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Hogge Wild posted:imo you should ask your friend for more theories Clearly I was just looking through wikipedia's chemical weapon entries, and there's something about Banting written under Canada's biowarfare entry. (No, there's no "citations", why do you ask:) quote:Of particular interest is that Canada's Sir Frederick Banting, the discoverer of insulin, served as an Army Major in World War II. There have been some claims that he was a key biological warfare researcher. Like many of his peers in senior positions during the Second World War, Banting had served as a Medical Officer with the Canadian Expeditionary Force in the Great War. This experience would have made clear to him the depths of cruelty inherent in modern warfare. He is credited with raising the alarm about the potential development of biological and chemical weapons by Germany in London in 1939. His influence on members of Churchill's administration may have contributed to a later decision to conduct germ warfare research at Porton Down. Banting was killed in 1941 in the crash of a Hudson bomber just east of Gander, Newfoundland, while en route to England for work related to his research on the Franks flying suit. This was about a year prior to work on Anthrax that took place at Grosse-Île, Quebec beginning in 1942.
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Apr 22, 2016 01:20
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HEY GAL posted:does the franco-prussian war count While not as organised I'm also suggesting the many Spanish partisan bands of the Napoleonic Wars during the French occupation of Spain, in some parts of Spain they were little more than bandits worse than the actual French mind you but some were certainly more professional volunteers from the population and got direct funding and support from both the British and Spanish governments.
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Apr 22, 2016 02:01
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HEY GAL, question for you. How did your chaps do religion? Do they take clergy around with them or just crash services wherever they happen to be at the time? If they've got travelling clergy, what does the clergy do when they're not giving services? Any comedy stories to match the duelling church parades of 1914? 100 Years Ago (Soon To Be Accurate Again) It's the 17th of April. Good News! The South African Horse has made it to Kondoa, despite the rainy season starting a couple of days ago! Bad News! They're now kind of hosed! And, in Mesopotamia, at Bait Isa for a few hours it seems possible that the miraculous advance on Kut through hellrain and mud can continue, and then a well-judged counter-attack puts paid to that idea. Elsewhere: the French air arm and the Royal Flying Corps are trying to war better; Sir Roger Casement has left Germany; Grigoris Balakian arrives at Ayran, and our day-to-day following of his adventures is at an end; it's the gift of a lifetime for Corporal Louis Barthas to arrive in the middle of a thunderstorm at a village called Villers-the-Dry; and Maximilian Mugge scotches any chance of us taking him seriously today by talking about the dangers of promiscuous intercourse between officers and men. I am not making that up. I wrote that a few days ago and I'm still giggling about it. On the 18th. I continue refusing to criticise General Gorringe for ordering hopeless attacks over impossible ground in the name of relieving the Siege of Kut, and Edward Mousley is about to be confined to bed with the ongoing pains in his spine; it may be a permanent assignment. In Africa General van Deventer captures Kondoa, but most of his division has now been condemned to squelch through a giant malarial swamp in East Africa in the middle of the rainy season; the Ottomans abandon Trebizond without a fight; there is an absolute shitload of railway construction going on around Albert to increase capacity to supply the Battle of the Somme; Louis Barthas is condemned to a soaking by Captain Cros because he and most of his battalion are not wearing the official horizon blue rain capes, and is no happier when he marches into a town full of PONTIs; and lucky bastard Herbert Sulzbach has been given leave, again. Maybe he'll shoot at something when he gets back? Trin Tragula fucked around with this message at 02:11 on Apr 22, 2016 |
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Apr 22, 2016 02:02
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Deteriorata posted:Vietnam was pretty much a civilian uprising against the US military. No it wasn't.
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Apr 22, 2016 02:38
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Throatwarbler posted:No it wasn't. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viet_Cong
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Apr 22, 2016 03:06
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Army_of_Vietnam
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Apr 22, 2016 03:40
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Edit: admittedly if I were born two hundred years earlier I'd be using the phrase "white man's burden" unironically, but so did some decidedly non shitheads. I find that unlikely.
