|
He died.
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 07:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 16:19 |
|
the trump tutelage posted:It's funny that Oberyn was to GRRM what Oberyn was to the show. Neither understood what made Oberyn so great, so we got Darkstar and the Sand Snakes respectively. It's funny that you mention Darkstar, because he is the character that the Ellaria and the Sand Snakes are closest to in terms of actions. It's almost as if D&D went through the Dorne chapters, looked for the one character that pretty much everyone in the book and outside of the book dislikes and said "let's model our Dorne on him." Given that we will most likely see Arthur Dayne this season wouldn't it make sense that we also see the younger Dayne? And wouldn't it make even more sense for him to be the lover of one of the Sand Snakes or maybe multiple Sand Snakes? He than could engage in witty banter with Brone. GaussianCopula fucked around with this message at 07:56 on Apr 26, 2016 |
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 07:51
|
|
|
If they introduced Darkstar this episode to kill either Trystane or Doran would the episode have been better or worse?
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 07:54
|
|
|
They should seriously ditch Dorne at this point. That plot line has gone so far down the gutter I don't even care anymore.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 07:57
|
|
bobjr posted:If they introduced Darkstar this episode to kill either Trystane or Doran would the episode have been better or worse? If he killed Trystane it would be better because it would not have required Littlefinger's magical plot teleportation device.
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 07:58
|
|
|
The whole Dorne story is stupid and incompetently handled, the latter is much worse. They could have had the entire story line in without having Bronn and Jaime go to Dorne. There's no reason why they couldn't have just opened with Doran giving Ellaria a warning because of the necklace she sent and gone from there. Doran takes the most placid sand snake as a hostage to keep Ellaria in line. Said hostage decides to Kill Myrcella and Tristane anyway, or kills 'em both and prince doran with poison at dinner or something. It's still a dumb story but at least Jaime and Bronn (as the Ilyn payne stand in) would've been free to go to the riverlands when they should have -which it appears is going to be condensed into this season, I'm assuming after he confronts the faith and more importantly we don't get those woeful fight scenes and actors included and it ends in the same place we're at now. The power in dorne dead and myrcella dead. I realise the writers plan was to have Jaime out of a position to help Cersei but that could've been achieved by having him go to the Riverlands anyway. God only knows how they're going to shoehorn his leaving the riverlands siege with Brienne under the orders of Lady Stoneheart considering the latter doesn't exist and it doesn't make any sense for Sansa to order Brienne to bring Jaime to her to be executed. It looks like a whole lot of the Frey's hanging etc is going to be done in a different way, but gently caress if I know. Probably in the most retarded way possible. Sansa will hear of Jon's death and become the new stoneheart in the riverland areas and she'll order Brienne to bring her Jaime and she'll do it for no discernible reason.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 08:28
|
|
|
BlindSite posted:I realise the writers plan was to have Jaime out of a position to help Cersei but that could've been achieved by having him go to the Riverlands anyway. God only knows how they're going to shoehorn his leaving the riverlands siege with Brienne under the orders of Lady Stoneheart considering the latter doesn't exist and it doesn't make any sense for Sansa to order Brienne to bring Jaime to her to be executed. It looks like a whole lot of the Frey's hanging etc is going to be done in a different way, but gently caress if I know. Probably in the most retarded way possible. Sansa will hear of Jon's death and become the new stoneheart in the riverland areas and she'll order Brienne to bring her Jaime and she'll do it for no discernible reason.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 08:30
|
|
|
GaussianCopula posted:It's funny that you mention Darkstar, because he is the character that the Ellaria and the Sand Snakes are closest to in terms of actions. It's almost as if D&D went through the Dorne chapters, looked for the one character that pretty much everyone in the book and outside of the book dislikes and said "let's model our Dorne on him." "Brone"
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 08:54
|
|
|
LemonDrizzle posted:Sansa has every possibly conceivable reason for taking an opportunistic swipe at Jaime, or any other Lannister, if she thinks he's vulnerable. Jaime is the reason she's not dog food right now though. Without his support, Brienne wouldn't have been able to find her. Brienne will probably try to talk her out of it but she does have good reason to hate him.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 08:57
|
|
|
CasualTR posted:They should seriously ditch Dorne at this point. That plot line has gone so far down the gutter I don't even care anymore. I think that's what they're doing. No way was this planned last season. I assume the sand snakes and Ellaria will be killed by a (new?) character before the season's over. Randyll, Euron, Jaime, Bronn, Cersei... I just know it'll be bad. Balon Greyjoy (Patrick Malahide) entertains other proposals - which sand snake should he marry?
