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Neurolimal posted:It's saying that the nature of the Jedi prevented them from ending slavery without compromising themselves and causing far greater long-term harm (assuming a universe where Anakin is never recruited) than allowing the people to govern themselves. Christ, think about what you're saying here. Why is it absurd to have police that fight inequality? Why would you wait 80 years in the hopes that slavery would just go away 'on its own'? If 'the nature of the Jedi prevented them from ending slavery without compromising themselves', then the Jedi have failed miserably at doing their one job. And you're supporting them.
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 05:28 |
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# ? May 30, 2024 14:16 |
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" There is a natural order to this world, and those who try to upend it do not fare well. This movement will never survive; if you join them, you and your entire family will be shunned. At best, you will exist a pariah to be spat at and beaten-at worst, to be lynched or crucified. And for what? For what? No matter what you do it will never amount to anything more than a single drop in a limitless ocean."
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 05:29 |
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Christ, think about what you're saying here. Why is it absurd for police to fight inequality? Why would you wait 80 years in the hopes that slavery would just go away on its own? Neurolimal posted:I mean consider what you're saying SMG: you're saying the republic's generals are wrong for not bringing I'm sure the PT would have been totally different if someone told Lucas' about the state of slavery and womens' rights in the middle east.
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 05:29 |
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Neurolimal posted:I'm sure the PT would have been totally different if someone told Lucas' about the state of slavery and womens' rights in the middle east. Wait, hold up. You can't actually think that the 'war on terror' was an emancipatory project launched by America's radical left. You don't actually think that, do you?
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 05:36 |
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Tezzor. Yes, I did say those things. I think they exist because the author was an idiot making decisions without considering their consequences. I think his thought process was something very similar to this: "Ok, this is like a fairy tale, so we need royalty and beauty. Hey, I vacationed in Italy, that was pretty, let's use that. Padme being a princess is too similar to Leia and it says she really isn't the leader, so let's make her a Queen. I can't make her too old though because she's got to marry Anakin later and Anakin's a kid in this because these are kids movies and I'll sell more backpacks that way and I can put my friends' kids in the movie. But wait, she's supposed to be for democracy. Ok so the Naboo elect their queen. There we go. Moving on." You think it is because he is a genius deconstructionist. Go right ahead, but the only reason to believe Explanation 2 is that you're a fanboy.
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 05:37 |
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Wait, hold up. I'm saying that saying the Jedi should have just invaded and subjugated worlds to enforce equality is the exact opposite of what Lucas and the majority of people's readings ITT were going for, intending, or want. I don't want the police taking over our government to enforce their personal moral code on us. And through the power of the Golden Rule I can apply this same line of thought to invading other countries over percieved injustices, and apply it abstractly to the world of Stars Wars.
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 05:41 |
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Actually, those weren't the options. The Right Thing To Do Was To Give Up And Let Evil Triumph. interesting Reading, supermechagodzilla.
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 05:41 |
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:That's literally what happens. Windu had the option, at that moment, to admit that he was after power: more power for the Jedi Order. More power for the Republic. More power for himself. (The Sith and the Jedi are similar in almost every way, including their quest for greater power). Because the way to kill Palpatine is the give up your power. Tezzor posted:Samuel Jackson: (TPM second commentary track, 1:34:30) "In the Jedi Council he's one of the wizened people. I think it's important that you have people that are able to analyse and look at things kind of dispassionately, in a way that he does, that uses reason...and he has this sense of right and wrong, you know, there's no cloudy space, it's very cut and dried for him."
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 05:42 |
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I've never watched the commentary. Thats pretty cool and, I feel, supports my reading of the Jedi. Also more respect for Tezzor, since despite his shitpost style he's gone through the effort to watch all the films and their commentary tracks before judging the PT wanting.
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 05:44 |
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Neurolimal posted:I've never watched the commentary. Thats pretty cool and, I feel, supports my reading of the Jedi. Read the entire post that is linked in the quote, it comprehensively demolishes these idiots to the point that their only coherent response so far is to argue that the commentary tracks are a ruse to trick us.
