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Nessus posted:You could have proposed that the government compensate the slave-holding classes for their lost "property" in some manner (which I believe did happen on a limited basis in the pro-Union border states) which I think was tried with some success in Brazil around that time frame. But you're still interfering with the sacred right of Property, and you're also probably going to have to have TAXES to pay for this. The US federal government had a small program to compensate slave owners, though it was only for Washington, DC.
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Apr 23, 2016 17:37
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Nessus posted:You could have proposed that the government compensate the slave-holding classes for their lost "property" in some manner (which I believe did happen on a limited basis in the pro-Union border states) which I think was tried with some success in Brazil around that time frame. But you're still interfering with the sacred right of Property, and you're also probably going to have to have TAXES to pay for this. As I recall this idea was being bandied about quite a bit at the time and various CSA leaders publicly and very vocally rejected it.
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Apr 23, 2016 18:08
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The only thing slave owners deserve in compensation for their slaves being freed is bullets.
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Apr 23, 2016 18:26
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Pope Guilty posted:The only thing slave owners deserve in compensation for their slaves being freed is bullets. *forms representative government and espouses libertarian principles* Ayyy not you, you don't have a soul! Hundreds of years later people will still defend this.
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Apr 23, 2016 18:36
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Nessus posted:You could have proposed that the government compensate the slave-holding classes for their lost "property" in some manner (which I believe did happen on a limited basis in the pro-Union border states) which I think was tried with some success in Brazil around that time frame. But you're still interfering with the sacred right of Property, and you're also probably going to have to have TAXES to pay for this. Somehow, I think these are the sorts of taxes that libertarians would be okay with.
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Apr 23, 2016 21:19
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Pope Guilty posted:The only thing slave owners deserve in compensation for their slaves being freed is bullets. Shootin's to good fer 'em. Use a sugarcane hatchet.
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Apr 23, 2016 22:33
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paragon1 posted:Shootin's to good fer 'em. Use a sugarcane hatchet. I know it sounds like a good idea but historically it ends with a high percentage of your GDP getting shipped to France for a century under threat of genocide.
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Apr 24, 2016 06:08
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Pope Guilty posted:I know it sounds like a good idea but historically it ends with a high percentage of your GDP getting shipped to France for a century under threat of genocide. Actually, no. That only happens if you stupidly agree to pay money to the former slave owners in exchange for political recognition, and then take out gigantic loving loans to pay for it all because your economy is still wrecked from decades of war.
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Apr 24, 2016 06:20
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If anybody is wondering what the gently caress people are talking about, noted Good Podcast Revolutions just finished its series on the Haitan Revolution. Check out the start here, then listen to all the other ones. I'm a particular fan of the fact that the only successful slave revolt in history resulted in a country that is now the poorest in its region. I'm sure that is a total and complete coincidence!
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Apr 25, 2016 14:46
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I'd say to listen to the previous "season" on the French Revolution first, since it ends up having more than a little bit of an impact on how the simultaneous revolution in its colony goes.
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Apr 25, 2016 14:55
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MikeCrotch posted:If anybody is wondering what the gently caress people are talking about, noted Good Podcast Revolutions just finished its series on the Haitan Revolution. Check out the start here, then listen to all the other ones. It was for over a century pretty much the policy of the white nations that Haiti must never succeed. No way in hell were we going to let a nation where the slaves had given the colonists what they deserved be seen to be prosperous and peaceful.
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Apr 25, 2016 15:34
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MikeCrotch posted:If anybody is wondering what the gently caress people are talking about, noted Good Podcast Revolutions just finished its series on the Haitan Revolution. Check out the start here, then listen to all the other ones. It's not a coincidence in as much as the Haitians eventually had to pay France for themselves in order to gain international recognition and this put them into ruinous debt, but nor is it really especially notable compared to the experiences of other slave societies forced to abolish slavery or other former European colonial possessions or other post-revolutionary societies.
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Apr 25, 2016 16:33
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MikeCrotch posted:If anybody is wondering what the gently caress people are talking about, noted Good Podcast Revolutions just finished its series on the Haitan Revolution. Check out the start here, then listen to all the other ones. Yeah, haha, stupid slaves right?
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Apr 25, 2016 18:39
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Pope Guilty posted:It was for over a century pretty much the policy of the white nations that Haiti must never succeed. No way in hell were we going to let a nation where the slaves had given the colonists what they deserved be seen to be prosperous and peaceful. This shouldn't really be in the past tense, see the USA to this day forcing Haiti to lower its minimum wage so our corporations can essentially use them as slaves once again.