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Apr 22, 2016 03:57
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Throatwarbler posted:No it wasn't. Yeah, there's a big difference between guerilla activity and what the US was afraid of when invading Japan's home islands. Persoally, I think that threat is overblown because those types of troops have an extremely bad record in ww2(and the Germans actually armed theirs pretty well.)
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Apr 22, 2016 03:58
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Civilians who are uprising aren't generally considered civilians any more, so it's not a good question.
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Apr 22, 2016 04:00
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See Stalingrad/Leningrad, gas Stalingrad/Leningrad. Those funny metal canisters that German soldiers are always lugging around hold gas-masks, right? So they were already prepared. Did Soviets issue masks with standard kit?
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Apr 22, 2016 06:22
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JcDent posted:See Stalingrad/Leningrad, gas Stalingrad/Leningrad. Those funny metal canisters that German soldiers are always lugging around hold gas-masks, right? So they were already prepared. Did Soviets issue masks with standard kit? I read* that the average Fritz usually threw his gas mask away after the early stages of the war when it became clear that no one was using gas. *: Stranger, Unknown, Esq. Some Book or Something. X ed. Vol. II. Series 13. Somewhere: Some Publishing House, 1800-2013?
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Apr 22, 2016 07:14
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Grand Prize Winner posted:I read* that the average Fritz usually threw his gas mask away after the early stages of the war when it became clear that no one was using gas. if the common soldier requires clear incentives not to throw his loving overcoat away once the weather gets warm, i can see that
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Apr 22, 2016 07:30
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HEY GAL posted:if the common soldier requires clear incentives not to throw his loving overcoat away once the weather gets warm, i can see that They kept the boxes, though. That way they could pass inspection and also carry a few personal items. And didn't your guys need to be policed so they wouldn't saw off the bottom of their pikes?
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Apr 22, 2016 07:39
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Grand Prize Winner posted:They kept the boxes, though. That way they could pass inspection and also carry a few personal items. there's an anecdote in the memoirs of Hans Ackermann, a cavalryman, where he was taking part in the sack of Magdeburg and some of the defenders showed up in a square with a small contingent of cavalry. Ackermann hoped the little group of pikemen near them would defend him and his horsemen, but they had all sawed their pikes clean in half so they could plunder more easily, so they were routed HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 07:46 on Apr 22, 2016 |
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Apr 22, 2016 07:43
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tassets were still a thing? I thought soldiers in your period were down to breastplates and maybe a helmet, and sometimes not even that.
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Apr 22, 2016 07:46
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Grand Prize Winner posted:tassets were still a thing? I thought soldiers in your period were down to breastplates and maybe a helmet, and sometimes not even that.
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Apr 22, 2016 07:51
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why do you even need to cut your pikes in half to plunder? surely these guys carry swords and daggers as sidearms
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Apr 22, 2016 07:56
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With regards to the Viet Cong, it is a matter of some debate as to whether the Viet Cong started out as a home-grown communist vanguard organisation that was eventually co-opted by North Vietnam after the losses suffered in the Tet Offensive or whether it was founded and controlled by North Vietnam from the very beginning. So calling it a 'civilian uprising' is pretty dubious. Plus the VC were organised into cadres and battalions with actual structure, it wasn't like random peasants were picking up AK-47s and shooting at Americans.
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Apr 22, 2016 07:56
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Phobophilia posted:why do you even need to cut your pikes in half to plunder? surely these guys carry swords and daggers as sidearms
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Apr 22, 2016 07:59
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HEY GAL posted:i have no idea why those dudes didn't just ditch the things, they'd have been swimming in money by the end of the afternoon so who goddamn cares about your pike, but that's what Ackermann said he saw Maybe they would have had to buy new ones if they didn't have any pike left. Or the officers and NCOs would had yelled at them. Weren't the pikes and armours owned by the Regiment? edit: maybe it would have been difficult to replace the pikes and they would have been sued? Hogge Wild fucked around with this message at 08:09 on Apr 22, 2016 |
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Apr 22, 2016 08:06
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HEY GAL posted:i have no idea why those dudes didn't just ditch the things, they'd have been swimming in money by the end of the afternoon so who goddamn cares about your pike, but that's what Ackermann said he saw A shortened pike maybe makes for a handy improvised pry bar? And is a good enough weapon to deal with locals who might object to it's use as an improvised pry bar maybe?