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 05:48 |
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Tezzor posted:Read the entire post that is linked in the quote, it comprehensively demolishes these idiots to the point that their only coherent response so far is to argue that the commentary tracks are a ruse to trick us. Has anyone said that?
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 05:53 |
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Lord Krangdar posted:Has anyone said that? Yes, repeatedly, Ferrinus explicitly and I think SMG implictly although I cannot be 100% sure because the language he speaks is not technically English
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 05:58 |
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All of those quotes confirm that Mace Windu has a strong sense of his own rightness, sees morality in cut-and-dried, black-and-white terms. It makes perfect sense that he would therefore decide to simply execute a helpless bad guy, having decided that was the best thing to do at the time. Unfortunately, because the actual situation was a fraught one, Windu's uncomplicated and decisive action, his conviction in his own rightness, led to his downfall. I mean, it doesn't matter, obviously. Jackson could be loving with us or stupid or whatever, and the movie would be the same no matter what its actors said about it offscreen. But it boggles my mind that not only are you so desperate for an authority to follow that you can't imagine talking about a movie except in terms of what professionals want you to think about it, but you also triumphantly cite those professionals when they support the very thing you're trying to dispute. ...hey, where are you going? Are you running away again? No, stop, don't reach for the asterisks, you're stronger than this!
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 06:01 |
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Tezzor posted:Yes, repeatedly, Ferrinus explicitly and I think SMG implictly although I cannot be 100% sure because the language he speaks is not technically English You're the one who believes that the commentary tracks are foul deceptions, since you implicitly agree with everything people actually say about the contents of the movie but adamantly believe that those contents and the commentary tracks don't align.
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 06:03 |
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Ferrinus posted:All of those quotes confirm that Mace Windu has a strong sense of his own rightness, sees morality in cut-and-dried, black-and-white terms. It makes perfect sense that he would therefore decide to simply execute a helpless bad guy, having decided that was the best thing to do at the time. Unfortunately, because the actual situation was a fraught one, Windu's uncomplicated and decisive action, his conviction in his own rightness, led to his downfall. No his downfall was when the evil guy shot him out the window with magic lightning.
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 06:04 |
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lfield posted:No his downfall was when the evil guy shot him out the window with magic lightning. I said "led to his downfall", not "literally constituted his downfall".
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 06:05 |
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Neurolimal posted:I'm saying that saying the Jedi should have just invaded and subjugated worlds to enforce equality is the exact opposite of what Lucas and the majority of people's readings ITT were going for, intending, or want. Ending slavery isn't 'a personal moral code'. Slavery is not a 'perceived injustice', like it's a matter of opinion. Not being enslaved is a basic human right. One of the police's many jobs is to prevent people from being enslaved. Since droids are people, it is the job of the Republic police to free the droids in the Republic. If the police instead enforce the institution of slavery, that is called injustice. If droids are not legally people, then the law is unjust and must be changed. I'm surprised to be explaining this. Now, I think you're confused because you believe the war on terror was actually about bringing justice to the world. It was not. The war on terror was not launched in defense of the poor. It was launched in defense of liberal capitalism, and to extend its influence. I have never called for the Republic to invade Tatooine. The Republic is the Empire.
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 06:07 |
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Mace Windu was the good guy. He was fighting the old evil guy and got thrown out of the window with force lightning and died. You should try watching the scene again, maybe with the commentary tracks on.
