that is 100% law-abiding) but that doesn't mean they're all roaming gangs of criminals. They are generally treated pretty terribly, even when there is legislation that explicitly protects their rights.
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Apr 17, 2016 16:20
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GaussianCopula posted:To be fair, there is a vast difference in the treatment that refugees get in Turkey/Lebanon and Europe. If Germany/Europe could simply establish refugee camps and have the UNHCR/WFP and NGOs care for the refugees, things would be different. Yeah well to be fair, there is a vast difference between the available resources to employ and relative impact on the country too. To have as much refugees as Lebanon per capita, Europe would have to take more of them then actually exist. And Europe is ridiculously more wealthy and stable so it still wouldn't be equivalent. There is a vast difference between the treatment a refugee gets in Germany VS Greece, Macedonia or Hungary as well.
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Apr 17, 2016 16:20
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Cat Mattress posted:You can't generalize about the Romani people, they are a very diverse bunch. Some of them are settled, others are nomadic. on that subject, is Roma or Romani really the cool thing to say instead of Gypsy? I don't want it to be like that time when it filtered through that you're supposed to say Inuit instead of Eskimo, and then it turned out Inuit referred to a specific tribe and there's plenty of northern indigenous peoples who get mad if you call them inuits
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Apr 17, 2016 16:24
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boom boom boom posted:Wan't their a big kerfuffle in Britain a few years back because a bunch of gypsies just moved onto a dude's field and started building houses and stuff without his permission, and the government was like, "you can't do that"? Do you mean the Dale Farm dispute? If so the site was owned by Travellers, the dispute was over the fact it was green belt land and the construction on the site was carried out with planning permission
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Apr 17, 2016 16:30
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boom boom boom posted:on that subject, is Roma or Romani really the cool thing to say instead of Gypsy? I don't want it to be like that time when it filtered through that you're supposed to say Inuit instead of Eskimo, and then it turned out Inuit referred to a specific tribe and there's plenty of northern indigenous peoples who get mad if you call them inuits Roma are a distinct ethnic group among gypsies as are Sinti and a dozen others who HATE being called Sinti or Roma and actually prefer to be just called gypsy. Basically you're wrong depending on who you talk to.
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Apr 17, 2016 16:38
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The politically correct term in the UK is traveller, which also encompasses Irish communities.
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Apr 17, 2016 16:43
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kustomkarkommando posted:Do you mean the Dale Farm dispute? If so the site was owned by Travellers, the dispute was over the fact it was green belt land and the construction on the site was carried out with planning permission Oh ok, so it was like Britain's version of the Bundy Ranch standoff?
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Apr 17, 2016 16:44
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boom boom boom posted:Oh ok, so it was like Britain's version of the Bundy Ranch standoff? It was more a conservative council using Rules-lawyering to oust social undesirables, the site was previously a scrap yard the council dumped waste onto it was in no way green belt.
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Apr 17, 2016 16:48
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boom boom boom posted:on that subject, is Roma or Romani really the cool thing to say instead of Gypsy? I don't want it to be like that time when it filtered through that you're supposed to say Inuit instead of Eskimo, and then it turned out Inuit referred to a specific tribe and there's plenty of northern indigenous peoples who get mad if you call them inuits Regardless of how you choose to call them all as a group, some will object. Wikipedia has a whole article just about their names.
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Apr 17, 2016 17:09
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Tesseraction posted:And given that a lot of the diaspora are fleeing from religious extremists, I'd say moving to nominally secular countries like France or Sweden makes sense considering if I was being persecuted for being atheist the last place I'd want to go is a) another Islamic theocracy or b) a Christian fundamentalist country like Hungary or Poland.
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Apr 17, 2016 18:33
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Neat little rhetorical trick here. Just because people are fleeing from religious extremists doesn't mean they're atheist, or even secular. True, but lots of people have no qualms in holding the opposite but similar assumption that just because they're from the Middle East, they are deeply religious fundamentalist Muslims.
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Apr 17, 2016 19:03
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Cat Mattress posted:Yeah, the USA champion free speech to an extent that I'm fine with Europe not imitating. I just wanted to point out for the many Americans reading that Western European states are,, in general, less permissive than the US when it comes to offensive or politically disagreeable speech and that this was not some unprecedented event.
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Apr 17, 2016 19:35
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Cat Mattress posted:True, but lots of people have no qualms in holding the opposite but similar assumption that just because they're from the Middle East, they are deeply religious fundamentalist Muslims.
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Apr 17, 2016 19:40
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Kassad posted:Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey (the part where refugees are, at least) are in Asia. And this right here is the problem. You assume the refugees are all Syrian/Iraqis/Iranians. This is nowhere NEAR the truth.
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Apr 17, 2016 23:13
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Those who do not come from a war-torn country like Syria, Iraq, Libya, or Yemen are not considered to be refugees.
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Apr 17, 2016 23:36
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Cat Mattress posted:Those who do not come from a war-torn country like Syria, Iraq, Libya, or Yemen are not considered to be refugees. That's great in theory, however the stand that "Germany welcomes all refugees" was apparently not clear on the "You must be an actual refugee" part. So what you actually have is migrants from every country trying to claim asylum all at once. It was a ridiculous popularity stunt by Merkel and has backfired badly.
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Apr 18, 2016 00:29
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Cat Mattress posted:Those who do not come from a war-torn country like Syria, Iraq, Libya, or Yemen are not considered to be refugees. lots of political refugees from east africa where i'm from you know, like, journalists, labour organisers &c who are persecuted by their government because they're idk communists or w/e
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Apr 18, 2016 00:32
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well, "lots", relatively speaking the point being, it's entirely plausible that some saudi republican or w/e could flee and have a valid reason to seek asylum in europe
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Apr 18, 2016 00:32
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V. Illych L. posted:lots of political refugees from east africa where i'm from Bunch of no-good lazy parasites want to gorge themselves on our welfare states and steal all our jobs 
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Apr 18, 2016 01:02
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V. Illych L. posted:the point being, it's entirely plausible that some saudi republican or w/e could flee and have a valid reason to seek asylum in europe Sure, but if they come as political refugees then they have to prove their claim that they face political persecution at home. For what happens next, play "Papers, Please".
