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Yardbomb posted:Who bombs an empty bus though. I would Hazzard a guess in saying someone who made the timer too long. Or The Weathermen, they would bomb empty buildings or place a bomb and have them evacuate the place
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Apr 18, 2016 18:14
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Or someone who couldn't place the bomb on a full bus, or someone who wanted to put the bomb on an empty bus and explode it next to a full bus. Or it's not a bombing attack. Or it's not a terror attack but rather something felonious. Or who knows.
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Apr 18, 2016 18:18
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It's obviously a terror attack, the only question is who did it and why? A bomb - a time bomb, no less, and one powerful enough to set other vehicles around it on fire - points to a level of sophistication that mostly isn't seen lately in either the usual day-to-day attacks or the mini-intifada of the last six months. That's very concerning.
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Apr 18, 2016 18:27
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Oh, as we're already on the subject of the drums of war beating in their mad crescendo, the IDF has confirmed the reports from last week about the detection of a cross border tunnel coming out of Gaza. There are unconfirmed rumors that a Hamas senior officer has defected to PA\Israel (rumors are unclear) and that he provided some critical intel; this is an unconfirmed rumor so don't crucify me if this turns out to be pure fiction.
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Apr 18, 2016 18:32
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Do you have a link to an article or is it just a twitter rumor?
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Apr 18, 2016 18:44
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It was in a facebook post, I was looking for it but the guy has apparently deleted it since so let's place this in the tinfoil drawer for now. if something more substantial surfaces I'll let you guys know.
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Apr 18, 2016 18:52
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apologies for double posting but of course Richard Silverstein has an article up about the defection rumors: http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2...ments-of-story/ posting of Richard Silverstein articles is in no way an endorsement of the articles or of Richard Silverstein
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Apr 18, 2016 19:53
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CNN is quoting Israeli police saying that the bus explosion was a deliberate attack.
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Apr 18, 2016 21:03
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emanresu tnuocca posted:posting of Richard Silverstein articles is in no way an endorsement of the articles or of Richard Silverstein
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Apr 18, 2016 22:51
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Yosef Ben David and his two cousins who've brutally murdered 16 year old Muhammad Abu Khdeir a couple of weeks before Protective Edge have all been convicted of Murder, Ben David and one of the cousins have been sentenced to life in prison, the remaining culprit has been sentenced to 21 years. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/211106 Edit: When it rains it pours, Yishai Schlisel the ultra orthodox psychopath who went on a stabbing spree in the Jerusalem Gay Pride parade and murdered 16 year old Shira Banky has also been convicted of murder and is expected to be sentenced to life in prison. Reminder that Schlisel is a repeat offender who pulled the exact same stunt 11 years ago in the Jerusalem Gay Pride Parade only that time he only injured a couple of folks. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Apr 19, 2016 |
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Apr 19, 2016 09:59
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Not surprised that Schlissel got the book thrown at him, considering both his status as a repeat offender and his defense of "I refuse to be subject to any law besides the Torah and do not acknowledge the authority of this court". Biden gave a speech at J Street last night, saying that Netanyahu's actions cause "overwhelming frustration" at the White House, and that settlement expansion and other policies are moving Israel toward a "one-state reality" which would "not be Jewish and not be Democratic". He said that he saw "no political will among Israelis or Palestinians to move forward", noting that "the trust that is necessary to take risks for peace is fractured on both sides". Meanwhile, random nobody Zionists continue to rail against the "cultural lobotomies" the evil gentiles are committing against Diaspora Jews, who need to hurry up and move to Israel before it's too late: quote:As we noted, the Pesach Haggadah begins by emphasizing that a Jew can only be considered free when he or she lives in the Land of Israel, as it says: “This year, we are here; next year, in the Land of Israel. This year, we are slaves; next year, free people.”
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Apr 19, 2016 15:50
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Main Paineframe posted:Meanwhile, random nobody Zionists continue to rail against the "cultural lobotomies" the evil gentiles are committing against Diaspora Jews, who need to hurry up and move to Israel before it's too late: A further example of how Zionists and anti-Semites mostly disagree on whether or not Jews are good, and on few other points.
