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Darkest Auer posted:And yet your solution is to do nothing because ~*~international treaties~*~. No my solution just is not DEPORT EVERYONE and like you know, the real world, I'm looking for other solutions which uhh is right there in the post. OhYeah posted:Okay, let's try this another way. The Nordic countries don't owe anything to the people fleeing from poverty (and in some cases war). The obligation of the Nordic ountries is to take care of their citizens and ensure their well-being. Mass-immigration from third world countries has almost universally made these countries worse (crime rates, social segregation, excess welfare spending etc) which means the governments of the Nordic countries have failed their people. Umm I don't care about mass immigration and its benefits or lack of benefits? No poo poo getting bunch of people from third world countries isn't a cash cow. I think we should do a fraction of the sacrifice other poorer countries (even in EU) are doing and not toss refugees to the wind because of shitheads who exploit the system. Simple as that. You don't agree with that you know, too bad? I guess I just have to cry myself to sleep with the fact that Finland does? Like if your concept of nationalism and responsibility extends to "Yay my country gently caress everyone else" that's your right but don't bitch about other people setting other standards. "He thinks Finland should follow the deals it signs and the morals it has been preaching to the world for decades! What an rear end in a top hat!" DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 10:39 on Apr 26, 2016 |
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Apr 26, 2016 08:37
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Apr 26, 2016 08:57
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OhYeah, why is it that we shouldn't receive those people who seek help? If you decide to help someone, it will be at the expense of something - at least your time. It will probably cost you comfort and effort too. Probably money, too, and maybe you have to sacrifice even much more or much more serious stuff. If you only help those who you can profit off somehow, there's another word for that. If you don't help people, you're probably either selfish or afraid and should figure out which. I don't mean you need to be Ebenezer Scrooge or think the sky is falling but there is something preventing you from helping or even wanting to help. Like, I know I'm quite well off and I could, and should, donate more to various causes but unfortunately there's the combination of that new shiny SmartTV on sale and  .I visit Helsinki like twice a decade or something but I did go to Itäkeskus last weekend. I think I heard less Finnish that other languages combined and saw less Finnish-looking people than African/Russian/Arabic/Asian-looking people combined. It seriously was surprisingly uncomfortable since my memory of the place was a bit different. I could even call it intimidating. For me, personally, it's not a factor but I could easily see it adding to the equation of why we should just abandon the refugees. If you or your relatives have personal experiences worse than that, yeah, I'll buy that they contribute. But why stop helping altogether and abandon the people who flee whatever each of them are fleeing?
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Apr 26, 2016 09:59
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I’m going to go out on a limb here but perhaps the argument is that while you probably won't refuse help from a guy who crawls to you in the street saying "gahhh, Valiantman, bro, help me!", much of the masses that cross the EU border are not in any more need of help than most other people in developing countries. They are economic migrants. A testament to this is the fact most comers are poorly employed young men - exactly the class of people who have always traveled to dig gold elsewhere when their own lands become over populated and there is a dearth of wealth to spread. Also that they destroy or give away their papers so their real identity cannot be determined, and most the social media sites, facebook groups and so on advicing the migrants center on how to make up a story about your plight that the European official will swallow, ie. how to bullshit. Sure, they are poor (comparably, though the comers are far more affluent than most third world population), their countries have worse systems than a Nordic social democracy and thus forth, but if they seek to better their lives it should not be done either on the European taxpayers expense, or the supposition they need asylum in Europe, thinks the ohyeah -man. The situation why people don't have fun in Africa or Middle-East can't be solved by moving the people to another continent. Not any more than making a grand scheme of moving the poor children who live in the waste dumps or streets of Rio or Manila or Islamabad would fix problems in said countries. (IMO the kids living in those streets deserve asylum in Europe 10 times more than a 22 year old man who flees his country during conflict and leaves his family behind, and heads to the country with the best welfare benefits.) The confusion about what people mean and what their motives are when discussing the migrant waves probably stems from the conflict between two world views: the other view is that if a person in country X is in trouble, in need of work, whatever, he should move to another place in said country. Or perhaps the neighbouring country. The other view is that the person should move to Europe instead, because of great justice, even though he doesn't have anything to do here. Then Europeans will have to pay his upkeep untilt the end of time, just because. edit: also regarding helping the needy, this spring only 1/6 of the migrants coming over the Mediterranean have been from "traditional" asylum seeker countries any more, these days they are more often, say, Nigerians. "But Nigeria has Boko Haram!" someone told me, "surely a Nigerian needs asylum!" Nigeria is huge beyond imagination and 173 million people live there while Boko Haram has about 10 000 fighters. Perhaps the practical solution is not asylum seeking in EU... Ligur fucked around with this message at 11:54 on Apr 26, 2016 |
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Apr 26, 2016 11:39
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Except that nobody (I mean except nebulous radical green-leftists who I really would like to see any documentation about them saying this) is against throwing out people who don't have genuine cause for asylum so all those paragraphs were for nothing. You're arguing against a viewpoint not presented in this thread. The conflict is between people who think refugees should be punished, deported or prevented from seeking asylum because of completely unrelated people they don't even know or have any power over abuse the system...and people who don't think that. That is it. It's your right to believe the former but don't try to paint the issue as something it is not. Ligur posted:edit: also regarding helping the needy, this spring only 1/6 of the migrants coming over the Mediterranean have been from "traditional" asylum seeker countries any more, these days they are more often, say, Nigerians. "But Nigeria has Boko Haram!" someone told me, "surely a Nigerian needs asylum!" Nigeria is huge beyond imagination and 173 million people live there while Boko Haram has about 10 000 fighters. Perhaps the practical solution is not asylum seeking in EU... http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.php Maybe not lie about things, bro. Helps your point. Or were you referring to just Italy again? DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 12:19 on Apr 26, 2016 |
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Apr 26, 2016 11:58
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Good link. I should have been more specific for nippelinörttis http://www.hs.fi/ulkomaat/a1460600605160 Even if we drain Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan dry, there is no end to Africans who work at a dollar a day who will try their luck. Is the point. Of course the current system won't last as it's unsustainable, of we get another 2015 and nothing is done Europeans will simply vote for conservative parties that will put and end and won't give a poo poo about EU trying to boss everyone around. The question is how much damage and at what expense will be inflicted before that happens. But it will.