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 06:07 |
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You can mend the wires You can feed the soul apart You reach It can happen to you It can happen to me It can happen to everyone eventually
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 06:17 |
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Ending slavery isn't 'a personal moral code'. Slavery is not a 'perceived injustice', like it's a matter of opinion. Not being enslaved is a basic human right. One of the police's many jobs is to prevent people from being enslaved. Should we invade Saudi Arabia or the UAE? No poo poo sherlock that society in the PT is unjust and needs to be changed. You're not accomplishing much with this posturing. You shouldn't go about it by installing fascist control over the senate. That and invasion is the only option for what you wanted the Jedi to do. This isn't about what the War on Terror was intended to accomplish. If tbe War on Terror happened for entirely just and noble reasons it would still be incredibly misguided, condescending, unjust, and ultimately cause the situation to worsen. Just like the real War on Terror did. You know that joke that starts with "every soldier thinks god is on THEIR side!"? Thats you in this scenario. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 06:29 on Apr 25, 2016 |
# ? Apr 25, 2016 06:25 |
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George Lucas posted:Having already been granted emergency powers in the face of the growing threat, Chancellor Palpatine used his ironclad grip on the Senate to seize even greater authority, all in the name of security. To address the urgent military needs of the Republic, he enlisted the Jedi Knights as generals to command the Clone Army. The Jedi valiantly accepted their assignment, though never having served as military commanders, they were unaccustomed to the wages of war. Their ranks, once sufficient to serve as the guardians of peace and justice, were spread perilously thin in the face of this unthinkable challenge. Their relationship with Palpatine grew strained. At the same time, they felt their own power waning even as their most promising new apprentice completed his training and stood poised to fulfill his destiny as the Chosen One who would bring balance to the Force. Neurolimal posted:Should we invade Saudi Arabia or the UAE? Just want to quote this paragraph Cnut posted again. There's a very important detail, the most important even, in this paragraph that gets to the heart of the Jedi's failing(emphasis mine) and even your own Neurolimal with regards to the true central conflict of these movies, slavery. The important lesson to take away from the Jedi and Republic is to not become a blind reactionary.
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 06:48 |
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Neurolimal posted:You shouldn't go about it by installing fascist control over the senate. That's what their council votes to do in the film.
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 06:53 |
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Lord Krangdar posted:That's what their council votes to do in the film. They vote to depose him, how they intend to do this nonviolently isn't shown, nor what they would do to the power vacuum. It could effectively have been an impeachment vote to start trials. Of course you can read it your way, and that's at least not insane, like what SMG is proposing.
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 06:59 |
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Neurolimal posted:Should we invade Saudi Arabia or the UAE? You are definitely confused. I did not say anything about invading countries and supporting fascism(?). Here's what I do assert: The droids and gungans, and other oppressed in the galaxy must unite in shared struggle against their mutual oppressors. If the Jedi actually stand for peace and justice, they must assist this proletarian uprising. The droids are our brothers. I support true universal democracy, aka the dictatorship of the proletariat. None are exempt from human rights. The Republic is the Empire, and must be destroyed for that reason. Vader's death expresses the truth that there is no excuse for suffering. God himself suffers in solidarity with the meek. I'm basically talking anticapitalism.
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 06:59 |
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I did not say anything about invading countries and supporting fascism(?). In this sequence republics' citizens begin the social action, which is literally what I said should (and eventually did) happen. In the face of a civil uprising over slavery then the Jedi should consider the justice of the situation and act in accordance with their values. This is far different from the Jedi instigating social change through force, which was your original position on what should be done.
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 07:02 |
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It's a constant fight A constant fight You're pushing the needle to the red Black and white Who knows who's right No substitute you're born you're dead Fly by night Created out of fantasy Our destinations call
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 07:06 |
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Neurolimal posted:They vote to depose him, how they intend to do this nonviolently isn't shown, nor what they would do to the power vacuum. It could effectively have been an impeachment vote to start trials. I think you're forgetting the details of the scenes in question. Here is the main one: quote:117 INT. CORUSCANT-JEDI WAR ROOM-EARLY EVENING Then a couple of scenes later Anakin meets up with Windu, who is on his way to confront Palpatine.
