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I kind of like "his teeth were nothing like a smile", it's short and elegant, and it shows him as baring his teeth like a wild animal with a thin veneer of civility. e: but I would absolutely love to see BotL give a counteracting example: a lot of his stuff is a little stuffy for my taste but I would love to see where he's coming from for contrast. What does our critic consider a good example of describing something feral and both supra- and sub-human in its aggression? fake e: I am being totally earnest and not hostile here, I promise. 
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Apr 20, 2016 21:24
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It's not, I think, that Rothfuss can't toss off the odd good one-liner, and not every line is going to be great, but he doesn't sustain the promise carried by the good ones.
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Apr 20, 2016 21:41
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"Where is Monzcarro Murcatto?" Like a man plunging through thin ice, the room was sucked into sudden, awful silence. That heavy quiet before the heavens split. That pregnant stillness, bulging with the inevitable. "The Snake of Talins is dead," murmured Sajaam, eyes narrowing. Shenkt felt the slow movement of the men around him. Their smiles creeping off, their feet creeping to the balance for killing, their hands creeping to their weapons. "She is alive and you know where. I want only to talk to her." "Who the shuh, poo poo does this bastard thuh, think he is?" asked the scrawny card player, and some of the others laughed. Tight, fake laughs, to hide their tension. "Only tell me where she is. Please. Then no one's conscience need grow any heavier today." Shenkt did not mind pleading. He had given up his vanity long ago. He looked each man in the eyes, gave each a chance to give him what he needed. He gave everyone a chance, where he could. He wished more of them took it. But they only smiled at him, and at each other, and Sajaam smiled widest of all. "I carry my conscience lightly enough." Shenkt's old master might have said the same. "Some of us do. It is a gift." "I tell you what, we'll toss for it." Sajaam held his coin up to the light, gold flashing. "Heads, we kill you. Tails, I tell you where Murcatto is…" His smile was all bright teeth in his dark face. "Then we kill you." There was the slightest ring of metal as he flicked his coin up. Shenkt sucked in breath through his nose, slow, slow. The gold crawled into the air, turning, turning. The clock beat deep and slow as the oars of a great ship. Boom… boom… boom… Shenkt's fist sank into the great gut of the fat man on his right, almost to the elbow. Nothing left to scream with, he gave the gentlest fragment of a sigh, eyes popping. An instant later the edge of Shenkt's open hand caved his astonished face in and ripped his head half-off, bone crumpling like paper. Blood sprayed across the table, black spots frozen, the expressions of the men around it only now starting to shift from rage to shock.
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Apr 20, 2016 21:51
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Hughlander posted:You mean like the only witness correcting him in his description of Denna? In two thousand pages of text we have a single comment that maybe the hero's waifu's beautiful nose isn't quite as perfect as the hero thinks it is. If that's your standard for an unreliable narrator then holy poo poo.
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Apr 20, 2016 21:58
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Hughlander posted:You mean like the only witness correcting him in his description of Denna? You know, I completely forgot about that moment in the text. But I don't think it undermines the problem that Kvothe is not presented as an unreliable narrator. Denna's looks are not what makes Kvothe a figure worthy of chronicling. It's the things that he does and the events he is a part of that make him legendary. Even with Kvothe's claim of having an exceptional memory, there is no myth about his memory--no Kvothe the Eidetic title--so there is not much to subvert to begin with. I want to approach the problem of the unreliable narrator from a different angle by looking at just one tale. As it's recent in our minds from BotL's posts, look at the story of Kvothe the Bloodless. Kvothe says he earned the title by taking a medicine that restricted his blood vessels to the point that he is whipped and does not bleed. But nowhere in the text is there another version of the tale of Kvothe the Bloodless. No one talks about how he earned the title by fighting on a battlefield and emerged without a wound or bloodstain upon his person. Nor do commoners whisper in the dark that he is bloodless because he is made of stone. There is no other story presented to the reader. In fact, there is no other way even presented in the text that Kvothe could even have earned the title Bloodless. So what textual evidence would we have to doubt Kvothe's version? There's no contrasting versions of the tale of Kvothe the Bloodless for the audience to ponder. No debate as to what the truth may be. TheIncredulousHulk posted:It feels like he's doing something smart with the framing story even if he really isn't when you examine it. That's the whole trick of these books, really. He can emulate the texture of good stories even if he isn't actually writing one himself, and apparently texture is enough for a lot of people. See also pretty much every example of his prose brought up in this thread Yeah, that's pretty much the issue. The word I've had bouncing around my mind while reading this thread is 'hollow'. Just so many things in the book seem to be hollow. I have to imagine that there is, even at the smallest level, some redeeming value to the work. Not to argue that popularity equals artistic value, but there is something that people are enjoying from the book. As I have some issues with the text and obviously would struggle with seeing a counter-argument, I would love to see the other side argued well. 3DHouseofBeef fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Apr 21, 2016 |
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Apr 21, 2016 00:31
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Atlas Hugged posted:Robert Jordan did this to describe his sword fighting forms and it was pretty effective. So did William Goldman in The Princess Bride and it was awesome.