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Apr 25, 2016 18:48
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I feel like Mike Crotch was making a "the world shits on Haiti because they succeeded" insinuation, and not a "dumb black slaves can't run an economy" situation. Also the story of Haiti's current malaise really is as much about the United States as it is about France, from the occupation in 1915 on through the grudging then open support of the Duvaliers as anti-communist bulwarks. Guess who was Baby Doc's biggest fan: The saint of freedom and free markets, good ol' Ronny. No country is going to do super well after everybody who can afford to leave leaves to avoid being tortured to death in a detention center. I meant it's because they used voodoo to make a pact with the devil: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ4dA6kZsEs Beelzebufo fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Apr 26, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 22:04
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YF19pilot posted:I love how people who froth at the mouth about the sanctity of property rights and how evil Lincoln was for invading the south, praise a woman who was engaging in theft and working for the Union. That and every meme I see stating her being affiliated with the Republican party. I forget, who was it the Nazis rounded up first?
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Apr 25, 2016 22:31
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:I forget, who was it the Nazis rounded up first? Trade unionists, totally different from socialists because they loved TRADE
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Apr 25, 2016 23:10
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Stinky_Pete posted:Trade unionists, totally different from socialists because they loved TRADE And they totally were not like horrible labor unions, which are anti-free market. The unionists in this case are, uhhh, they just really like mathematics
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Apr 26, 2016 00:01
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QuarkJets posted:And they totally were not like horrible labor unions, which are anti-free market. The unionists in this case are, uhhh, they just really like mathematics Like unionism, the modern trend toward intersectionism is predicated on an overzealous application of set theory to politics. (Nobody tell them about Russell's paradox, they'll be crushed)
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Apr 26, 2016 01:40
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Juffo-Wup posted:Like unionism, the modern trend toward intersectionism is predicated on an overzealous application of set theory to politics. (Nobody tell them about Russell's paradox, they'll be crushed) 
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Apr 26, 2016 06:50
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Dr. Stab posted:Somehow, I think these are the sorts of taxes that libertarians would be okay with. I mean, if you're saying "some" libertarian individuals or people who are sticking to the dictionary definition... sure. If you mean the actual semi organized movement, I imagine they wouldn't give a poo poo, or would call for private charity to do it, because taxes. Now I do agree with the sentiment that the slaves were never property even if they were treated as such, but I could see an argument that essentially buying out the South would've been morally preferable to a major war. The knock-on effects, however, would have been bad (the plantation owners would now have a shitload of money and would probably have instituted some form of tenement farming, technically "free" but with the same broad effects as the post-Reconstruction South did).
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Apr 26, 2016 11:26
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Sedge and Bee posted:I feel like Mike Crotch was making a "the world shits on Haiti because they succeeded" insinuation, and not a "dumb black slaves can't run an economy" situation. Yeah, it was this. I was being facetious about the whole 'What a coincidenk!' thing, since as many people have pointed out Haiti's troubles are as much to do with poor bargaining with France, hangovers from the bloody revolution, US interference and propped up anti-communist dictators than white nations intentionally loving over Haiti for rebelling. Still, it's pretty stark for all that. Also don't forget the time the island was ravaged by an earthquake and then suffered an enormous cholera epidemic because the UN Peacekeepers shat in a major water supply.
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Apr 26, 2016 11:43
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MikeCrotch posted:Yeah, it was this. I was being facetious about the whole 'What a coincidenk!' thing, since as many people have pointed out Haiti's troubles are as much to do with poor bargaining with France, hangovers from the bloody revolution, US interference and propped up anti-communist dictators than white nations intentionally loving over Haiti for rebelling. Still, it's pretty stark for all that. For what it's worth, I figured your post could have been going either way but I felt like it was worth clarifying anyway.
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Apr 26, 2016 11:57
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I'm not sure which is worse, the fact that I posted something that could be misconstrued as really very racist, or that enough people say poo poo like that in earnest that people automatically assume you are being racist.
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Apr 26, 2016 12:35
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I mean, this is the libertarian thread. I don't recognize your user name so I don't know where you stand already. It's a very real possibility here.
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Apr 26, 2016 12:45
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I guess we all have the potential to be the next JRod if we just believe in
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Apr 26, 2016 13:37
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I like searching mises.org for whatever topic we're derailing about. So have, uh, this.
