Patrick Rothfuss: Technical Difficulties

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BravestOfTheLamps: Oct 12, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Lipstick Apathy

There aren't many better portraits of aristocratic arrogance in genre fiction than Simon of Kilmirren and Jordan de Riberac in Niccolo Rising.

LET'S READ THE KINGKILLER CHRONICLE CRITICALLY

Interlude, part 2 � The Sheer loving Dearth of Imagination At Work Here Beggars Description

Abenthy:

quote:

Abenthy was the first arcanist I ever met, a strange, exciting figure to a young boy. He was knowledgeable in all the sciences: botany, astronomy, psychology, anatomy, alchemy, geology, chemistry�.

He was portly, with twinkling eyes that moved quickly from one thing to another. He had a strip of dark grey hair running around the back of his head, but (and this is what I remember most about him) no eyebrows. Rather, he had them, but they were in a perpetual state of regrowing from being burned off in the course of his alchemical pursuits. It made him look surprised and quizzical all at once.

He spoke gently, laughed often, and never exercised his wit at the expense of others. He cursed like a drunken sailor with a broken leg, but only at his donkeys. They were called Alpha and Beta, and Abenthy fed them carrots and lumps of sugar when he thought no one was looking. Chemistry was his particular love, and my father said he�d never known a man to run a better still.

Skarpi:

quote:

I waited until the last of them had left before I approached him. He turned those diamond-blue eyes on me and I stammered.

�Thank you. I wanted to thank you. My father would have loved that story. It�s the�� I broke off. �I wanted to give you this.� I brought out an iron halfpenny. �I didn�t know what was going on, so I didn�t pay.� My voice seemed rusty. This was probably more than I had spoken in a month.

He looked closely at me. �Here are the rules,� he said, ticking them off on his gnarled fingers. �One: don�t talk while I�m talking. Two: give a small coin, if you have it to spare.�

He looked at the ha�penny on the bar.

Not wanting to admit how much I needed it, I sought for something else to say. �Do you know many stories?�

He smiled, and the network of lines that crossed his face turned to make themselves part of that smile. �I only know one story. But oftentimes small pieces seem to be stories themselves.� He took a drink. �It�s growing all around us. In the manor houses of the Cealdim and in the workshops of the Cealdar, over the Stormwall in the great sand sea. In the low stone houses of the Adem, full of silent conversation. And sometimes.� He smiled. �Sometimes the story is growing in squalid backstreet bars, Dockside in Tarbean.� His bright eyes looked deep into me, as if I were a book that he could read.

The Shoemaker:

quote:

�Be right with you,� came a cheerful voice from a curtained doorway.

I looked around the shop. Light from the front window fell across a crowded workbench and dozens of shelved pairs of shoes. I decided I could have picked a worse store to wander into.

�Let me guess�� came the voice again from the back. A grandfather-grey man emerged from behind the curtain carrying a long piece of leather. He was short and stooped, but his face smiled at me through his wrinkles. ��you need shoes.� He smiled timidly, as if the joke was a pair of old boots that had worn out long ago, but were too comfortable to give up. He looked down at my feet. I looked too, in spite of myself.

[...]

He began to look through the clutter of his workbench. �Some of these young men from the court come in, fanning their faces and moaning about the latest tragedy. But their feet are so pink and soft. You know they�ve never walked anywhere on their own. You know they�ve never really been hurt.�

He finally found what he was looking for, holding up a pair of shoes similar to the pair I wore. �Here we go. These were my Jacob�s when he was your age.� He sat on his stool and unlaced the pair of shoes I was wearing.

�Now you,� he continued, �have old soles for a boy so young: scars, calluses. Feet like these could run barefoot all day on stone and not need shoes. A boy your age only gets these feet one way.�

Elodin:

quote:

Elodin was younger than the others by at least a dozen years. Clean-shaven with deep eyes. Medium height, medium build, there was nothing particularly striking about him, except for the way he sat at the table, one moment watching something intently, the next minute bored and letting his attention wander among the high beams of the ceiling above. He was almost like a child who had been forced to sit down with adults.

I felt Master Elodin look at me. Actually felt it, I suppressed a shiver. �Soheketh ka Siaru krema�teth tu?� he asked. How well do you speak Siaru?

�Rieusa, ta krelar deala tu.� Not very well, thank you.

He lifted a hand, his index finger pointing upward. �How many fingers am I holding up?�

I paused for a moment, which was more consideration than the question seemed to warrant. �At least one,� I said. �Probably no more than six.�

He broke into a broad smile...