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Apr 22, 2016 08:11
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Half a pike is still a decent sized spear i guess. Not sure how it is all that more convenient than a full pike though in terms of carrying other poo poo.
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Apr 22, 2016 08:12
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Trin Tragula posted:HEY GAL, question for you. How did your chaps do religion? Do they take clergy around with them or just crash services wherever they happen to be at the time? If they've got travelling clergy, what does the clergy do when they're not giving services? Any comedy stories to match the duelling church parades of 1914? I've got some examples of religion at work. Here's a military funeral, from Hans WIlhelm Kirchhof's Militaris Disciplina: quote:"The one should be taken from there / or where he is / shot or wounded / dead / his squad-companions should take four pikes / each two should have their iron heads turned opposite from each other / bound together one or three times / so / that two pikes make one pole / bind the two poles together / under, over, and in the middle / with cords so close to each other / that the dead man with his Waht [bedding? bandages?] and clothing / like he died / can be laid between them and carried out. Before them go pipes and drums / behind go other squad companions / people from the country / and whoever wants to be there. Outside the camp on the assemblyplace / or wherever you go / a grave is made / and lay the corpse in it / cover it up. It'd be good / to say an Our Father with uncovered head: several is better / and sing a Holy Psalm along with it. The more esteem he has in the regiment / or if he held an office / the more music is brought before his corpse." Here's a military baptism, from the same manual: HEY GAL posted:
And here is what Melchior Gruppach (common pikeman in 1621, military governor of Zittau by 1641) does when he wants to pray:  After the city of Görlitz was taken on 23 Oct, both armies broke out for Silesia, but Obrist Lieutenant Melchior Gruppach went toward Zittau with eight companies from the Life-Regiment, which were lodged there to occupy it. This commandant had the watch assemble every day with flags flying and stand in the plaza in front of his quarters while he held public prayers with the Feld-Prediger, which deserves to be noted as something markedly good to do. The guy who wrote that is this dude, a Lutheran theologian, and he probably approves of this because the prayer service Gruppach is holding is Protestant. The thing where flags are present for religious services carried out in a military context is a thing for Catholics too, Catholic high officers will have that done during the Masses they go to--on top of which I've heard of people having the drums beaten during the Elevation, instead of bells being rung. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 09:20 on Apr 22, 2016 |
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Apr 22, 2016 08:26
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HEY GAL posted:i have no idea why those dudes didn't just ditch the things, they'd have been swimming in money by the end of the afternoon so who goddamn cares about your pike, but that's what Ackermann said he saw Stating the obvious, but do you have any idea what a Spieß would do to you, if you threw away your weapon, because you want to do X? More so, you don't throw away your honorable weapon.
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Apr 22, 2016 09:07
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JcDent posted:See Stalingrad/Leningrad, gas Stalingrad/Leningrad. Those funny metal canisters that German soldiers are always lugging around hold gas-masks, right? So they were already prepared. Did Soviets issue masks with standard kit? I guess Ensign Expendable could answer this more reliably, but AFAIK, yes, gas masks were included in the the Red Army standard kit, at least during the early war period. It wasn't uncommon for people to toss the masks and just use the handy bag, but that seems to have been informal standard procedure for a lot of armies in WWII.
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Apr 22, 2016 09:14
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JaucheCharly posted:Stating the obvious, but do you have any idea what a Spieß would do to you, if you threw away your weapon, because you want to do X? More so, you don't throw away your honorable weapon. So, did people care if you threw away your pike for a bit as long as you picked up a replacement later? Like soldiers leaving pikes behind to loot, then picking a random pike from the stash as they returned. Though I suppose there would be the fear of somebody snatching your weapon away and there being no readily available replacement.
