Neurolimal posted:

It's saying that the nature of the Jedi prevented them from ending slavery without compromising themselves and causing far greater long-term harm (assuming a universe where Anakin is never recruited) than allowing the people to govern themselves.

As it stands, allowing the people to tackle slavery meant it mostly ends in about [time between TPM and TFA, 80 years?], whereas enforcing their morality upon society before society is capable would likely result in a rebellion and counter-culture against their decrees.

It has less to do with risk and more to do with the absurdity in expecting the Police (however more noble Jedi are by comparison) to enforce racial equality for you.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Christ, think about what you're saying here. Why is it absurd for police to fight inequality? Why would you wait 80 years in the hopes that slavery would just go away on its own?

If 'the nature of the Jedi prevented them from ending slavery without compromising themselves', then the Jedi have failed miserably at doing their one job.

Neurolimal posted:

I mean consider what you're saying SMG: you're saying the republic's generals are wrong for not bringing democracy equality to the galaxy. Lucas Weeps.

Neurolimal posted:

I'm sure the PT would have been totally different if someone told Lucas' about the state of slavery and womens' rights in the middle east.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Tezzor.

Tezzor.

Tezzor, you wrote the post about Naboo's 'dark undercurrents'. Don't you remember? Here it is again:


-You said Naboo is a decadent, hedonistic society.

-You said that Naboo's elected Senator is 'creepy'.

-You said Padme is taking advantage of a child.

-You said the Naboo people like to be dominated.

-You criticized Padme's leadership.

All these ideas came from you. You watched the film, collected textual evidence, and generated an interpretation all by yourself.

The only dishonest thing you did was 'lol-randomly' calling the characters pedophiles instead of just, accurately, calling them rich.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Wait, hold up.

You can't actually think that the 'war on terror' was an emancipatory project launched by America's radical left. You don't actually think that, do you?

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Actually, those weren't the options.

Palpatine just absorbed Windu's hate, becoming more powerful than ever.

Windu's two main options were to let go of his attachment to the Order and run away, as Yoda did, or he could die violently in a futile effort to retain his power.

And those were not the only options because Windu could have done what Vader did: let go of his attachments and kill Palpatine.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

That's literally what happens. Windu had the option, at that moment, to admit that he was after power: more power for the Jedi Order. More power for the Republic. More power for himself. (The Sith and the Jedi are similar in almost every way, including their quest for greater power). Because the way to kill Palpatine is the give up your power.

Vader gave up all his power by allowing himself to be electrocuted. And once he made that choice, Palpatine just vanished.

Windu had that option too.

Tezzor posted:

Samuel Jackson: (TPM second commentary track, 1:34:30) "In the Jedi Council he's one of the wizened people. I think it's important that you have people that are able to analyse and look at things kind of dispassionately, in a way that he does, that uses reason...and he has this sense of right and wrong, you know, there's no cloudy space, it's very cut and dried for him."

Jackson (AotC second commentary track, 4:45:) "I think Mace is a well thought out character, who has has the trust of a lot of people throughout the universe. It's important to have characters that people can look at and see that they've made a decision to be right. Now we have a lot of anti-heroes, I've played a lot of them, but there's something to be said for the pure, unadulterated good guy."

Jackson (AotC second commentary track, 1:21:00) "Mace has seen a lot, and has to understand a LOT of different things about what is and is not going on around him, and the disturbances in the Force, and trying to decipher what they are, and what they mean to the greater good of everyone, and not just his specific group of people."

Tezzor posted:

Neurolimal posted:

I've never watched the commentary. Thats pretty cool and, I feel, supports my reading of the Jedi.

Also more respect for Tezzor, since despite his shitpost style he's gone through the effort to watch all the films and their commentary tracks before judging the PT wanting.

Tezzor posted:

Read the entire post that is linked in the quote, it comprehensively demolishes these idiots to the point that their only coherent response so far is to argue that the commentary tracks are a ruse to trick us.

Lord Krangdar posted:

Has anyone said that?