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Apr 26, 2016 14:13
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Goon Danton posted:I like searching mises.org for whatever topic we're derailing about. So have, uh, this. mises.org posted:This understanding of rights also exonerates families accused of "kidnapping" consenting Haitian children. It is clear that the evasion of statist adoption laws constitutes an act of compassion, rather than one of coercion. De jure kidnappers, which is to say, adoptive parents of willing children who act without the consent of the violent state apparatus, are to be applauded for their bravery and empathy, and are not to be conflated with de facto kidnappers, who take children from their families without permission or violate orphans' rights to self-ownership. "Kidnapping is ok as long as you mean well and evade the evil state who is trying to impinge on your new child's right to self-ownership by checking you actually mean well" 
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Apr 26, 2016 15:38
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Holy poo poo. Do they know a lot of these kids end up as de facto slaves working in the US or even just working in Haiti itself (Google restavek). Like with no control, you don't know who is taking these kids in, or what their intentions are. This sort of reasoning is why libertarians go from commit cooky utopians to straight up monsters.
Beelzebufo fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Apr 26, 2016 |
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Apr 26, 2016 16:14
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Sedge and Bee posted:Holy poo poo. Do they know a lot of these kids end up as de facto slaves working in the US or even just working in Haiti itself (Google restavek). Like with no control, you don't know who is taking these kids in, or what their intentions are. Sounds like a feature, not a bug.
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Apr 26, 2016 16:36
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Sedge and Bee posted:Holy poo poo. Do they know a lot of these kids end up as de facto slaves working in the US or even just working in Haiti itself (Google restavek). Like with no control, you don't know who is taking these kids in, or what their intentions are. This sort of reasoning is why libertarians go from commit cooky utopians to straight up monsters.  I think you'll find that's not slavery, it's actually indentured servitude by the strict definition, furthermore
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Apr 26, 2016 16:53
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Sedge and Bee posted:Holy poo poo. Do they know a lot of these kids end up as de facto slaves working in the US or even just working in Haiti itself (Google restavek). Like with no control, you don't know who is taking these kids in, or what their intentions are. This sort of reasoning is why libertarians go from commit cooky utopians to straight up monsters. They know. Every libertarian thinker you care to name has come out in support of slavery, as long as it's "voluntary." Even the relatively reasonable minarchists like Nozick. Who are you to stop people from engaging in voluntary commercial transactions like "lifetime unpaid labor contracts?" The State dictating what kinds of contacts people can sign "for their own good" is the real slavery here.
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Apr 26, 2016 17:05
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MikeCrotch posted:"Kidnapping is ok as long as you mean well and evade the evil state who is trying to impinge on your new child's right to self-ownership by checking you actually mean well" Hey, the kid voluntarily got in the van, and I voluntarily gave him his candy, he never specified which orifice. Plus, I saved him from the STATIST school he was on his way to where they were FORCING him to be indoctrinated.
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Apr 26, 2016 18:55
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Goon Danton posted:I like searching mises.org for whatever topic we're derailing about. So have, uh, this. What? ... WHAT!? 
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Apr 26, 2016 19:03
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Oh, my apologies, I forgot to quote an important passage from that article!quote:The following is the first of a three-part series about the orphan crisis in Haiti. gently caress you all, here are parts two and three!
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Apr 26, 2016 19:47
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Goon Danton posted:Oh, my apologies, I forgot to quote an important passage from that article! 
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Apr 26, 2016 20:04
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Goon Danton posted:
Mises posted:In the libertarian market, a free trade in consenting orphans must be allowed to occur. I'll send you to the Goon guillotine for this, Goon Danton! 
paragon1 fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Apr 26, 2016 |
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Apr 26, 2016 22:42
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Mises posted:Finally, adoption firms also have the incentive to pay defense firms to seek out and prosecute those tricksters who portray themselves as agents of the firm to kidnap and abuse Haitian children. This is because a brand name or uniform is meant to convey useful, positive information, and orphanages and parents will quickly become suspicious of doing business with any firm whose logo comes to be associated with trickery.
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Apr 26, 2016 23:03
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Governments: institutions which notoriously have no regard whatsoever for establishing and maintaining legitimacy.
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Apr 26, 2016 23:09
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Hence, no laws against e.g. impersonating a police officer
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Apr 26, 2016 23:12
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