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Apr 22, 2016 09:19
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Comrade Koba posted:I guess Ensign Expendable could answer this more reliably, but AFAIK, yes, gas masks were included in the the Red Army standard kit, at least during the early war period. It wasn't uncommon for people to toss the masks and just use the handy bag, but that seems to have been informal standard procedure for a lot of armies in WWII. Yeah, I've heard that everyone did it.
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Apr 22, 2016 09:21
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Cyrano4747 posted:No way to answer. It's deep in to gay black hitler territory. The nazis did in fact use gas on the caverns below the Sevastopol forest( according to Merridale, anyway), though it may just have been CS. wdarkk posted:IIRC the Japanese were really, really scared of US gas attacks, to the point that while they had their own gas program, they weren't willing to put it into use, even if the US forces used gas in isolated cases, to avoid creating an environment of full-scale gas warfare. Well, they did put it to use, against the Chinese. Tias fucked around with this message at 10:00 on Apr 22, 2016 |
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Apr 22, 2016 09:57
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Hogge Wild posted:Wouln't gasbombing cities have been an effective way to kill other side's civilians? This would depend on the level of the other side's civil defense. If most people in a city lived within a short range from a gas proof shelter then not so much. With regular and fire bombs you still did material damage even if population was warned of a raid. btw. I recently got a Väestönsuojelu gas mask from 1939, I'm fully prepared for WW3 now  
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Apr 22, 2016 10:17
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Nenonen posted:This would depend on the level of the other side's civil defense. If most people in a city lived within a short range from a gas proof shelter then not so much. With regular and fire bombs you still did material damage even if population was warned of a raid. nice!
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Apr 22, 2016 10:24
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though I wouldn't actually wear it since I don't know what's in the filter - some old gas mask filters contain asbestos.
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Apr 22, 2016 10:27
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Trin Tragula posted:HEY GAL, question for you. How did your chaps do religion? Do they take clergy around with them or just crash services wherever they happen to be at the time? If they've got travelling clergy, what does the clergy do when they're not giving services? Any comedy stories to match the duelling church parades of 1914? To add a bit: I don't know about any military examples, but in the Early Modern Era Catholics and Protestant (or sometimes Protestant/Protestant as well, when they were of different denominations) clashed regularly when it came to public processions. When Emperor Rudolf II had ordered a Corpus Christi procession to be carried out in Vienna for the first time in 15 years in 1578, several Protestant vendors refused to get their booths out of the way and were eventually forced to do so by Imperial guardsmen, which provoked a bloody riot (called the "milk war" after the amounts of milk that were spilled) in the middle of the street.  Here you can see the Viennese bishop being buried under the baldachin after its bearers felt compelled to draw their swords and beat up some Protestants, whereas to his right Emperor Rudolf just doesn't give any fucks about the mayhem all around him  Allegedly the Papal Nuncio even soiled himself in fear when a dastardly Lutheran charged at him, but there's of course only Protestant accounts of that.The best-known example of a riot caused by processions (which were a popular thing for Catholics showing off and a big part of Counter-Reformation efforts, and they were therefore seen by Protestants as deliberate provocations which they more often than not were - one (Lutheran) account from Augsburg even compares the trumpets and drums accompanying a Catholic procession with the pipe and drums being played when an army marches towards the enemy) probably is the riot following the St Mark processions of 1606 and 1607 in the mostly Lutheran Imperial City of Donauwörth: a small group of people had conducted a procession from the Benedictine monastery in Donauwörth to a pilgrimage church in a neighbouring village, but when they wanted to return to the city, they were refused entry: the guardsmen demanded that they roll up their processional standards, cease all singing and disperse as soon as they had passed the gates. Behind the gates a group of Lutheran citizens out for trouble waited for them and beat them up with hop poles, which led to the Catholics pressing charges against the city at the Aulic Council (one of two Imperial Supreme Courts). The Emperor (the very same Rudolf II as above, btw) threatened the city with the Imperial ban and ultimately carried it out when the same procession in the following year ended about the same way. Being subject to an Imperial ban basically meant being deprived of all legal rights and protection, and the Bavarian Duke Maximilian was tasked with carrying out the ban against the city. The overeager Max sent an army against the city which numbered almost four times as many soldiers as there were people living in Donauwörth, and therefore the city quickly fell and was forcibly recatholicised in the following years, which in turn was seen by Protestant powers in Germany as a very good reason to form a defence pact against Catholic aggression (the "Protestant Union"), which again led Catholics to form a pact of their own (the "Catholic League"), and this turn from "uneasy co-existence after the 1555 truce" to "both sides armed to the teeth and just waiting for the other shoe to drop" was one of the main factors in the beginning of the Thirty Years' War.  A mural in Donauwörth depicting the 1606 riot. While denominational conflict as a whole got a whole less violent port-1648, both Catholics and Lutherans turned to dealing with each other before the courts and/or passive-aggressive sniping instead; in rural and mixed-denomination areas of Germany it was common far into the 20th century that Catholic farmers were deliberately putting slurry on their fields to stink up the place for the Protestant Good Friday processions, for example. System Metternich fucked around with this message at 10:50 on Apr 22, 2016 |
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Apr 22, 2016 10:31
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Nebakenezzer posted:I know, I just noticed that! For gently caress's sake, ignore me, I'm been listening to a friend who doesn't distinguish these things. Your friend...doesn't distinguish novels from actual things that have happened?  That's gonna make for an interesting worldview.