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Apr 19, 2016 16:08
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Volkerball posted:So now they are Israeli puppets? Ignoring the fact that this completely undermines your point about Israel being "allied" with any Palestinian body, you're way off base. Pretty sure Israel wasn't very happy about releasing prisoners as concessions to the PA during negotiations, or the PA applying to UN charters and the ICC very publicly to stick their thumb in Israel's eye. Israel is not politically aligned with anyone who wishes to unlock the ball and chain on Palestines ankle, because at the end of the day, they are not open to giving up concessions on basic human rights that would allow Palestine to thrive as a normal nation. That's why the situation has been stagnant for so long. There are a lot of reasons it's been stagnant, Netanyahu isn't a dictator for life, there was a long period where Kadima was eager to make a deal. There's plenty of blame to go around, and certainly Hamas and Fatah have incited violence at points to bring in more right wing governments. And as you'd probably concede in another thread, Israel is now allied with most of the Sunni states in the region even if they're not so eager to announce it.
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Apr 20, 2016 03:03
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There was a rally organized to show support for Elor Azaria and his family in the Rabin Square in Tel-Aviv yesterday organized by former Yisrael Beitenu MK and passionate racist Sharon Gal, attendance wasn't as high as the organizers originally hoped with less than 10,000 people showing up; based on the photographs from the rally it would seem most attendants were Kahanists and other assorted Kookists. Highlights include David Sheen getting chased out of the square by Kahanists for the crime of being openly leftist in public - https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/death-arabs-rally-draws-thousands-tel-aviv quote:Jeff Hali - "I don't get ti, what did he do to earn those responses??? Can't figure anything out from this video you only see an angry mob yelling at him" Should be noted that Eliassi himself despite being a Grand Wizard and outspoken fascist was told by the organizers of the rally not to show up as they do not wish to be associated with him and his brand, he posted a few salty posts on facebook one of them including the following heart-wrenching quote: "I won't tell you this doesn't hurt because it does, it feels like I've been kicked out of a party that I organized". He also admitted to having originally lied about being hospitalized for appendicitis to avoid owning up to the fact that he was banned from the rally. and also this:  And here's some Kahanists:  The yellow flag says "Kahane Was Right", foreground sign says "A dead terrorist doesn't return to murder jews".
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Apr 20, 2016 08:53
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Does Hamas give life in prison or does it give the death penalty to Palestinians who murder Israelis?
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Apr 20, 2016 09:02
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Congratulations to Israel for being the recipient of the "Slightly More Moral Than Hamas (in certain respects)" award for the year 2016.
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Apr 20, 2016 09:15
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hakimashou posted:Does Hamas give life in prison or does it give the death penalty to Palestinians who murder Israelis? I dunno, let's ask the guy who blew up kids playing on the beach in Gaza. Then again, he'd probably just spout some racist rhetoric, rather than pointing out say that you're deliberately comparing government-sanctioned killing to unsanctioned acts by private individuals in order to push a false dichotomy!
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Apr 20, 2016 14:43
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hakimashou posted:Does Hamas give life in prison or does it give the death penalty to Palestinians who murder Israelis? I'm no expert, but I don't think Israel allows Palestine to have any sort of jurisdiction when it comes to crimes committed against Israelis.
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Apr 20, 2016 22:14
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The most badly wounded victim of the bus bombing, a man who lost both legs as a result and later died in the hospital, is suspected to be the bomber. Something is seriously wrong with the media coverage, though - apparently he's a suspect because the bomb was between his legs when it exploded, but reports are still saying the bus that the bomb was on was empty? I have yet to see anything that resolves that inconsistency. Meanwhile, Hamas has stated that the bomber was "one of [their] members", but have not claimed credit for the attack. An unnamed Palestinian who knew the suspect says that the suspect's cousin was accidentally killed by the IDF in January (the IDF broke up a protest with live fire, a stray bullet hit the cousin who was passing by in the chest) and that the suspect was "angry" at the funeral. The "center-left" parties in the Knesset are rapidly becoming a joke after Herzog declared that Labor and the Zionist Union need to be "more right-wing" and that they need to shed "the impression that we are always Arab-lovers". Given that Netanyahu just had a public falling-out with Bennett and that Herzog is under investigation for illegal campaign contributions and other improper payments, this might be a sign of political shifts to come. Six settlers have been arrested by the Shin Bet as members of a "Jewish terror cell", accused of a long list of crimes that include stone-throwing, torching Palestinian cars, throwing tear gas grenades into occupied Palestinian homes, pepper spraying a Palestinian farmer and beating him with clubs, and attempting to firebomb an occupied home at night in what was clearly an attempt to copycat the Duma arson. The right is raising a huge fuss about how the Shin Bet is clearly abusing these poor patriots and forcing them into false confessions by applying measures that are normally only used against Palestinians. Sorry if it sounds like I'm glorifying prisoner abuse, but given that Ettinger recently claimed that a prison guard abused him by filing a complaint saying that Ettinger was threatening him, it doesn't sound like they're exactly enduring the Guantanamo treatment.
