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Andrast posted:I would say that if you are relying on being a magic pro as your primary source of income, you're already a moron. I would agree with this.
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Apr 24, 2016 22:41
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Errant Gin Monks posted:I would agree with this. Same, being "profesisonally good at magic" is really just a way to show off your top-notch analytical skills. There's a market for top-level magic players but its not Children's Card Games.
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Apr 24, 2016 22:53
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stinkles1112 posted:I'd venture to bet, very few. Appearance fees aren't really where the money is in pro Magic. And if 2 or 3 thousand dollars a year difference makes it unsustainable as a pro, then it wasn't a financially viable profession in the first place. This seems like a counterintuitive way to grow exposure for the MTG brand or get a new crop of people into the professional level. I mean, you have guys like Finkel who have a day job (IIRC he crunches numbers for a hedge fund) so the payout decrease won't make or break it for them, but it's going to be a big factor for younger pro-level people who maybe don't have stable income or jobs yet unless they latch themselves on to an established team (which puts a damper on creativity or competition). No one is surprised at WOTC doing everything possible to not make good decisions about MTG, but this just seems like blatantly ignoring common sense.
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Apr 24, 2016 22:55
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Developing the professional MTG scene at the very least has the upside of showing off a group of people that would be good to hire for set R&D. Also it's not a viable career because wotc has apparently convinced everyone that the pro tour shouldn't pay a living wage, but if you look at a company like OGN I don't see why an esports career should be significantly more viable than MTG pro.
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Apr 24, 2016 22:59
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rabidsquid posted:Or wotc could stop being ridiculously greedy and look at the PT as a loss leader that improves the visibility of their game and makes players want to buy more singles. Excuse me have you heard of a thing called late-stage capitalism 
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Apr 25, 2016 00:05
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Honestly the more I look at this game the more it seems like WotC hates everything I liked getting into the game. If you don't like draft or standard you can basically gently caress off, and that's not getting into Wizards Vision of ideal play
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Apr 25, 2016 00:13
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TheKingofSprings posted:Honestly the more I look at this game the more it seems like WotC hates everything I liked getting into the game. ~Plays 4 planeswalkers~ ~Flips Jace~ ~Breathes heavily~
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Apr 25, 2016 00:23
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Had 30+ people show up for standard at my local shop (we normally get ~10-15) last FNM. Got first place against a final round mirror (GB Aristocrats) when I boarded in Tainted Remedy.
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Apr 25, 2016 00:30
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TheKingofSprings posted:Honestly the more I look at this game the more it seems like WotC hates everything I liked getting into the game. Ever-changing Standard and Draft formats make Wizards money so it makes perfect sense for them. I'm with you on the fact that it sucks and I wish Eternal formats had a lower barrier of entry, but there's no incentive for Wizards to do so because there's no agreed-upon method of monetizing such formats and lowering those barriers.
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Apr 25, 2016 00:31
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C-Euro posted:Ever-changing Standard and Draft formats make Wizards money so it makes perfect sense for them. I'm with you on the fact that it sucks and I wish Eternal formats had a lower barrier of entry, but there's no incentive for Wizards to do so because there's no agreed-upon method of monetizing such formats and lowering those barriers. 10 dollar Eternal (or whatever Masters packs will be now) packs in Walmart seems to what Wizards is trying now. Sense I kinda doubt the super limited print runs of Modern Masters made Wizards massive amounts of money.
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Apr 25, 2016 00:34
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A great thing about Magic is that if you get bored you can play a different format for a change of scenery. If it's too expensive to do that, people will instead stop playing when they get bored. High secondary market prices do not directly affect WotC, but people leaving the game does. I don't think WotC understands that a large portion of their customer base that will spend lots of money on the game aren't tournament-level Spikes.
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Apr 25, 2016 00:38
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C-Euro posted:Ever-changing Standard and Draft formats make Wizards money so it makes perfect sense for them. I'm with you on the fact that it sucks and I wish Eternal formats had a lower barrier of entry, but there's no incentive for Wizards to do so because there's no agreed-upon method of monetizing such formats and lowering those barriers. I guarantee you there is demand for reprints at a mostly-reasonable price.
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Apr 25, 2016 00:39
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ThePeavstenator posted:I don't think WotC understands that a large portion of their customer base that will spend lots of money on the game aren't tournament-level Spikes. WotC has literally been telling you that tournament players are like 1% of their sales base for years how the gently caress did you ignore them SHOUTING IT IN YOUR FACE FOR A DECADE to come up with this statement.