Tezzor posted:

Tezzor posted:

Yes, repeatedly, Ferrinus explicitly and I think SMG implictly although I cannot be 100% sure because the language he speaks is not technically English

Ferrinus posted:

All of those quotes confirm that Mace Windu has a strong sense of his own rightness, sees morality in cut-and-dried, black-and-white terms. It makes perfect sense that he would therefore decide to simply execute a helpless bad guy, having decided that was the best thing to do at the time. Unfortunately, because the actual situation was a fraught one, Windu's uncomplicated and decisive action, his conviction in his own rightness, led to his downfall.

lfield posted:

No his downfall was when the evil guy shot him out the window with magic lightning.

Neurolimal posted:

I'm saying that saying the Jedi should have just invaded and subjugated worlds to enforce equality is the exact opposite of what Lucas and the majority of people's readings ITT were going for, intending, or want.

I don't want the police taking over our government to enforce their personal moral code on us. And through the power of the Golden Rule I can apply this same line of thought to invading other countries over percieved injustices, and apply it abstractly to the world of Stars Wars.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Ending slavery isn't 'a personal moral code'. Slavery is not a 'perceived injustice', like it's a matter of opinion. Not being enslaved is a basic human right. One of the police's many jobs is to prevent people from being enslaved.

Since droids are people, it is the job of the Republic police to free the droids in the Republic. If the police instead enforce the institution of slavery, that is called injustice. If droids are not legally people, then the law is unjust and must be changed.

I'm surprised to be explaining this.

Now, I think you're confused because you believe the war on terror was actually about bringing justice to the world. It was not. The war on terror was not launched in defense of the poor. It was launched in defense of liberal capitalism, and to extend its influence.

I have never called for the Republic to invade Tatooine. The Republic is the Empire.

George Lucas posted:

Having already been granted emergency powers in the face of the growing threat, Chancellor Palpatine used his ironclad grip on the Senate to seize even greater authority, all in the name of security. To address the urgent military needs of the Republic, he enlisted the Jedi Knights as generals to command the Clone Army. The Jedi valiantly accepted their assignment, though never having served as military commanders, they were unaccustomed to the wages of war. Their ranks, once sufficient to serve as the guardians of peace and justice, were spread perilously thin in the face of this unthinkable challenge. Their relationship with Palpatine grew strained. At the same time, they felt their own power waning even as their most promising new apprentice completed his training and stood poised to fulfill his destiny as the Chosen One who would bring balance to the Force.

Neurolimal posted:

Should we invade Saudi Arabia or the UAE?

No poo poo sherlock that society in the PT is unjust and needs to be changed. You're not accomplishing much with this posturing. You shouldn't go about it by installing fascist control over the senate. That and invasion is the only option for what you wanted the Jedi to do.

This isn't about what the War on Terror was intended to accomplish. If tbe War on Terror happened for entirely just and noble reasons it would still be incredibly misguided, condescending, unjust, and ultimately cause the situation to worsen. Just like the real War on Terror did. You know that joke that starts with "every soldier thinks god is on THEIR side!"? Thats you in this scenario.

Neurolimal posted:

You shouldn't go about it by installing fascist control over the senate.

Lord Krangdar posted:

That's what their council votes to do in the film.

Neurolimal posted:

Should we invade Saudi Arabia or the UAE?

Bo poo poo sherlock that society in the PT is unjust and needs to be changed. You're not accomplishing much with this posturing. You shouldn't go about it by installing fascist control over the senate. That and invasion is the only option for what you wanted the Jedi to do.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

I did not say anything about invading countries and supporting fascism(?).

Here's what I do assert:

The droids and gungans, and other oppressed in the galaxy must unite in shared struggle against their mutual oppressors.
If the Jedi actually stand for peace and justice, they must assist this proletarian uprising.
The droids are our brothers.
I support true universal democracy, aka the dictatorship of the proletariat.
None are exempt from human rights.
The Republic is the Empire, and must be destroyed for that reason.
Vader's death expresses the fact that there is no excuse for suffering. God himself suffers in solidarity with the meek.

I'm basically talking anticapitalism.

Neurolimal posted:

They vote to depose him, how they intend to do this nonviolently isn't shown, nor what they would do to the power vacuum. It could effectively have been an impeachment vote to start trials.

quote:

117 INT. CORUSCANT-JEDI WAR ROOM-EARLY EVENING

KI-ADI-MUNDI, ANAKIN, YODA, MACE, CLONE COMMANDER CODY, and AAYLA SECURA talk via holograms.