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Apr 21, 2016 16:30
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Zionist Union MK Erel Margalit released a trump-esque campaign video yesterday where the slogan is "Give us our country, go back to hell" (well not goddamn the actual word was Kibinimat which I think is russian in origin, not sure maybe Xander can illuminate on the subject). Those dudes have went beyond a mere joke. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Apr 21, 2016 |
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Apr 21, 2016 16:50
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Main Paineframe posted:The right is raising a huge fuss about how the Shin Bet is clearly abusing these poor patriots and forcing them into false confessions by applying measures that are normally only used against Palestinians. Do they actually admit to that last part?
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Apr 21, 2016 17:33
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Main Paineframe posted:I dunno, let's ask the guy who blew up kids playing on the beach in Gaza. Then again, he'd probably just spout some racist rhetoric, rather than pointing out say that you're deliberately comparing government-sanctioned killing to unsanctioned acts by private individuals in order to push a false dichotomy! This is the part I can't wrap my head around. Most of the people who defend Israel in conversations like this tend to genuinely believe that government-sanctioned violence committed by an organized military is somehow less bad than private individuals committing acts of terror. Usually I can at least understand the warped logic that leads to dumb right-wing opinions, but I honestly don't know where they're coming from here. The only thing I can think of is that they consider military violence more justifiable solely because the military (in this case the IDF) attempts to make excuses for its violence, whereas terrorists just flat out say "yeah we wanted to kill civilians." Like, it's somehow better for the IDF to kill orders of magnitude more civilians as long as they claim it wasn't their primary goal.
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Apr 21, 2016 17:38
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Ytlaya posted:The only thing I can think of is that they consider military violence more justifiable solely because the military (in this case the IDF) attempts to make excuses for its violence, whereas terrorists just flat out say "yeah we wanted to kill civilians." Like, it's somehow better for the IDF to kill orders of magnitude more civilians as long as they claim it wasn't their primary goal. I think it's more about this perception that terrorists are responsible for all the people who die when we bomb them. Much like the various civilian casualties the US military will continue to cause the world over for decades to come.
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Apr 21, 2016 18:06
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Nevvy Z posted:I think it's more about this perception that terrorists are responsible for all the people who die when we bomb them. Much like the various civilian casualties the US military will continue to cause the world over for decades to come. It's the belief that military operations have objectives that conform to the rules of war, Geneva convention, what have you. There's also an implicit belief that those undertaking those objectives will do their best to avoid civilian harm. Thus people can accept civilian harm as an unavoidable consequence of achieving an important strategic/practical objective. Terrorists however seek to achieve their objectives specifically by harming civilians (sticking to the notion that terrorists are fighters seeking to bring about political objectives by using harm and violence towards a state's populace to exert political pressure on that state). Now of course this doesn't neatly conform to what we actually see, in certain cases like the demolishing of houses for example (or more controversially in destruction of Gazan infrastructure), the IDF is specifically aiming to cause harm to the civilian populace, arguably to exert political pressure on Hamas. However the messiness of real life doesn't affect the ideals people have in their heads and that dichotomy above is what people are thinking of when they apply those kind of judgements. The cases they see are generally explained along those lines. Hamas have tunnels? Hamas are terrorists so those tunnels can only be for attacking Israeli civilians. The IDF mortared some kids on a beach? An unfortunate mistake in the process of achieving legitimate military objectives.
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Apr 21, 2016 18:22
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It's because we're the good guys and we want peace and they're the bad guys and they want to drive us into the sea; everything the IDF does it does out of necessity, everything they do is terrorism born out of antisemitic malice. It's like you guys have never lived in an Orwellian dystopia or something.