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 07:12 |
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Neurolimal posted:In this sequence republics' citizens begin the social action, which is literally what I said should (and eventually did) happen. In the face of a civil uprising over slavery then the Jedi should consider the justice of the situation and act in accordance with their values. The jedi should absolutely force slavery to end in the Republic. It's everyone's responsibility to help. Do you believe the jedi are incapable of truly being selfless? Do you believe that the jedi are incapable of being just (i.e. if they end slavery in the Republic, they must have an ulterior motive or something)? If so, what does that tell you about the jedi? Your immediate assumption is that, if they were to ever actually try to fight injustice, the jedis would accidentally become fascists and take over the galaxy. You are making a really strong case for the jedi being irredeemable garbage. I, however, believe they are redeemable. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 07:21 on Apr 25, 2016 |
# ? Apr 25, 2016 07:19 |
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Neurolimal posted:In this sequence republics' citizens begin the social action, which is literally what I said should (and eventually did) happen. In the face of a civil uprising over slavery then the Jedi should consider the justice of the situation and act in accordance with their values. Quoting this so SMG can't run away from his goal post shifting. Also, l o l If anyone thinks the emperor was actually helpless in that moment. That was his chance to get Anakin to think that and have him intervene, bringing him to a point of no return to evil.
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 07:21 |
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rear end Catchcum posted:Quoting this so SMG can't run away from his goal post shifting. awkward...
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 07:24 |
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The jedi should absolutely force slavery to end in the Republic. It's everyone's responsibility to help. This goes back to my idea of early Jedis acting like Sohei, righting wrongs across the Galaxy, until forced to become a more centralized order under the Republic's control.
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 07:26 |
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Lord Krangdar posted:I think you're forgetting the details of the scenes in question. Here is the main one: It's been a while since I've seen RotS, so assuming that this is in the movie and not just script I'l concede that. Like I said, its a better critique of the jedi than them not forcing progress.
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 07:51 |
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The jedi should absolutely force slavery to end in the Republic. It's everyone's responsibility to help. I'm making the case that good intentions alone do not make for good action. The scale required to force the galaxy into abolishing slavery would require totalitarian rule.
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 07:53 |
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how many days did tezzor last this time lol
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 08:04 |
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Neurolimal posted:I'm making the case that good intentions alone do not make for good action. The scale required to force the galaxy into abolishing slavery would require totalitarian rule. You're not thinking about this, calling for a return to the status quo(slavery) is a 'good' action born from 'good' intentions.
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 08:05 |
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brawleh posted:You're not thinking about this, calling for a return to the status quo(slavery) is a 'good' action born from 'good' intentions. It's not enforcing the status quo; like I said, if the people or even just the droids start an uprising, it should be fine for the jedi to support it. The military wing of the republic shouldn't be taking over the senate and enforcing their own laws. I'm surprised this is even controversial among leftists.
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 08:11 |
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Neurolimal posted:I'm making the case that good intentions alone do not make for good action. The scale required to force the galaxy into abolishing slavery would require totalitarian rule. Well yeah; I'm talking about the dictatorship of the proletariat. You have defined 'guarding peace and justice in the galaxy" as 'protecting the interests of Republic citizens'. But droids are not Republic citizens, and cannot gain citizenship because they do not even qualify for human rights. Who will be their guardian? I don't think you've really thought this through. Take your assertion that 'racism is over!' in TFA. So can droids vote now? Do they get paid for their work? Does capitalism even exist anymore? Why isn't the movie about droids taking control of the factories, as an assertion of their reproductive rights? Droids obtaining human rights would be a massive upheaval. The Millenium Falcon and Cloud City are just a few of the machines apparently capable of speech. Unfortunately, there's no actual basis for the idea that the droids are free now. And who said anything about "taking over the senate"? SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 08:15 on Apr 25, 2016 |
# ? Apr 25, 2016 08:11 |
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Well yeah; I'm talking about the dictatorship of the proletariat. I never said racism was over in TFA. If the droids require guardians, then those guardians should be the people, who are in turn protected by the Jedi. Until a point where droids are considered citizens and no longer need a middle-man.
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 08:14 |
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The funniest part about Tezzor is everyone initially cheering for him, then going silent. "Oh cool a guy who can outwrite SMG and Cnut! Their reign of terror is at an end." "Heh, you go Tezzor." "Okay you can calm down now." "Uhh..." "..."
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 08:25 |
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# ? May 30, 2024 14:16 |
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Neurolimal posted:I never said racism was over in TFA. I know basic arguments like "slaves should be free NOW" and "corporations do not represent people" are difficult for you, but you do realise you're defending slavery, right?
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# ? Apr 25, 2016 08:29 |