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 10:23
|
|
|
Ague Proof posted:I think that's what they're doing. No way was this planned last season. FrankenMountain face turn. Youtube reaction videos of wild celebrations.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 10:30
|
|
|
I actually enjoyed this episode with the exception of Dorne not making much sense. Sometimes it feels like they just kill of characters for the sake of a shock factor > to remind the audience that anyone can die. The problem is they are fast running out of interesting characters since they keep killing potential badass people off. My complaints is that once again a supposed Badass warrior in Aero was killed off like a chump. I was pissed when Selmy died in this fashion, and more so now since they have done it twice. Arya's storyline could well suck rear end this season if all we see is her being trained. I'd rather her spend the entire season doing off-screen training like Bran did, than see her get beat up everyday until she just turns into a good fighter. I hope the White Walkers build a navy and invade from the south first so we can kill off Dorne.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 10:38
|
|
|
Turns out one of Balon Greyjoy's distant cousins, also named Balon Greyjoy, died at some point during season 3.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 10:45
|
|
|
Manic X posted:Sometimes it feels like they just kill of characters for the sake of a shock factor > to remind the audience that anyone can die. The problem is they are fast running out of interesting characters since they keep killing potential badass people off. At least 1 main character is gonna die this season and it's gonna suck.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 10:48
|
|
|
the trump tutelage posted:I'm very confused by the Dorne plot at the moment. Not only did they double down on the worst elements of Dorne from last season, knowing that this is the penultimate season in a series building towards a climactic Good vs Evil showdown in the North neuters any 'Dornish Invasion' plot in the South. I don't know where they're going with Dorne but I'm certain it'll be tedious. In WOW, Aegon is invading the Stormlands and wants Dorne to ally with him. They seem to be half-adapting that storyline but with the venomous vixens in charge instead.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 10:52
|
|
|
Didn't we learn that "a character died in the show that GRRM had big plans for"? I assumed after this episode that it was Doran. I watched with a load of people who haven't read the books and none of them even knew who Doran was since they'd handled it so utterly terribly. The most unreal bit to me was Dany giving her titles to the Khal, him saying "lol shut up" then her saying "My husband was Khal Drogo" and then they're all "Oh sorry, whoa!". It just felt so silly.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 11:35
|
|
|
If the info about Mel being 400+ years old is true, that would date her to around the time of the Doom, which would be a neat connection. If she were Valyrian that could also explain her strong connection with Jon. At this point, the series has been around so long that I'm pretty much done with the political intrigue stuff and would really just like to get to the bottom of the deeper mysteries of the setting. So while the show is mostly garbage (it's so incredibly cheesy and cliched, which, even you don't like the books, is pretty much the opposite of what they're all about), I actually appreciate the little bits of insight they're throwing out every so often, and think the Mel reveal was the best part of the ep. This is also why I think Bran's story is now one of the best parts of the series, whereas in the first few books he was pretty dull, and not much better in the show: it seems like he's becoming our gateway to explore what's actually going on with the Others, the weird seasons, what really happened in the past with Azor Ahai and so on. I wish Martin had got there first, because I'd have much rather read all this first since I started with the books. But at this point I just wanna know. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 11:58
|
|
|
What I think they are aiming for (with mixed results) is a recurring theme: Ellaria/The Sand Snakes think they can do better than the Martells, murder them, and take over, with (presumably) catastrophic consequences; Based on the trailer / spoilers, Ramsay thinks he can do better than Roose, likely murders him, takes over, with (presumably) catastrophic consequences; Last season, Thorne thinks he can do better than Jon Snow, etc. catastrophic consequences. Hubris biting people in the rear end is a recurring theme in Asoiaf after all.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 13:19