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Apr 25, 2016 00:40
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Toshimo posted:WotC has literally been telling you that tournament players are like 1% of their sales base for years how the gently caress did you ignore them SHOUTING IT IN YOUR FACE FOR A DECADE to come up with this statement. Wizards telling us something and Wizards understanding those selfsame truths is, unfortunately, not the same thing.
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Apr 25, 2016 00:41
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That SaffronOlive article from the beginning of the year is super relevant now http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/the-real-reason-splinter-twin-got-banned
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Apr 25, 2016 00:44
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ThePeavstenator posted:I don't think WotC understands that a large portion of their customer base that will spend lots of money on the game aren't tournament-level Spikes. Wasn't it stated by WotC that only 10-15% of people who play MtG even have DCI numbers? They've been open about this for at least a decade. Edit: Curse you Toshimo, you beautiful bastard.
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Apr 25, 2016 00:45
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ThePeavstenator posted:I don't think WotC understands that a large portion of their customer base that will spend lots of money on the game aren't tournament-level Spikes. I've heard a bunch of talk about how this is obviously the wrong move or clearly stupid, but I don't have any idea on what each of those dollars that goes out on each Pro Tour buys them. Maybe it's someone coming in, seeing a shitload of red in a book with no obvious ties to any black and shortsightedly deciding to cut it without any idea of the consequences, but maybe it's something that's been in the works for a while by someone who has a pretty good idea of where advertising money is best spent and where most of their revenue actually comes from.
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Apr 25, 2016 00:46
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Toshimo posted:WotC has literally been telling you that tournament players are like 1% of their sales base for years how the gently caress did you ignore them SHOUTING IT IN YOUR FACE FOR A DECADE to come up with this statement. Yeah they say a lot of things, doesn't mean they understand it though. They're terrified of upsetting the secondary market (a large portion of which is that 1% of the customer base) even though I bet like 80% of the FNM players at my store would play or at least try Legacy and Modern if they could get decks that didn't cost the same as a used car.
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Apr 25, 2016 00:46
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Death Bot posted:I guarantee you there is demand for reprints at a mostly-reasonable price. And I stated as such in the post you quoted, at least for my own feelings. But again, Wizards has yet to figure out a way to produce reasonably-priced reprints in a way that makes everyone happy. The ___ Masters sets are getting there but $10/pack is really steep especially when there is a lot of fluff for draft purposes, though I will admit that I've heard good things about both Modern Masters draft formats. But I'd bet dollars to donuts that if the Masters packs were $4 apiece, or contained much more valuable reprints, the collectors and mtgfinance crew would rebel, or whatever the unkempt shut-in version of rebellion is.
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Apr 25, 2016 00:46
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It's so bizarre to me to see people defending wizards of the coast practices all the time by saying "yeah but profit," are you a share holder or something? It'd be one thing if this was apologia for a barely in business small RPG company or something that is on the verge of shutting down, but this is a company with a ton of cash squeezing it out of you constantly and making the game worse in the same process.
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Apr 25, 2016 00:48
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C-Euro posted:And I stated as such in the post you quoted, at least for my own feelings. But again, Wizards has yet to figure out a way to produce reasonably-priced reprints in a way that makes everyone happy. The ___ Masters sets are getting there but $10/pack is really steep especially when there is a lot of fluff for draft purposes, though I will admit that I've heard good things about both Modern Masters draft formats. But I'd bet dollars to donuts that if the Masters packs were $4 apiece, or contained much more valuable reprints, the collectors and mtgfinance crew would rebel, or whatever the unkempt shut-in version of rebellion is. Or they'd strangle the supply at the distribution level, like how MM1 was well over MSRP.
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Apr 25, 2016 00:48
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rabidsquid posted:It's so bizarre to me to see people defending wizards of the coast practices all the time by saying "yeah but profit,"
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Apr 25, 2016 00:51
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C-Euro posted:But I'd bet dollars to donuts that if the Masters packs were $4 apiece, or contained much more valuable reprints, the collectors and mtgfinance crew would rebel, or whatever the unkempt shut-in version of rebellion is. It's called "engage in impotent rage on Reddit." Counterpoint: screw those people.