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Apr 21, 2016 04:26
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3DHouseofBeef posted:Yeah, that's pretty much the issue. The word I've had bouncing around my mind while reading this thread is 'hollow'. Just so many things in the book seem to be hollow. I have to imagine that there is, even at the smallest level, some redeeming value to the work. Not to argue that popularity equals artistic value, but there is something that people are enjoying from the book. As I have some issues with the text and obviously would struggle with seeing a counter-argument, I would love to see the other side argued well. The impression I always had was that it was little more than Twilight for boys. In fact, I may have argued that very thing some hundred pages or so ago in this thread when I first tried to read it. It's a masturbatory power fantasy where the reader gets to imprint themselves on the special snowflake narrator. Kvothe is basically the mental image every bullied nerd has in their head growing up. He knows he's better, smarter, and more talented than everyone else and if it weren't for the system favoring those bullies, he'd be on top every time. A few good teachers just get how amazing he is, but everyone else is plain stupid or a jealous jerk and given the opportunity, Kvothe demonstrates time and time again that he really is the best, just like the reader would if magic were real (because naturally the reader would be great at it just like Kvothe) or he had a chance to play his lute in an inn. To me, that's all there is to it. That's why the story resonates with the particular audience it does. And that's why people who aren't trapped in that frame of mind are immediately disgusted by it. It's just like Twilight. Either you moon over Edward or you say, "Christ this is disturbing." Thoren posted:So did William Goldman in The Princess Bride and it was awesome. I haven't read the book, but in the movie version at least they're all references to historic fencers and their particular approaches to sword fighting. It's not just sharp dialog, it's actually grounded in something, which is why it feels so drat authentic.
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Apr 21, 2016 05:22
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LET’S READ THE KINGKILLER CHRONICLE CRITICALLY Part 20: “Ambrose shrugged.” In Chapter 43, “The Flickering Way,” Kvothe is guided by his iron-hard practicality to immediately head for the Archives after being treated. Since he’s now a recognised as member of the magician’s society, he is permitted to explore the inner parts. Unfortunately, the Archives desk is manned by Ambrose, who’s making unwelcome advances towards the beautiful librarian who guided Kvothe earlier. Kvothe mocks Ambrose’s poetry, and tells him that if he’s going to molest a woman, he should do it in an alleyway, as “at least that way she’ll feel justified screaming about it”. After a fair bit of humiliation, Ambrose begrudgingly admits Kvothe in, but demands a fee that costs him his lodging for the next term. Kvothe can’t afford a hand-lamp that’s required to explore the windowless "Stacks," so he accepts a candle from Ambrose. This whole time, the drug he ingested is causing him to lose his mental focus. Kvothe enters the “Stacks,” which is a rather simple place full of books and one giant door undoubtedly serving as a Chekhov’s Gun. Unfortunately, it turns out that Ambrose tricked Kvothe, as it turns out carrying an open flame here is expressly forbidden. Two attendants eject Kvothe and Master Lorren arrives to castigate him. quote:Lorren turned away from me, and made a brief, contemptuous gesture toward the desk. “Re’lar Ambrose is officially remanded for laxity in his duty.” (Also just look at this sentence: "I took a step waay from him without meaning to. "You mean?". It's a bit off, wouldn't you say?) Plodding to eat with his friends, Kvothe realises he’s exchanged the Archives for only a bit of notoriety, as stories are circulating about how he didn’t bleed during his whipping. Kvothe’s friends inform that Ambrose is a very powerful noble (and probably the “King” in “Kingkiller”) with more than enough clout to bury him, and Kvothe quotes some dreadful poetry about how he’s going to have vengeance. Three principal problems can be noted in this particularly bad chapter. First, there is incredibly bad plotting. Kvothe explicitly becomes dumber for this