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Apr 21, 2016 18:26
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Cat Mattress posted:Do they actually admit to that last part? Not openly, no. Usually they don't mention that these practices are used against Palestinians, and pretend that they are novel and unprecedented violations of human rights, despite being completely legal in the West Bank and routinely used against Palestinians. Sometimes they even claim that Jews are being treated worse by the Shin Bet than Arabs are. Sometimes they slip, though. quote:Honeinu’s Eran Shoretz said that the state had crossed a line in this case by preventing Jews suspected of crimes that were not as dangerous as Duma and certainly not “ticking bombs” from meeting with their lawyers. Ytlaya posted:This is the part I can't wrap my head around. Most of the people who defend Israel in conversations like this tend to genuinely believe that government-sanctioned violence committed by an organized military is somehow less bad than private individuals committing acts of terror. Usually I can at least understand the warped logic that leads to dumb right-wing opinions, but I honestly don't know where they're coming from here. If a person wants to believe something badly enough, there's no fact they can't twist or distort or rationalize to suit their worldview. It's not just the IDF that benefits from that. When an IDF soldier kills a Palestinian child, it's "a heroic soldier from the most moral military making an understandable mistake in self-defense under heavy pressure while putting their own life at risk to protect Israel". When a Jewish extremist cell kills a Palestinian family, it's either "a false flag attack by savage Arabs carrying out a blood feud and faking all the evidence" or "a devout yet misguided youth motivated by his love of Israel, who intended to scare the Arabs in revenge against them, but his minor unimportant scuffle with them accidentally got out of control". The justifications they offer are just an excuse for them to believe what they want to believe.
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Apr 21, 2016 20:27
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Main Paineframe posted:If a person wants to believe something badly enough, there's no fact they can't twist or distort or rationalize to suit their worldview. It's not just the IDF that benefits from that. When an IDF soldier kills a Palestinian child, it's "a heroic soldier from the most moral military making an understandable mistake in self-defense under heavy pressure while putting their own life at risk to protect Israel". When a Jewish extremist cell kills a Palestinian family, it's either "a false flag attack by savage Arabs carrying out a blood feud and faking all the evidence" or "a devout yet misguided youth motivated by his love of Israel, who intended to scare the Arabs in revenge against them, but his minor unimportant scuffle with them accidentally got out of control". The justifications they offer are just an excuse for them to believe what they want to believe. Though I have trouble coming up with examples, I want to say that this idea of military/government violence being less evil than violence committed by private individuals is something more widespread. After thinking about it for a bit, I can think of one other reason why this might be the case. In the case of military violence, the blame is distributed; the soldiers directly commit the crimes but aren't necessarily responsible for the broader decisions involved, while politicians and military higher-ups might be responsible for decisions but don't actually pull the trigger. It's a lot easier to get the "full package" of evil in the form of someone who independently plans and carries out violence, since you know exactly who to blame. This is irrational of course, but I can understand why people might feel that way psychologically.
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Apr 22, 2016 02:01
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Ytlaya posted:This is the part I can't wrap my head around. Most of the people who defend Israel in conversations like this tend to genuinely believe that government-sanctioned violence committed by an organized military is somehow less bad than private individuals committing acts of terror. Usually I can at least understand the warped logic that leads to dumb right-wing opinions, but I honestly don't know where they're coming from here. Part of it's causation, in that Israeli actions in Gaza are fundamentally in response to Hamas, even if you want to argue about the recent tit for tat, that's clearly the genesis as Israel has renounced territorial claims on Gaza. Secondly, there isn't a meaningful distinction any more between Hamas and a governmental actor, they are the elected government.
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Apr 22, 2016 04:07
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Kim Jong Il posted:Israel has renounced territorial claims on Gaza. In that case, under what authority do they control the border?