|
|
|
The more I think about it, the more the scene where the Sandsnakes randomly kill Trystane really, really pisses me off. I mean, I'm not even going to get into the fact that they randomly appeared on the boat while it neared King's Landing after previously being shown on the docks. I can ignore that. But the real problem is, thematically or from a character development standpoint, it served no purpose, and there were SO many ways where it could have. In that scene, the two Sand Snakes violently murder their cousin that they A) they have known and grown up with their whole lives and B) is a pretty gentle soul who has done absolutely nothing wrong to them. On one hand, you still have them commit the same act and make it a character-developing moment. They could still murder Trystane because they think its best for Dorne longterm, but have them show SOME degree of remorse about it afterwards considering the factors I've stated earlier instead of exchanging dumb quippy qups. Or, alternatively, they could still murder him because they both feel its necessary, but have one of them be sad about murdering their completely innocent cousin while the second relishes in the bloodshed. That could help develop their characters and distinguish between them, since they're pretty interchangeable at the moment. But don't make it a moment where both don't care and they bicker and exchange quippy-quips. Alternatively, if your goal was to show that BOTH of them are cold hearted killers who don't give a poo poo about family ties, that could work too, but have Trystane greet both of them when they arrive in his chambers and refuse to fight them because of the family stuff I mentioned earlier. Acknowledge the fact that they grew up together and that Trystane has love for both of them, and then have them murder him in cold blood anyway (without exchanging stupid quips). That would demonstrate to the audience that both of these characters are heartless murderers who are to be taken seriously in a somewhat effective way. But in order for that to work, you have to do something to acknowledge that this is someone who has familial love for them even if its not reciprocated, and that they're willing to betray that in one instant. That could potentially be a really effective tool if you wanted to demonstrate that these characters are ruthless, heartless killers who will stop at nothing to get ahead. But instead....it's just a series of random scenes.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 13:39
|
|
|
radlum posted:I thought it was pretty clear the dogs vanished because they can't show Brienne and Pod killing dogs and the writers hoped we wouldn't notice/care. why not? they've showed someone behead a horse. aside from killing them they could have dhowed them running away or something. I refuse to believe that having them vanish was the best course. who cares, the whole scene was dumb. My biggest annoyance was in a show where time is tight, they had a scene in which it takes them a minute to cross s river only to be found 5 seconds later. what the hell was the point? also, now they are soaked and will probably catch hypothermia...except...nope...theyre dry.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 14:09
|
|
|
What's this poo poo with not depicting animal deaths while not giving two shits about killing babies and humans in general? To me this sounds more like they ditched the dogs due to logistic difficulties and budget, the dogs weren't cooperative they gave it a take or two and said gently caress it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 14:11
|
|
|
on the topic of Dorne, can someone please explain feudalism to me? apparantly, the other Lords of the kingdom who possess land, armies, money, farms, etc. are likely to just accept some whore and her bastard daughters, who just murdered a child princess, her lover's brother (to avenge him?) and his son, as their new rulers? I guess I would accept them too if they had the powers of teleportation.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 14:14
|
|
|
the sand snakes explicitly kill oberyn and trystane because they consider them traitors to dorne and don't want their country ruled by "weak men" anymore. it's explicitly stated. and i am p happy that the writers murdered half the dorne cast because it means they recognize what went wrong last season. thankfully, we'll get less pointless tertiary characters whose brilliance we are supposed to take at face value. here's hoping the sand snakes establish a matriarchy and spend the rest of the season rampaging across westeros
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 14:15
|
|
|
TommyGun85 posted:on the topic of Dorne, can someone please explain feudalism to me? What other lords?