chapter. There’s never been an explanation why he turned so arrogant and impetuous (aside from that this novel has been badly stitched together from several manuscrips, as pointed out in the thread). For some reason, he has to act as quickly as possible to get into the Archives, even though he has all the time in the world. He even admits later on that he doesn’t feel as strongly about his family’s murder anymore. The plot doesn’t flow from the actions of the characters, and certainly doesn’t function as a character study. It’s lousy plotting and terrible characterisation. The only appeal it has in is for the reader’s sense of victimization. Aside from the bad plotting, it’s also clear that despite exalting wit and cleverness, Rothfuss has written only one witty and clever thing so far (Kvothe’s first conversation with Abenthy) This is what passes for standard wit in Kingkiller: quote:“What do you know of poetry?” Ambrose said without bothering to turn around. The irony is that all those clarifications ruin the rhythm of Kvothe’s lines. The third problem is Ambrose. Adding to him being a shallow, uninteresting, and inauthentic character, is that he is effectively a composite character. Along with Hemme, he has to represent all the institutional opposition to Kvothe in the University. quote:“I don’t see why I should be punished for his stupidity,” Ambrose groused to the other scrivs as I made my way numbly to the door. I made the mistake of turning around and looking at him. His expression was serious, carefully controlled. quote:“The point is,” Manet said seriously, “you don’t want to cross him. Back in his first year here, one of the alchemists got on Ambrose’s bad side. Ambrose bought his debt from the moneylender in Imre. When the fellow couldn’t pay, they clapped him into debtor’s prison.” Manet tore a piece of bread in half and daubed butter onto it. “By the time his family got him out he had lung consumption. Fellow was a wreck. Never came back to his studies.” Early into writing, Ambrose should have been broken down into several different characters who represent the classist, racist establishment. This would mean that Kvothe’s hardships aren’t entirely the result of personal grudges but of discrimination instead. The same applies to Hemme. But Rothfuss seems too enamoured with his ideas to ever consider if they make for a functioning story together. Kvothe has to kill a king, likely Ambrose. Adding an actual discriminatory establishment to the University would also undermine the Hogwarts fantasy and force Rothfuss and his fans to ponder upon actual inequality. Seeing as how no fan has ventured to defend Rothfuss’s portrayal of class, it is something they are ill-equipped to discuss or even consider. In Chapter 44, “The Burning Glass,” Kvothe enters the University’s manufactory where “Artificing” is practiced. He meets Master Kilvin, another cheery mentor figure. He talks about the possibility of “ever-burning lamps” with Kvothe, and gruffly invites him to study under him. Kvothe’s narration then jumps to him drinking with his mostly interchangeable friends. The narration occasionally makes these strange leaps, without even summarising, which makes no sense since Kvothe makes a point of narrating everything. Kvothe wants to rise up the ranks of made-up names, possible under the tutelage of one master. Kvothe settles on Elodin, the Master Name, since he still hasn’t given up his dream of mastering the storybook magic of “naming”. But Elodin is an eccentric genius who entered the University at the age of 14 and went mad. It’s nearly inoffensive, but not at all interesting. The characters are simply too flat, and this whole thing could be cut, like this piece of wit: quote:We were none of us particularly drunk. But then again, none of us were particularly sober, either. Our exact positioning between those two points is a matter of pointless conjecture, and I will waste no time on it. Chapter 45, “Interlude—Some Tavern Tale” returns us briefly to the present as Kvothe pauses. He comments on how quickly everything happened in the preceding chapters, and it turns out his corporal punishment was the beginning of his long and multifaceted legend, hence the epithet of “Bloodless”. Bast wonders why Kvothe didn’t go rescue Skarpi from the Inquisition, and Kvothe points out that this isn’t a story, but the real world and he can’t go save people with magic like in a fairy tale. quote:
In Chapter 46, “The Ever-Changing Wind,” Kvothe is looking for Elodin, who doesn’t actually teach regular classes. Elodin is very, very eccentric and doesn’t care for Kvothe, mostly because he’s too young and soft to study under him. To underline this, he takes him to the University’s asylum. There’s two standbys of asylum scenes: a traumatized man making cryptic comments and a raving, screaming patient. Some people go mad studying magic, including Elodin, who brings Kvothe to his old room. To show how he could escape his room, he displays the magic Kvothe knows only from stories by causing the wall to break at his command. They walk out to the roof. Kvothe still asks to be taught Naming, so Elodin asks Kvothe to jump off the asylum’s roof as a test. Kvothe takes the leap, but jumping from twenty feet because someone asked so turns out to be the wrong answer. All he's left with are heavy injuries. Elodin calls him an idiot, refuses to teach someone that stupid, and Kvothe is content to go under Kilvin’s tutelage. It is one of the few moments of pleasure in the book. quote:Elodin stopped walking abruptly and turned to face me. “Fine,” he said. “Go find me three pinecones.” He made a circle with his thumb and finger. “This big, without any of the little bits broken off.” He sat down right in the middle of the road and made a shooing motion with his hand. “Go on. Hurry.” quote:But he needed more, proof of my dedication. A demonstration. A leap of faith. But even that pleasure is undercut by banalities like the one high-lighted just above. ROTHFUSSIAN ANACHRONISMS quote:Elodin took a key from his pocket and unlocked it. “I like to stop in when I’m back in the neighborhood,” he said casually as he opened the door. “Check my mail. Water the plants and such.” ROTHFUSSIAN WISDOM quote:Ambrose stiffened and his arm slid off the back of the chair to fall at his side. His expression was pure venom. “When you’re older, E’lir, you’ll understand that what a man and a woman do together—” BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Sep 24, 2016 |
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Apr 21, 2016 17:14
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I don't think Ambrose is going to be the king he kills. Sim is a noble and does poetry as well, and I think Rothfuss is hack enough to hand wave a ton of lineage stuff and have Sim be the king that dies. During the first book I figured that Kvothe didn't really "kill a king" as much as "cause events that lead to a king being killed and Kvothe being blamed/attributed to it," but after the second book when every myth about him turned out to be 100% true I'm thinking he's gonna straight up gank whatever king it is he kills. With his stupid sword that is named after a break in poetry. Because it was the poet king. Because Rothfuss' foreshadowing is as subtle as a hand grenade.
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Apr 21, 2016 22:41
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I may not be a regular poster here (or anywhere for that matter) but I clicked in to see if there was any update on the third book. I'm astounded at the poster who was posted 5 pages of posts solely expressing how much he dislikes Rothfuss and his books. Even more astounding is that these pages include a complete re-read of a book he dislikes by an author he dislikes with literary criticism appended to each passage he finds offensive. Christ man, I bet you're a real blast at parties. It's just pulpy but popular fiction that's been relatively successful. You seem personally offended at this success and clearly have a lot of time on your hands. You could maybe write a fantasy novel that is popular and witty and sells millions of copies while at the same time adhering to whatever standards you find most indicative of "good writing."
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Apr 21, 2016 23:21
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I am the first person to ever enjoy reading Kingkiller.
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Apr 21, 2016 23:27
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:I am the first person to ever enjoy reading Kingkiller. You can't say that with jivjov around.
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Apr 22, 2016 00:40
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SpacePig posted:You can't say that with jivjov around. Yes he can. He has literary infallibility. Anything he says while discussing a book is objective fact.