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Apr 25, 2016 00:54
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odiv posted:Quote(s)? If one of them is me, it wasn't meant as a defence. All you have to do is look at twitter today. Even fairly reasonable people like Wrongwaygoback are saying "Well I have no idea what the end goal of this, but maybe it's actually okay and even good!" Plenty of other people are saying "GOOD WHY SHOULD PROS GET TO MAKE MONEY" which is just, I understand its usual crab bucket poo poo but I literally have no idea why people always side with corporations.
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Apr 25, 2016 00:54
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rabidsquid posted:It's so bizarre to me to see people defending wizards of the coast practices all the time by saying "yeah but profit," are you a share holder or something? It'd be one thing if this was apologia for a barely in business small RPG company or something that is on the verge of shutting down, but this is a company with a ton of cash squeezing it out of you constantly and making the game worse in the same process. I don't like their practices, I'm just not surprised that they're putting more effort and resources into the stuff that makes them more money. The thing about playing primarily Modern is that I'm not really giving my Magic bux to Wizards, though you can bet your rear end I'd buy quite a few Masters packs at $5 a pop. E: I also don't follow the pro Magic scene at all so whatever shakeups occur there fall way outside my field of view.
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Apr 25, 2016 00:59
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rabidsquid posted:All you have to do is look at twitter today. Even fairly reasonable people like Wrongwaygoback are saying "Well I have no idea what the end goal of this, but maybe it's actually okay and even good!" we define ourselves with Brands also i think people have gotten jerked around by wizards for so long that they stopped directing impotent rage at them
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Apr 25, 2016 01:01
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PJOmega posted:Wasn't it stated by WotC that only 10-15% of people who play MtG even have DCI numbers? They've been open about this for at least a decade. I see this brought up and it always makes me wonder "how could they really be able to track this?" WER and other tools give them real numbers on events, but everything else is just a guess based on polls or other 3rd party paid research? I feel like if 4 out of 5 people who actively play magic don't have a dci number I feel like it would be more obvious to everyone , not just wotc. Do any of you have experience where the majority of the magic players you know are just kitchen table? Not only does that seem far fetched to me it also seems like even though they outnumber the fnm, they would still make up a small % of sales compared to their fnm counterparts.
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Apr 25, 2016 01:02
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WotC should try to make the game affordable and get the FNM-level players involved in as many formats as possible. These players make up area communities, spend the most money on product, and bring others into the game.
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Apr 25, 2016 01:03
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WotC loving up tournament play is going to have the same poo poo-laden trickle-down effect to the casuals that Blizzard had to deal with when they completely poo poo the bed on raiding and cost themselves 1/3 of their subscribers.
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Apr 25, 2016 01:07
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prerelease numbers vs. fnm/etc for the area for one. phoenix has a decent number of kitchentable players that will show up for preres but play nothing else
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Apr 25, 2016 01:07
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Wal-Mart sells Magic and at a higher price than my FNM does. Someone is buying it. I don't know that we can say definitively that players, collectors, and, most importantly, purchasers who aren't at least "FNM level" make up a small percentage of sales.
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Apr 25, 2016 01:11
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Toshimo posted:WotC loving up tournament play is going to have the same poo poo-laden trickle-down effect to the casuals that Blizzard had to deal with when they completely poo poo the bed on raiding and cost themselves 1/3 of their subscribers. Blizzard loving up their competitive scene / pissing off OGN really ruined SC2 and it took years to begin repairing, Hearthstone is starting to see some good coverage and depending on how much Riot wants to keep antagonizing OGN HotS might start getting decent coverage too.
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Apr 25, 2016 01:12
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suicidesteve posted:It's called "engage in impotent rage on Reddit." Well yeah. ThePeavstenator posted:WotC should try to make the game affordable and get the FNM-level players involved in as many formats as possible. These players make up area communities, spend the most money on product, and bring others into the game. Wizards kind of did this by allowing pretty much any format to be played at a sanctioned FNM, they just put the impetus on the stores to schedule FNMs in formats besides Standard. The store nearest to me does its house-made Commander league as FNM every other week, with Modern and Pauper(!) FNMs to space them out. C-Euro fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Apr 25, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 01:12
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Oh right! That's a pretty recent (and good!) change. I should finish my cube finally so I can bring it in and hopefully not get robbed.