CLONE COMMANDER CODY: Master Windu, may I interrupt? General Kenobi has made contact with General Grievous, and we
have begun our attack.

MACE WlNDU: Thank you, Commander. Anakin, deliver this report to the Chancellor. His reaction will give us a clue to his
intentions.

ANAKIN: Yes, Master.

ANAKIN leaves the room. COMMANDER CODY's hologram disappears.

MACE WINDU: I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi. The dark side of the Force surrounds the Chancellor.

Kl-ADI-MUNDI: If he does not give up his emergency powers after the destruction of Grievous, then he should be removed from
office.

MACE WiNDU: That could be a dangerous move ... the Jedi Council would have to take control of the Senate in order to secure a peaceful transition . . .

Kl-ADI-MUNDI: . . . and replace the Congress with Senators who are not filled with greed and corruption.

YODA: To a dark place this line of thought will carry us. Hmmmmm. . . . great care we must take.

Neurolimal posted:

In this sequence republics' citizens begin the social action, which is literally what I said should (and eventually did) happen. In the face of a civil uprising over slavery then the Jedi should consider the justice of the situation and act in accordance with their values.

This is far different from the Jedi instigating social change through force, which was your original position on what should be done.

Neurolimal posted:

In this sequence republics' citizens begin the social action, which is literally what I said should (and eventually did) happen. In the face of a civil uprising over slavery then the Jedi should consider the justice of the situation and act in accordance with their values.

This is far different from the Jedi instigating social change through force, which was your original position on what should be done.

rear end Catchcum posted:

Quoting this so SMG can't run away from his goal post shifting.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

The jedi should absolutely force slavery to end in the Republic. It's everyone's responsibility to help.

Do you believe the jedi are incapable of truly being selfless? Do you believe that the jedi are incapable of being just (i.e. if they end slavery in the Republic, they must have an ulterior motive or something)?

If so, what does that tell you about the jedi? Your immediate assumption is that, if they were to ever actually try to fight injustice, the jedis would accidentally become fascists and take over the galaxy.

You are making a really strong case for the jedi being irredeemable garbage.

I, however, believe they are redeemable.

Lord Krangdar posted:

I think you're forgetting the details of the scenes in question. Here is the main one:


Then a couple of scenes later Anakin meets up with Windu, who is on his way to confront Palpatine.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

The jedi should absolutely force slavery to end in the Republic. It's everyone's responsibility to help.

Do you believe the jedi are incapable of truly being selfless? Do you believe that the jedi are incapable of being just (i.e. if they end slavery in the Republic, they must have an ulterior motive or something)?

If so, what does that tell you about the jedi? Your immediate assumption is that, if they were to ever actually try to fight injustice, the jedis would accidentally become fascists and take over the galaxy.

You are making a really strong case for the jedi being irredeemable garbage.

I, however, believe they are redeemable.

Neurolimal posted:

I'm making the case that good intentions alone do not make for good action. The scale required to force the galaxy into abolishing slavery would require totalitarian rule.

brawleh posted:

You're not thinking about this, calling for a return to the status quo(slavery) is a 'good' action born from 'good' intentions.

Neurolimal posted:

I'm making the case that good intentions alone do not make for good action. The scale required to force the galaxy into abolishing slavery would require totalitarian rule.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Well yeah; I'm talking about the dictatorship of the proletariat.

You have defined 'guarding peace and justice in the galaxy" as 'protecting the interests of Republic citizens'. But droids are not Republic citizens, and cannot gain citizenship because they do not even qualify for human rights. Who will be their guardian?

I don't think you've really thought this through. Take your assertion that 'racism is over!' in TFA. So can droids vote now? Do they get paid for their work? Does capitalism even exist anymore? Why isn't the movie about droids taking control of the factories, as an assertion of their reproductive rights?

Droids obtaining human rights would be a massive upheaval. The Millenium Falcon and Cloud City are just a few of the machines apparently capable of speech.

Unfortunately, there's no actual basis for the idea that the droids are free now.

Neurolimal posted:

I never said racism was over in TFA.

If the droids require guardians, then those guardians should be the people, who are in turn protected by the Jedi. Until a point where droids are considered citizens and no longer need a middle-man.