Arwyl:

quote:

�You will provide excellent practice for one of my Re�lar,� Arwyl said cheerfully. �Your cut is a good straight one, with little chance of complication, but there is not much to you.� He prodded my chest with a wrinkled finger, and made a tsk noise with his tongue against his teeth. �Just bones and a little wrapping. It is easier for us if we have more meat to work with.�

�But,� he shrugged, bringing his shoulders almost to his ears, and back down, �things are not always ideal. That is what a young physicker must learn more than anything.�

He looked up at me as if expecting a response. I nodded seriously.

It seemed to satisfy him, and his squinting smile returned.

Kilvin:

quote:

I was trying to think up a polite response when my eye was drawn to something over our heads.

Kilvin followed my gaze up over his shoulder. When he saw what I was looking at, a grin split his great bearded face. �Ahhh,� he said with fatherly pride. �My lovelies.�

[...]

Wordlessly he led me back down to the floor of the workshop. Once there, he turned to me. �Hands,� he said in a peremptory way. He held out his own huge hands expectantly.

Not knowing what he wanted, I raised my hands in front of me. He took them in his own, his touch surprisingly gentle. He turned them over, looking at them carefully. �You have Cealdar hands,� he said in a grudging compliment.

[...]

He cut me off with an impatient gesture. �Come to me if you have any thoughts on the ever-burning lamp. If your head is as clever as your hands look�.� What might have been a smile was hidden by his thick beard, but a grin shone in his dark eyes as he hesitated teasingly, almost playfully. �If,� he repeated, holding up a finger, its tip as large as the ball of a hammer�s head. �Then me and mine will show you things.�

Threpe:

quote:

Count Threpe was one of the first to come to me. He looked shorter up close, and older. But he was bright-eyed and laughing as he talked about my song.

�Then it broke!� he said, gesturing wildly. �And all I could think was, Not now! Not before the ending! But I saw the blood on your hand and my stomach knotted up. You looked up at us, then down at the strings, and it got quieter and quieter. Then you put your hands back on the lute and all I could think was, There�s a brave boy. Too brave. He doesn�t know he can�t save the end of a broken song with a broken lute. But you did!� He laughed as if I�d played a joke on the world, and danced a quick jig step.

[...]

�You must play at my house some day,� Threpe said, then quickly held up a hand. �We won�t talk of that now, and I won�t take up any more of your evening.� He smiled. �But before I go, I need to ask you one last question. How many years did Savien spend with the Amyr?�

These are more or less the same character - a cheery older mentor figure who smiles. Some are gentler, some are more eccentric, but they are the same character.

BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Jun 7, 2016

# ? Apr 22, 2016 13:53

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# ? May 12, 2024 18:07

Oxxidation: Jul 22, 2007

A smile is a fairly benign gesture and its synonyms have various connotations which might not make them as blandly suitable in prose (grinning, too forthright, smirking, too unfriendly, leering, too rapey), so its overuse is more understandable than some other foibles, provided you don't bolt on tedious cruft like "the corners of his mouth pulled upwards in a smile" or whatever.

Shrugging, less so, unless you're reading a novelization of Questionable Content.

# ? Apr 22, 2016 17:16

latinotwink1997: Jan 2, 2008; Taste my Ball of Hope, foul dragon!

BotL, if your criticism of people enjoying the book because they don't know the finer points of literary criticism is true, what makes you think they will understand the critiques you have put forth? I feel like your posts are just pandering to the people that already know "the book is bad" because they already have that literary sense.

# ? Apr 22, 2016 17:32

BravestOfTheLamps: Oct 12, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Lipstick Apathy

I Own Soulz posted:

BotL, if your criticism of people enjoying the book because they don't know the finer points of literary criticism is true, what makes you think they will understand the critiques you have put forth? I feel like your posts are just pandering to the people that already know "the book is bad" because they already have that literary sense.

The secret is that all of my criticism is straight-forward past the high-minded literary exterior.

# ? Apr 22, 2016 17:53

Nakar: Sep 2, 2002; Ultima Ratio Regum

I Own Soulz posted:

BotL, if your criticism of people enjoying the book because they don't know the finer points of literary criticism is true, what makes you think they will understand the critiques you have put forth? I feel like your posts are just pandering to the people that already know "the book is bad" because they already have that literary sense.

Well they could read the criticism and think about it and draw their own conclusions. Literary criticism isn't some mystical thing into which a person must be initiated through a college English program. It doesn't require reading essays on Melville, or on anything really, a person can probably do it having never read any criticism themselves. Reading some on a book they're familiar with may help, of course.