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Apr 25, 2016 01:14
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odiv posted:Oh right! That's a pretty recent (and good!) change. I should finish my cube finally so I can bring it in and hopefully not get robbed. RIP IN PEACE THE CHEWB
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Apr 25, 2016 01:16
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odiv posted:Wal-Mart sells Magic and at a higher price than my FNM does. Someone is buying it. A small part of my career was a place that did data analytics for retail businesses. Selling data analysis of stuff like "who your customers really are" and forecasting the best locations to put them in spots their customer base would shop. There was a lot of good solid, practical application in the way the data is gathered and read but when it came down to it, our customers were really looking to have someone confirm their preconceived opinions. My company, just like every other company in this business, profited over giving their customers what they wanted even if it was bullshit. The data can always be made to say whatever it is you want it to say. It can fit the narrative you that your executive leadership and investors want. Pre-releases are definitely an event that fills a room with people who don't show up to fnm. Its also the easiest event for the non-fnm types to go so this isn't surprising.
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Apr 25, 2016 01:30
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Sickening posted:Do any of you have experience where the majority of the magic players you know are just kitchen table? Not only does that seem far fetched to me it also seems like even though they outnumber the fnm, they would still make up a small % of sales compared to their fnm counterparts. At my university's magic club, the majority of players don't even have a DCI number. There are several completely casual players who buy a box of every single new set.
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Apr 25, 2016 02:55
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Sickening posted:I see this brought up and it always makes me wonder "how could they really be able to track this?" WER and other tools give them real numbers on events, but everything else is just a guess based on polls or other 3rd party paid research? I feel like if 4 out of 5 people who actively play magic don't have a dci number I feel like it would be more obvious to everyone , not just wotc. Maro told a story, I can't remember if it was blog, site, or podcast so I can't source it, but the story goes like this. Time Spiral was out. High level events had great attendance, players who drafted loved the format, pro's were happy, etc etc. Well received from all the public feedback they were getting. Yet, sales were down. They didn't understand how people could be enjoying the set, yet sales weren't good. They did studies and focus group testing etc. and that is what led them to the data that it was to complicated for casual players. See WOTC knows more people buy magic than the DCI holding players that engage in their official formats etc. They just didn't realize the scope. Their data and sales info led them to estimate something like 80-85% of the product they sell was just people who never engaged in magic at any "official" level. Basically they figure most people who buy poo poo are kitchen table players. The TSP problem was TSP was based on a sort of magic greatest hits idea, it had like 40 some mechanics across the block etc. Players who were enfranchised loved that poo poo, people who open packs to add to their sweet whatever kitchen table decks were just confused and didn't like it. That is what WOTC thinks, that the majority of product sold is to kitchen table casuals.
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Apr 25, 2016 03:16
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jassi007 posted:Maro told a story, I can't remember if it was blog, site, or podcast so I can't source it, but the story goes like this. Time Spiral was out. High level events had great attendance, players who drafted loved the format, pro's were happy, etc etc. Well received from all the public feedback they were getting. Yet, sales were down. They didn't understand how people could be enjoying the set, yet sales weren't good. They did studies and focus group testing etc. and that is what led them to the data that it was to complicated for casual players. See WOTC knows more people buy magic than the DCI holding players that engage in their official formats etc. They just didn't realize the scope. Their data and sales info led them to estimate something like 80-85% of the product they sell was just people who never engaged in magic at any "official" level. Basically they figure most people who buy poo poo are kitchen table players. The TSP problem was TSP was based on a sort of magic greatest hits idea, it had like 40 some mechanics across the block etc. Players who were enfranchised loved that poo poo, people who open packs to add to their sweet whatever kitchen table decks were just confused and didn't like it. That is what WOTC thinks, that the majority of product sold is to kitchen table casuals. Maybe it took longer than they thought to recover from what the giant poo poo show Kamigawa Block was? There are tons of factors that lead to drop in sales and it might not have anything to do with event players vs everything else. 2007 playerbase vs the 2016 playerbase might be hugely different. Focus groups and other stuff are great. There is definitely some useful data to be had if you are consistent and competent with your analysis. Considering this is WOTC, I can't give them any benefit of the doubt with competency in that regard. I would put their odds at pretty low for them to know what the gently caress they are doing.
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Apr 25, 2016 03:25
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It's a game for babies, focus grouped to near total blandness and played safe at all times. Any joy you get from it is purely incidental.
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Apr 25, 2016 03:30
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