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 14:20
|
|
|
Ague Proof posted:What other lords? oh ya, I forgot on the show that Dorne is only one city.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 14:22
|
|
|
TommyGun85 posted:on the topic of Dorne, can someone please explain feudalism to me? The Dornish are way more chill about bastards, and if the rest of them feel similarly about Doran they'll be chill about the murder too.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 14:27
|
|
|
Strom Cuzewon posted:The Dornish are way more chill about bastards, and if the rest of them feel similarly about Doran they'll be chill about the murder too. Yeah, the point of having the guards do nothing was show that the people of Dorne (and likely the lords) actually want war, so they're ok with what happened.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 14:31
|
|
|
TommyGun85 posted:on the topic of Dorne, can someone please explain feudalism to me? Feudalism is a contract. I agree to submit to your authority and you, in return, agree to protect me. In the case of Dorne, Doran was pursuing an extremely unpopular policy in his relationship with the Iron Throne. The Dorne's nobles, citing the deaths of Elia and Oberyn, believed that the Lannister-controlled Throne had violated the feudal contract. The nobles of the Dorne, represented by the Sand Snakes, wanted Doran to break off from the Iron Throne and take vengeance against the Lannisters for their actions. When the opposite occurred, with Doran threatening to tie the Lannisters and Martells together via marriage, the nobility believed that Doran had violated their trust. Doran's lackadaisy attitude towards the death of several Dornish citizens showed that he could not be trusted to protect them. His and Trystane's death were a coup intended to change Dorne's relationship with the Iron Throne. Whether the Sand Snakes are successful depends on whether their actions are seen as legitimate. All the laws of feudalism are more "rules of thumb" and can be bent at will. If Dorne's nobility consider Doran's policy as disastrous as the Sand Snakes suggest, then there's no reason for them to revolt. The reaction of Doran's guards already suggest that that is the case and there will be very few people mourning his death. Plus, Dorne seems pretty chill about women and bastards. I doubt either of those factors would be deal-breakers. QuoProQuid fucked around with this message at 14:36 on Apr 26, 2016 |
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 14:31
|
|
|
Just to note, outside of the show, Doran's actions are viewed pretty dimly by many in Dorne because they have no idea what he is planning. We don't hear that much from other houses, but we do know that the head of House Uller (incidentally, Ellaria's father) is pretty pissed about the whole thing and openly disdains toasting Tommen as king. So the entire thing is slightly less stupid if you consider that in addition to being Oberyn's paramour she is also the daughter of one of the other powerful houses in Dorne that potentially approves of the move. Of course, none of this is made clear in the show at all, but in the show I think Dorne is like 15 people and three locations so it hardly matters. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 14:39
|
|
|
Ashcans posted:Just to note, outside of the show, Doran's actions are viewed pretty dimly by many in Dorne because they have no idea what he is planning. We don't hear that much from other houses, but we do know that the head of House Uller (incidentally, Ellaria's father) is pretty pissed about the whole thing and openly disdains toasting Tommen as king. So the entire thing is slightly less stupid if you consider that in addition to being Oberyn's paramour she is also the daughter of one of the other powerful houses in Dorne that potentially approves of the move. It's too bad the show didn't do much to establish his own quiet hatred of the crown, as that was the most interesting thing about his character in the books, even if all his plans essentially fail.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 14:41
|
|
|
ya, my question was less about the lords allowing the Martells to be killed and more about whether Lords with lands and titles would accept a paramour and her bastard daughters as their new rulers.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 14:42
|
|
|
They should've Chuck Cunningham-ed Dorne. Move High Garden to the coast and make it a point to bring up, "the Bay of High Garden," while pointing to a map with no Dorne on it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 14:46
|
|
|
TommyGun85 posted:ya, my question was less about the lords allowing the Martells to be killed and more about whether Lords with lands and titles would accept a paramour and her bastard daughters as their new rulers.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 14:59
|
|
|