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Apr 22, 2016 00:58
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Hughlander posted:Anything he says while discussing a book is objective fact. Well he does back up whatever he says with quotes taken directly from the book and no one (can or is bothering to) give counterpoints which is backed up directly with quotes from the book...so...unless someone does that it's "objective fact"....I guess. Anyways, a proper analysis on why the books are crap are better than pages of Rothfuss Isn't Writing The Next Book or the books are crap anyways so why care if he is writing or not.
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Apr 22, 2016 02:21
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Former Everything posted:Even more astounding is that these pages include a complete re-read of a book he dislikes by an author he dislikes with literary criticism appended to each passage he finds offensive. I'd unironically love to read a similar level of effort by someone who likes the books/thinks they are good. BotL's five pages at least have some effort put into them, Jivjov's five pages are just "well I liked it and that means it's good".
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Apr 22, 2016 02:29
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boneration posted:I'd unironically love to read a similar level of effort by someone who likes the books/thinks they are good. BotL's five pages at least have some effort put into them, Jivjov's five pages are just "well I liked it and that means it's good". Nah. The problem is that Kingkiller is, at the end of the day, the equivalent of three card monte with words. Lots of the individual phrases, sentences and paragraphs sound cool (I called out some of them earlier in thread), but there are some serious  moments if you take a step back. The trees are great but the forest doesn't exist (never using sympathy in Tarbean being the first massive problem we've hit)....I still like the prose about ∞ times better than Red Rising, though.
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Apr 22, 2016 02:41
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boneration posted:I'd unironically love to read a similar level of effort by someone who likes the books/thinks they are good. BotL's five pages at least have some effort put into them, Jivjov's five pages are just "well I liked it and that means it's good". Please do not misrepresent my stance. I like Rothfuss' books. I personally find them to be good. I don't care one way or the other if anyone else thinks that they are good or bad, but I have a problem with people trying to say "well it doesn't follow my preferred conventions of writing therefore it is objectively bad"
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Apr 22, 2016 02:49
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boneration posted:I'd unironically love to read a similar level of effort by someone who likes the books/thinks they are good. BotL's five pages at least have some effort put into them, Jivjov's five pages are just "well I liked it and that means it's good". ChickenWing has expressed interest in doing this: ChickenWing posted:You know BOTL, you've inspired me. Once I finish the book I'm currently reading, I think I'll try doing a counter-analysis alongside you where I give my dirty plebian opinion on the book in the same sort of chunks as you do. We'll see if reading your critical analysis doesn't infect my otherwise excellent opinion of this book on another read. And I hope they follow through with it.
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Apr 22, 2016 03:20
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jivjov posted:"well it doesn't follow my preferred conventions of writing therefore it is objectively bad" This is more or less the foundation of all criticism. We have metrics and conventions that we can use to compare and contrast and evaluate distinct things. It's not like he's picking and choosing which conventions to apply and he's even supplied examples of how things should be done from outside of Rothfuss's writing as supporting evidence. It's OK to like a thing jivjov. But that doesn't make the thing you like good. I like plenty of things that are bad and dumb, but I like them anyway. As an adult, I have the ability to objectively analyze the faults in something. However, it's my choice to continue to like something even knowing that it is stupid or poorly made. I also let things go as I realize how terrible they are. That embarrassed feeling you get when you listen to an album you liked in high school for the first time in years and you hope no one finds out you're listening to it on the bus? That probably means you don't like it anymore. You don't have to keep forcing yourself to do something just because you liked it the first time. People change. Things stay bad.
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Apr 22, 2016 03:41
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jivjov posted:Please do not misrepresent my stance. Then defend your position you loving retard. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 22, 2016 03:41
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It's obvious that BotL's posts are his opinion by the fact that he's posting them
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Apr 22, 2016 03:49
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CerealCrunch posted:Then defend your position you loving retard. Are ableist slurs really necessary?
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Apr 22, 2016 04:31
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Also the scene where Kvothe "defends" the librarian girl was the scene where the book finally lost me. loving embarrassing a grown-rear end man wrote that
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Apr 22, 2016 04:50
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jivjov posted:Are ableist slurs really necessary? Way to address the point, poo poo for brains.