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Apr 22, 2016 06:28
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I don't think it's that strange for people to believe the IDF is in the right. The Israeli narrative has a pretty strong media presence, and even if you're savvy enough to steer clear of "they want to kill all Jews" and "most moral army in the world," you'll learn that Hamas uses human shields and provoked the IDF by kidnapping those teenagers and/or launching rockets at Israel. They even set up a propaganda department during Protective Edge to churn out posters justifying the bombings of major landmarks and civilian centers, and at least a dozen iterations of "Israel uses missiles to defend its people, Hamas uses people to defend its missiles." In addition, the IDF makes a lot of token concessions toward preventing civilian casualties. like dropping flyers telling people to evacuate without providing anywhere to which people actually could evacuate, or unilaterally declaring a humanitarian ceasefire after bombing a comm station and then being surprised when Hamas agents violate it. The UNHRC and Amnesty International seem to be the only major western agents to want to hold the IDF responsible for their actions, and I will admit that I am a bit baffled when people dismiss those out of hand. Kim Jong Il posted:Part of it's causation, in that Israeli actions in Gaza are fundamentally in response to Hamas, even if you want to argue about the recent tit for tat, that's clearly the genesis as Israel has renounced territorial claims on Gaza. Secondly, there isn't a meaningful distinction any more between Hamas and a governmental actor, they are the elected government. I'm sure you'll argue that it's ultimately their own fault, but I'm pretty sure a lot of recent Hamas action is in response to the fact that they live in a bombed out open-air prison whose borders are controlled by Israel.
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Apr 22, 2016 09:06
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 Happy Passover Jews!
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Apr 22, 2016 09:22
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Ytlaya posted:Though I have trouble coming up with examples, I want to say that this idea of military/government violence being less evil than violence committed by private individuals is something more widespread. People will always admire uniforms, it's deeply cultural.
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Apr 22, 2016 10:17
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It's not just military violence. Many people believe that imprisoning somone who is convicted of a crime is not the same as kidnapping, that a fine imposed by a court is not extortion or robbery, or that the death penalty is not murder.
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Apr 22, 2016 13:40
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hakimashou posted:It's not just military violence. Many people believe that imprisoning somone who is convicted of a crime is not the same as kidnapping, that a fine imposed by a court is not extortion or robbery, or that the death penalty is not murder. That's a pretty loving gross mischaracterization of what people are saying and completely ignores the complicated reality of the I/P situation. But you probably already knew that going in.
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Apr 22, 2016 13:53
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Ytlaya posted:Though I have trouble coming up with examples, I want to say that this idea of military/government violence being less evil than violence committed by private individuals is something more widespread. It's a convenient rationalization for the fact that, largley for various political reasons, people usually support the state actor over the civilian rebels. It's not by any means an ironclad thing. People are more than willing to condemn military violence when it's ordered by, say, Gaddafi or Assad, but not when it's ordered by Netanyahu or al-Sisi. Personal biases and even political convenience are things that can change people's whole perception. Kim Jong Il posted:Secondly, there isn't a meaningful distinction any more between Hamas and a governmental actor, they are the elected government. Hamas resigned from the government of Gaza and handed over power to the PA shortly after the 2015 war. Moreover, the Israeli government acknowledged this by entering into a Gaza reconstruction deal with the PA, implicitly recognizing their authority and control in Gaza.
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Apr 22, 2016 14:28
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hakimashou posted:It's not just military violence. Many people believe that imprisoning somone who is convicted of a crime is not the same as kidnapping, that a fine imposed by a court is not extortion or robbery, or that the death penalty is not murder. The last of these examples is the only meaningful analogy here, and also a lot of people believe that the death penalty is murder.
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Apr 22, 2016 23:17
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Apparently free speech violates the Torah and causes gay marriage and Islamic terrorism. I loving love the Jewish Press's constant screeds about how liberalism and freedom are destroying society, and this one's crazier than most http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/opinions/modern-liberalism-and-the-death-of-civilization/2016/04/27/ quote:Modern Liberalism and the Death of Civilization
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Apr 27, 2016 16:38
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A human being actually wrote these words. DONATE NOW Ultramega fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Apr 27, 2016 |
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Apr 27, 2016 17:07
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Everybody's ultimate destination is the grave, buddy.
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Apr 27, 2016 21:02
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Main Paineframe posted:Apparently free speech violates the Torah and causes gay marriage and Islamic terrorism. I loving love the Jewish Press's constant screeds about how liberalism and freedom are destroying society, and this one's crazier than most And yet... http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Court-convicts-Gay-Pride-Parade-stabber-Yishai-Schlissel-of-murder-451678 http://www.advocate.com/world/2016/3/01/hamas-leader-accused-gay-sex-killed
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Apr 28, 2016 00:18
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