The answer to that is basically 'maybe'. Generally feudalism puts a lot of stock into bloodlines, and while the crown doesn't always pass to the most direct relation if someone else has a bigger army, its' always preferable for whoever to take it to have some claim on legitimacy, otherwise you're just inviting a peasant revolt. It's important to note that Oberyn acknowledged and favored all the Sand Snakes, so they would be people known in court, possibly with their own alliances and entourages. Doran is prepared to send Nymeria to King's Landing to represent Dorne on the Council, for instance, and they have regular/expected access to Doran. So it's not like trying to stick Gendry on the throne or something, it's much closer to something like Jon inheriting Winterfell and probably a step above Ramsay being Roose's heir (because Ramsay was unacknowledged and living as a peasant for much of his life). The problem is that if someone isn't happy with Ellaria and the Sand Snakes, they need to have another claimant. That means either finding another blood relation of Martell, or another route to claiming the right to rule Dorne. For example, the Bolton's went the second way by getting the Iron Throne to proclaim them Wardens of the North - although that was the Starks position, the claim is that the rebellion voided their hold and the Boltons now get to rule the North under the authority of the throne. But that doesn't work well for a Dornish house, because Dorne all hate the throne and the problem with Doran was his lack of resistance to them. So if House Dayne doesn't like the Sand Snakes, they either have to put someone else forward as a better claimant, or decide to step into open rebellion. House Martell (in the show) is pretty hosed, so there aren't a lot of claimants going around. In this situation, it's believable that lords might decide to accept the situation rather than push the country into greater crisis - Oberyn was very popular, and the Sand Snakes are also well-regarded, so there is no given that they can refuse them without a fight. But you would expect that they would leverage the position as much as possible, either with marriages or with court positions to better themselves along the way. The actual problem of succession is more likely to be among the Sand Snakes. Ellaria has no position to inherit - even if she was married to Oberyn, she wouldn't be a blood relation and there is no way the crown passes to her - just like Cersei doesn't get to be ruler when Robert dies. She could hang around in a dowager role, but someone else has to be taking the crown. The issue is that the oldest of Oberyn's children is Obara, who was born to a common mother, and while Dorne is generally cooler with bastards and women, they might not like a common-born bastard taking the throne - they might favor Nymeria (who was born to a noblewoman) or Tyene (who is Ellaria's oldest daughter, and therefore descended from Dornish noble houses on both sides). But the Sand Snakes all tend to follow Obara, so its not that likely someone else could get a wedge between them.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 15:15
|
|
|
Jon Snow gets resurrected. Sand Snakes appear and kill him. Instead of the Clegane Bowl, we get the Sand Snakes vs Robert Strong. I don't know how this can be positive for anyone, this bizarre pseudofeminism in the media by giving women horrible stories and lines to make them badass somehow. Sand Snakes, Ghostbusters, Hillary Clinton. It's all awful, like someone thought the Charlie's Angels movie was good.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 15:24
|
|
|
FogHelmut posted:Jon Snow gets resurrected. Sand Snakes appear and kill him. having Bad Pussy Snake show her tits while trying to kill someone and then being called a slut directly afterward by another woman is feminism at its finest. Having Sansa raped by her abusive husband to somehow characterize her as a strong woman or some poo poo is a distant second on the feminism scale. 3rd I would place Brienne because, why not? She's a woman who does stuff.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 15:37
|
|
|
canepazzo posted:What I think they are aiming for (with mixed results) is a recurring theme: So basically everyone is the new old Cersei.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 15:39
|
|
|
Did we get more Snakes in this episode or is the show just distracting and weird about it?
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 15:40
|
|
|
We only ever saw three to begin with - spear, whip and knife. Spear ad whip were one the ship, knife stayed in Dorne and knifed Areo in the back.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 15:44
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 16:19 |
|
|
It's actually kinda remarkable that the biggest TV show has no 20-40yr old male protagonist for at least a few episodes. Or am I forgetting someone? I probably am.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2016 15:51
|
|