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Apr 22, 2016 11:07
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feedmegin posted:Your friend...doesn't distinguish novels from actual things that have happened? It would be funny if it wasn't actually a very common thing. My dad thinks Tom Clancy got the "right idea", and I daren't ask what he means.
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Apr 22, 2016 12:38
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System Metternich posted:The best-known example of a riot caused by processions (which were a popular thing for Catholics showing off and a big part of Counter-Reformation efforts, and they were therefore seen by Protestants as deliberate provocations which they more often than not were - one (Lutheran) account from Augsburg even compares the trumpets and drums accompanying a Catholic procession with the pipe and drums being played when an army marches towards the enemy) probably is the riot following the St Mark processions of 1606 and 1607 in the mostly Lutheran Imperial City of Donauwörth Alternatively, Northern Ireland up to the present day.
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Apr 22, 2016 13:22
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Churchill savored the thought of gassing rebellious natives in the colonies. This was based on 1920s counterinsurgency theory that bombers could terrorize guerillas into submission far more economically than ground troops.
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Apr 22, 2016 13:23
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Panzeh posted:Churchill savored the thought of gassing rebellious natives in the colonies. How did he react when Italy actually did it?
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Apr 22, 2016 13:32
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P-Mack posted:How did he react when Italy actually did it? I don't know but he actually did use chemical weapons in the Russian Civil War.
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Apr 22, 2016 13:37
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spectralent posted:
A better question would be how effective such a mobilization would be. After all, other countries in WWII had similar waves of patriotic civilians unfit for military service preparing to take up arms against invasion, and I'm not aware of any of them being regarded as particularly effective. The British, for example, hoped for major civilian involvement in any German invasion of the British mainland, but I don't recall the generals being particularly optimistic about the chances of a shoddily-equipped pike-and-molotovs force of old men and children participating in military operations against a German combined-arms invasion force. Considering how much worse of a position the Japanese were in during 1945, I think the perception that civilians would have been a meaningful fighting force there is largely bunk.
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Apr 22, 2016 14:13
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Main Paineframe posted:A better question would be how effective such a mobilization would be. After all, other countries in WWII had similar waves of patriotic civilians unfit for military service preparing to take up arms against invasion, and I'm not aware of any of them being regarded as particularly effective. The British, for example, hoped for major civilian involvement in any German invasion of the British mainland, but I don't recall the generals being particularly optimistic about the chances of a shoddily-equipped pike-and-molotovs force of old men and children participating in military operations against a German combined-arms invasion force. Considering how much worse of a position the Japanese were in during 1945, I think the perception that civilians would have been a meaningful fighting force there is largely bunk. We can probably extrapolate from the invasion of Okinawa, which is a thing that did actually happen and involved a large civilian population. I don't think they killed a lot of American soldiers but a tonne of them certainly died, either because of the fighting or suicide.
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Apr 22, 2016 14:19
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