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Apr 22, 2016 05:05
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:Also the scene where Kvothe "defends" the librarian girl was the scene where the book finally lost me. loving embarrassing a grown-rear end man wrote that And then everyone in the library stood up and clapped. Very quietly, it being a library and all.
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Apr 22, 2016 05:33
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Flattened Spoon posted:Well he does back up whatever he says with quotes taken directly from the book and no one (can or is bothering to) give counterpoints which is backed up directly with quotes from the book...so...unless someone does that it's "objective fact"....I guess. BravestOfTheLamps posted:Readers aren't convinced that Kvothe is underprivileged but formidably intelligent because that's not what the boos shows 90% of the time. If you are convinced dear reader YOU ARE WRONG his holiness has spoken.
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Apr 22, 2016 06:59
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If the dude adds in some weasel phrases and caveats every few paragraphs will you dorks shut the gently caress up about him posting his opinion too strongly and hurting your feelings
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Apr 22, 2016 07:24
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Former Everything posted:You... clearly have a lot of time on your hands. This is one of the most infuriating phrases in the English language and everyone who uses it can and should eat poo poo imo
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Apr 22, 2016 07:26
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LET'S READ THE KINGKILLER CHRONICLE CRITICALLY Interlude, part 1 - The Secret to Enjoying The Kingkiller Chronicle, via Nick Lowe quote:2. Clench Racing - Nick Lowe, The Well-Tempered Plot Device The same works for The Kingkiller Chronicle. The word of choice is shrug. An alternative is nod. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 14:56 on Jul 25, 2016 |
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Apr 22, 2016 09:08
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Hughlander posted:If you are convinced dear reader YOU ARE WRONG his holiness has spoken. Do you disagree with his analysis? If so, let us know why, moron.
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Apr 22, 2016 12:45
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Kvothe doesn't identify with the poor, even as a street urchin (!), and he's only marginalized by his own choices instead of any systemic evil. He is only poor in the sense that he doesn't have much money at hand. This is the text of the book, the reader will notice this. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 13:06 on Apr 22, 2016 |
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Apr 22, 2016 12:54
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CerealCrunch posted:Do you disagree with his analysis? If so, let us know why, moron. Hell no. I think he takes himself too seriously. I just love busting people's chops on a comedy forum, not sure why you are the anti-Jivjov. Getting so worked up over the thought that someone likes the book.
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Apr 22, 2016 13:08
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Why are you offended by someone telling the truth?
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Apr 22, 2016 13:15
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Hughlander posted:Hell no. I think he takes himself too seriously. I just love busting people's chops on a comedy forum, not sure why you are the anti-Jivjov. Getting so worked up over the thought that someone likes the book. What makes you think I'm worked up, idiot?
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Apr 22, 2016 13:18
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Hughlander posted:Hell no. I think he takes himself too seriously. I just love busting people's chops on a comedy forum You're not really busting chops or making jokes, just dropping limp one-liners with nothing new between them. Call him a pretentious reeking sack of pickled herring in the shape of a man if you want to (you wouldn't be wrong), but at least try to put as much effort into making GBS threads on him as he is in making GBS threads on the bad books.
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Apr 22, 2016 13:18
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Why are you offended by someone telling the truth? I have no problem with the message just the delivery. Replace reader with I in the quoted section and I wouldn't have given it a second thought. Turn it from objective to subjective and everything flows.
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Apr 22, 2016 13:26
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Hughlander posted:I have no problem with the message So nothing to worry about then.
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Apr 22, 2016 13:34
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BotL posts are the best thing about this thread, the second best thing is the dorks who can't handle seeing an artistic judgement that isn't gently swaddled in aimos. BotL never stop.
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Apr 22, 2016 13:41
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Peel posted:BotL posts are the best thing about this thread, the second best thing is the dorks who can't handle seeing an artistic judgement that isn't gently swaddled in aimos. But do provide more cross genre contrasts.
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Apr 22, 2016 13:45
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I just got back from a 30 day. Has that retard Jivjov been smothered to death yet under Rothfuss' corpulent thrusting into his every willing orifice? The Slithery D fucked around with this message at 13:59 on Apr 22, 2016 |
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Apr 22, 2016 13:53
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