All literary criticism is in the end is: Read a book, think about the book on a technical level (the language it uses, the structure of the plot, etc.), think about the themes or ideas in the book (is it saying something, what is it saying, how is it saying it with the technical stuff), find parts in the text that back up or contradict what you think it does and what you think it means, present those along with your argument about how the book operates in each of those areas.

Opinion in literary criticism arises from the value judgments about the technical aspects -- what makes language use good and skilled, how tight does a plot need to be, how much description is too much or not enough -- and from the interpretation of the meaning of the book -- what do you think it was saying, how well do you think it said it, did the technical work enhance or detract from the message or themes. Arguments usually revolve around portions of the text that have been picked out to back up an interpretation, and it's perfectly fair for two people to look at the same passage and disagree on what it means or how well it was done. It's also possible to use text to contradict an interpretation: If I claim that Narnia isn't a Christian allegory then busting out the passage from The Last Battle where Aslan is like "BTW I'm Jesus and this is Heaven" pretty much shoots my argument to poo poo.

Of course for this discussion to be productive or interesting the book needs to say something interesting, or say something uninteresting in an interesting way, or say something interesting in an uninteresting way, or say something terrible, or say nothing in an interestingly terrible way.

# ? Apr 22, 2016 18:17

jivjov: Sep 13, 2007; But how does it taste? Yummy!; Dinosaur Gum

The Slithery D posted:

I just got back from a 30 day. Has that retard Jivjov been smothered to death yet under Rothfuss' corpulent thrusting into his every willing orifice?

Are ableist slurs necessary?

# ? Apr 22, 2016 22:16

The Slithery D: Jul 19, 2012

jivjov posted:

Are ableist slurs necessary?

Do you have a bot programmed to post this identical sentence every time someone calls you a retard, or are you just boringly repetitive because you're a retard?

# ? Apr 22, 2016 22:38

No Dignity: Oct 15, 2007

jivjov posted:

Are ableist slurs necessary?

People wouldn't call you that word if it wasn't so insanely easy to get a rise out of you with it

# ? Apr 22, 2016 22:44

jivjov: Sep 13, 2007; But how does it taste? Yummy!; Dinosaur Gum

The Slithery D posted:

Do you have a bot programmed to post this identical sentence every time someone calls you a retard, or are you just boringly repetitive because you're a retard?

Please do not use ableist slurs casually.

multijoe posted:

People wouldn't call you that word if it wasn't so insanely easy to get a rise out of you with it

It is not about me personally. It is about the use of a slur being inappropriate in 2016 of all times. We don't go around casually calling people "friend of the family" or "kike", we shouldn't go around casually calling people "retard".

# ? Apr 22, 2016 23:39

No Dignity: Oct 15, 2007

jivjov posted:

It is not about me personally. It is about the use of a slur being inappropriate in 2016 of all times. We don't go around casually calling people "friend of the family" or "kike", we shouldn't go around casually calling people "retard".

But literally the only reason people keep saying it to you is because you'll respond to it like clockwork. If you don't want to keep seeing it bandied around every time you post, stop letting yourself get baited anytime someone calls you an idiot

# ? Apr 23, 2016 00:09

Benson Cunningham: Dec 9, 2006; Chief of J.U.N.K.E.R. H.Q.

The reason calling someone the n word is bad is because there is nothing wrong with being black. A black person is in every way equal to another person.

Being retarded is bad. No one would choose to have a below average intelligence.

Neither are nice to say, but if you can't understand the difference, you're loving retarded.

# ? Apr 23, 2016 00:24

BravestOfTheLamps: Oct 12, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Lipstick Apathy

Talk about the books you retards

# ? Apr 23, 2016 00:32

neongrey: Feb 28, 2007; Plaguing your posts with incidental music.

No, it is a lovely-person thing to call someone as an insult, and it is not his loving fault anyone else does not want to come up with some other insult. They are in no way morally or socially equivalent though and Jivjov is a colossal piece of poo poo to suggest they are.

# ? Apr 23, 2016 00:32

ulmont: Sep 15, 2010; IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE

Benson Cunningham posted:

Being retarded is bad. No one would choose to have a below average intelligence.

http://englishcowpath.blogspot.com/2011/06/euphemism-treadmill-replacing-r-word.html

ulmont fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Apr 23, 2016

# ? Apr 23, 2016 00:33

Benson Cunningham: Dec 9, 2006; Chief of J.U.N.K.E.R. H.Q.

You linked to a 404 page. Guess what buddy?

# ? Apr 23, 2016 00:45

ulmont: Sep 15, 2010; IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE

Benson Cunningham posted:

You linked to a 404 page. Guess what buddy?