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Apr 18, 2016 02:12
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Political persecution in the Gambia? Don't be ridiculous!
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Apr 18, 2016 02:49
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Cat Mattress posted:Sure, but if they come as political refugees then they have to prove their claim that they face political persecution at home. yeah the ones i know generally have physical scars and a haunted look in their eyes to back up their case i guess i could see some case-manager arguing that they hung themselves up by meathooks or something though
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Apr 18, 2016 02:51
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Cat Mattress posted:Sure, but if they come as political refugees then they have to prove their claim that they face political persecution at home. A lot of migrants throw their passport away and say they lost them in the war to hide the fact they are economical refugees. You have to take them in until you figure out their nationality, because it's not allowed to let people become stateless.
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Apr 19, 2016 06:48
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http://www.svd.se/romson-11-september-en-olycka/om/sverigequote:Deputy Prime Minister Åsa Romson (MP) termed the terrorist attacks in the United States September 11, 2001 as "accidents" when she starred in "Good morning Sweden" on SVT this morning What did she mean by this? ----------------
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Apr 19, 2016 13:22
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Narciss posted:http://www.svd.se/romson-11-september-en-olycka/om/sverige Are you asking for a translation or for people to read her mind? 
Cake Smashing Boob fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Apr 19, 2016 |
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Apr 19, 2016 15:17
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Narciss posted:http://www.svd.se/romson-11-september-en-olycka/om/sverige Her claimed intent was to describe the event from the point of Swedish muslims. The full quote is "he has been the president for young muslims (an organization) during difficult situations such as those around the 11 september accidents". The whole comment is about the ties of a (now former) miniser from her party, to Turkish extreme right and Islamist organizations. It wouldn't surprise me if that was the intent, but that she is just bad with politically appropriate phrasing, she has had a number of these issues in the press over the years.
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Apr 19, 2016 16:25
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Cat Mattress posted:True, but lots of people have no qualms in holding the opposite but similar assumption that just because they're from the Middle East, they are deeply religious fundamentalist Muslims. So far evidence would seem to bear out the assertion that a large fraction of them, if not a majority per se, are deeply religious fundamentalist Muslims. Furthermore, while there can certainly be exceptions, I think that in the current atmosphere of extremism, it is fair to say that the more religious a particular Muslim is, the more likely they are to be a political extremist who supports violence and theocracy. Note that the metric I am using for religiosity here is the relative importance an individual assigns to defending/spreading/living out his or her religion vs. the importance assigned to everything else in their life; detailed knowledge of specific scripture is not a useful way to measure religiosity. None of this is to say that any refugees should necessarily be denied asylum. But I do think that by now, there is a very strong argument to be made that the religious beliefs and culture of these refugees and migrants represent a particular problem that needs to be directly and specifically addressed by the host governments - because out of all the social and political improvements that western civilization has accomplished over the past three centuries, secularism is the most indispensable.
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Apr 19, 2016 17:07
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Zudgemud posted:Her claimed intent was to describe the event from the point of Swedish muslims. The full quote is "he has been the president for young muslims (an organization) during difficult situations such as those around the 11 september accidents". The whole comment is about the ties of a (now former) miniser from her party, to Turkish extreme right and Islamist organizations. When translating to English (especially via machine translation) her poor choice of words is compounded by the fact that there is no 1:1 translation of the word "olycka" besides. It is (of course) a much broader term than "accident" (see my post above). Going by the machine translated excerpt you would think she called the 11 september attacks "olyckshändelser" or something, which of course she did not (although granted there is room to interpret it that way - if you do it maliciously; which is why a competent spokesperson (Romson being the opposite) would have used another word entirely). Cake Smashing Boob fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Apr 19, 2016 |
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Apr 19, 2016 17:21
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It seems to me a better translation than accident would be something like "unfortunate incident", wouldn't it? Still stupid, but not outright whitewashing.
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Apr 19, 2016 18:49
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steinrokkan posted:It seems to me a better translation than accident would be something like "unfortunate incident", wouldn't it? Still stupid, but not outright whitewashing. In the context it could also mean the incidents relating to 9/11 with an increase in islamophobia and various attacks etc. But most likely she just used the wrong word and politically inappropriate phrasing, she has done several of those before, and she most likely won't actually go dance a jig on some 9/11 memorial.
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Apr 19, 2016 21:03
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It's pretty racist to call the 9/11 attacks "accidents", like Arabs aren't able to put their mind to an intellectual pursuit and succeed.
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Apr 19, 2016 21:11
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A Buttery Pastry posted:It's pretty racist to call the 9/11 attacks "accidents", like Arabs aren't able to put their mind to an intellectual pursuit and succeed. Jet fuel can't melt steel beams, it was actually just a very poorly built and maintained building, it would have collapsed any day then, the plane crashing was a non factor.
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Apr 19, 2016 21:24
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Liberal_L33t posted:So far evidence would seem to bear out the assertion that a large fraction of them, if not a majority per se, are deeply religious fundamentalist Muslims. That's interesting since it's not what I was led to believe, can you link the data?
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Apr 20, 2016 01:15
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Tesseraction posted:That's interesting since it's not what I was led to believe, can you link the data? It's Liberal_l33t dude. He thinks every Muslim is a fundamentalist. Like Dawkins level paranoid delusion.
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