It's me (missing "l" added). :negative:

# ? Apr 23, 2016 00:50

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

BravestOfTheLamps posted:

Talk about the books you retards

Please return this thread back to its true path and insult NotW some more

# ? Apr 23, 2016 00:52

CerealCrunch: Jun 23, 2007

HIJK posted:

Please return this thread back to its true path and insult NotW some more

NotW is down's syndrome

# ? Apr 23, 2016 01:16

Benson Cunningham: Dec 9, 2006; Chief of J.U.N.K.E.R. H.Q.

ulmont posted:

It's me (missing "l" added).

Read your link, I think you missed my point. I'm saying one IS objectively bad and one is not.

# ? Apr 23, 2016 01:28

ulmont: Sep 15, 2010; IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE

Benson Cunningham posted:

Read your link, I think you missed my point. I'm saying one IS objectively bad and one is not.

I got the point. The objective badness is why every time society picks a new word (to avoid a word that has become an insult) for being less than normally intelligent, the new word becomes an insult.

# ? Apr 23, 2016 01:51

Benson Cunningham: Dec 9, 2006; Chief of J.U.N.K.E.R. H.Q.

ulmont posted:

I got the point. The objective badness is why every time society picks a new word (to avoid a word that has become an insult) for being less than normally intelligent, the new word becomes an insult.

Oh god. My reading comprehension. I apologize.

# ? Apr 23, 2016 02:15

Thoren: May 28, 2008

I love these stupid books.

# ? Apr 23, 2016 02:27

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

BravestOfTheLamps posted:

Talk about the books you retards

Please end the slapfight k thx

Going to ask everyone to go re-read the forum rules, specifically

quote:

Make sure your post contributes to the discussion. Low content posts, empty flaming, personal attacks, or broad failure to use appropriate capitalization and punctuation will earn you a vacation.

If you do make personal attacks at least try to make them funny

Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 06:40 on Apr 23, 2016

# ? Apr 23, 2016 06:38

Hate Fibration: Apr 8, 2013; FLÃSHYN!

Nakar posted:

Well they could read the criticism and think about it and draw their own conclusions. Literary criticism isn't some mystical thing into which a person must be initiated through a college English program.

Wait, so that time I was bound and set adrift on a lake at full moon while screaming the name of every author in the western canon wasn't necessary?

# ? Apr 23, 2016 08:58

SatansOnion: Dec 12, 2011

Hate Fibration posted:

Wait, so that time I was bound and set adrift on a lake at full moon while screaming the name of every author in the western canon wasn't necessary?

The psychological satisfaction of hearty belly laughs at your expense is a kind of necessity.

edit: Come to think of it, those scenes Lamps has quoted, like in the Medica, felt really visually oriented to me. I mean, most of the description is all about what you see, like moving around the room or whatever a character's eyes are doing. That might be part of why reading it felt kind of lacking in descriptive power despite being so meticulous in detailing the state of the Master Healer's eyes and such :v:

SatansOnion fucked around with this message at 14:36 on Apr 23, 2016

# ? Apr 23, 2016 14:20

PJOmega: May 5, 2009

What's strange is these books work really well as audiobooks. It reminds me of a lot of the oral tradition storytelling records and recordings I went through back while toying with an anthropology minor.

That, and being unable to easily reread a passage to see how shallow it was.

Couldn't read them but they were an enjoyable companion for a road trip.

# ? Apr 23, 2016 16:05

jivjov: Sep 13, 2007; But how does it taste? Yummy!; Dinosaur Gum

PJOmega posted:

What's strange is these books work really well as audiobooks. It reminds me of a lot of the oral tradition storytelling records and recordings I went through back while toying with an anthropology minor.

That, and being unable to easily reread a passage to see how shallow it was.

Couldn't read them but they were an enjoyable companion for a road trip.

I never thought of it before; but that might be a deliberate stylistic choice, given the framing device is that Kvothe is orally narrating to Chronicler.

# ? Apr 23, 2016 16:46

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

jivjov posted:

I never thought of it before; but that might be a deliberate stylistic choice, given the framing device is that Kvothe is orally narrating to Chronicler.

It's too late for this one.

# ? Apr 23, 2016 19:20

Lottery of Babylon: Apr 25, 2012; STRAIGHT TROPIN'

jivjov posted:

I never thought of it before; but that might be a deliberate stylistic choice, given the framing device is that Kvothe is orally narrating to Chronicler.

The style is the same in the interludes where there is no such framing device.

So no.

# ? Apr 23, 2016 19:23

ulmont: Sep 15, 2010; IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE

jivjov posted:

I never thought of it before; but that might be a deliberate stylistic choice, given the framing device is that Kvothe is orally narrating to Chronicler.

Considering how much of the rest of the narrative is related to sounds, including the serious love given to musicians, storytellers and poets, I'm sure it's either a deliberate stylistic choice or just how Rothfuss thinks about writing (i.e., how the words sound and flow more than anything else).

# ? Apr 23, 2016 19:26

anilEhilated: Feb 17, 2014; But I say fuck the rain.; Grimey Drawer

ulmont posted:

I'm sure it's either a deliberate stylistic choice or just how Rothfuss thinks about writing (i.e., how the words sound and flow more than anything else).

Since it seems to happen all the time, well, I wouldn't like to hear him order in a restaurant. Cut-flower burgers in three parts.

# ? Apr 23, 2016 19:30

So It Goes: Feb 18, 2011

I'm kinda curious what "modern" fantasy books/authors BotL likes or thinks has merit, if any. I think he's mentioned Abercrombie before?

# ? Apr 23, 2016 21:28

Evil Fluffy: Jul 13, 2009; Scholars are some of the most pompous and pedantic people I've ever had the joy of meeting.

I'd be interested in seeing BotL do a breakdown on Words of Radiance but the only thing worse than Shallan's early chapters would be reading a detailed breakdown of why they're such a slog.

OTOH, Hoid is basically the kind of person Kvothe thinks himself to be.

# ? Apr 23, 2016 21:38

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

SatansOnion posted:

edit: Come to think of it, those scenes Lamps has quoted, like in the Medica, felt really visually oriented to me. I mean, most of the description is all about what you see, like moving around the room or whatever a character's eyes are doing. That might be part of why reading it felt kind of lacking in descriptive power despite being so meticulous in detailing the state of the Master Healer's eyes and such

I was thinking about this today and realized that the problem goes back to the comic book fanart posted a few pages back. Comic books can be literary but literature cannot be comic books, and Rothfuss's primary media consumption has primarily been tv, movies, manga, and superhero comics. He thinks completely in visual terms and doesn't read enough high-brow literature to understand how the English language works in a literary way, so all the dialogue fits into speech bubbles.

That's why these books feel like a DnD campaign, he's just describing what people are doing in cinematic terms which is how you get poo poo like "a grin that was nothing like a smile" or whatever.

Hm.

# ? Apr 23, 2016 22:09

Hughlander: May 11, 2005

Evil Fluffy posted:

I'd be interested in seeing BotL do a breakdown on Words of Radiance but the only thing worse than Shallan's early chapters would be reading a detailed breakdown of why they're such a slog.

OTOH, Hoid is basically the kind of person Kvothe thinks himself to be.

At least Shallan had some character development during the book. Better than some other characters...

# ? Apr 23, 2016 22:21

BravestOfTheLamps: Oct 12, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Lipstick Apathy

HIJK posted:

I was thinking about this today and realized that the problem goes back to the comic book fanart posted a few pages back. Comic books can be literary but literature cannot be comic books, and Rothfuss's primary media consumption has primarily been tv, movies, manga, and superhero comics. He thinks completely in visual terms and doesn't read enough high-brow literature to understand how the English language works in a literary way, so all the dialogue fits into speech bubbles.

That's why these books feel like a DnD campaign, he's just describing what people are doing in cinematic terms which is how you get poo poo like "a grin that was nothing like a smile" or whatever.

Hm.

Like I've said, this is the "Low" style.

The "High" style is just nonsense.

# ? Apr 23, 2016 22:23

Trammel: Dec 31, 2007; .

jivjov posted:

I never thought of it before; but that might be a deliberate stylistic choice, given the framing device is that Kvothe is orally narrating to Chronicler.

Nah, if he'd put any thought into how it would sound orally, the story parts might fit into a 10 hour session. The whole book is 40 hours on Audible.

# ? Apr 23, 2016 23:04

PJOmega: May 5, 2009

Hughlander posted:

At least Shallan had some character development during the book. Better than some other characters...

Hey, Bridge 4 (5?) had plenty of character development. The people who ran it? Less so.

# ? Apr 24, 2016 02:56

Hughlander: May 11, 2005

PJOmega posted:

Hey, Bridge 4 (5?) had plenty of character development. The people who ran it? Less so.

I meant Kvothe

# ? Apr 24, 2016 02:59

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# ? May 12, 2024 18:07

PJOmega: May 5, 2009

Hughlander posted:

I meant Kvothe

Who?

# ? Apr 24, 2016 03:45

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