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Apr 26, 2016 12:31
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darkcrawler's style of debating: accuse the opposition of lies, anecdotes, far-fetched generalizations and emotive arguments (therefore all the arguments are false) while doing the same thing yourself 
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Apr 26, 2016 13:42
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Ligur posted:Good link. I should have been more specific for nippelinörttis http://www.hs.fi/ulkomaat/a1460600605160 It's not nippelinörttiys if you actually make a false statement. And things are being done about it (like your link shows!) but they are not just things that you agree with (blanket ban on everyone). Also the link in your link shows that in past week there has been 86% decrease in Italian arrivals and 41% increase in Greek arrivals because guess what you can't really judge trends based on a week or two. I guess this is also nippelinörttiys? Nauta posted:darkcrawler's style of debating: accuse the opposition of lies, anecdotes, far-fetched generalizations and emotive arguments while doing the same thing yourself Nauta's style of debating: + bizarre race accusations DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 13:52 on Apr 26, 2016 |
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Apr 26, 2016 13:49
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quote:Timo Harakka (sd) ja Paavo Arhinmäki (vas) vinoilivat, että hallituksen kahdella ministerillä on omakohtaistakin kokemusta veroparatiiseista. http://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/2016042621476689_uu.shtml Koirat haukkuu, karavaani kulkee! #suominousuunSipilä
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Apr 26, 2016 14:23
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Valiantman posted:OhYeah, why is it that we shouldn't receive those people who seek help? Because relatively speaking there are like 6 billion people who are "seeking help" from Finland*, and encouraging human traffickers and other illegal businesses is not a way to help the actual people who need help. * i.e. poorer than your average European
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Apr 26, 2016 14:39
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Speaking of tax havens, Sipilä's government has cut budgets for inquiries into tax fraud and white collar crime. But this is nothing new.
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Apr 26, 2016 14:43
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Rappaport posted:http://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/2016042621476689_uu.shtml at the bolded part
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Apr 26, 2016 14:47
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Darkest Auer posted:Because relatively speaking there are like 6 billion people who are "seeking help" from Finland*, and encouraging human traffickers and other illegal businesses is not a way to help the actual people who need help. Don't act dumb. Seeking help means that they travel all the way here and seek asylym. Not even checking who of them needs help is not a way of helping people.
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Apr 26, 2016 15:11
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the fact that they traveled all the way here to seek asylum implies that they are not, in fact, immediate danger
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Apr 26, 2016 15:15
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Rexroom posted:Speaking of tax havens, Sipilä's government has cut budgets for inquiries into tax fraud and white collar crime. But this is nothing new. Wasn't that one of the first things on his agenda? I remember it was on the news a long time ago already.
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Apr 26, 2016 15:29
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it was
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Apr 26, 2016 15:36
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Oh I guess that's why you actually said it's nothing new. Maybe I should read the entire post before smashing reply.
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Apr 26, 2016 15:40
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Nauta posted:the fact that they traveled all the way here to seek asylum implies that they are not, in fact, immediate danger well, not any longer, now that they've arrived here
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Apr 26, 2016 16:08
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except for the relatively minor danger caused by a handful of petrol bomb throwing ligurs of course
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Apr 26, 2016 16:08
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The refugees must first create dangerous conditions in each country they arrive in before they are allowed to move onto a new one. This works out great for us since we are so far north. 
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Apr 26, 2016 17:34
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doverhog posted:The refugees must first create dangerous conditions in each country they arrive in before they are allowed to move onto a new one. This works out great for us since we are so far north. We do have that one troublesome neighbor which isn't exactly known for it's lack of creating refugees though http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/refugees-from-chechnya-seek-new-life-in-germany-a-918720.html I guess everyone would be ok if the countries not bordering Russia would just send them all here? DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Apr 26, 2016 |
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Apr 26, 2016 18:03
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Make a sauna deal with Putin and promise they can build a 2nd Rosatom plant in exchange for them closing the border?
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Apr 26, 2016 18:16
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doverhog posted:Make a sauna deal with Putin and promise they can build a 2nd Rosatom plant in exchange for them closing the border? He'll close the border... AROUND US!
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Apr 26, 2016 18:29
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See, problem solved.
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Apr 26, 2016 18:34
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Herman Merman posted:except for the relatively minor danger caused by a handful of petrol bomb throwing ligurs of course you are projecting few isolated incidents to concern all ligurs because you're just afraid of white linen, besides we have signed international treaties that condemn petrol bombing, furthermore,
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Apr 26, 2016 18:54
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Jerry Cotton posted:He'll close the border... AROUND US! putin-san, envelop me in your strong arms in a wholesome christian way
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Apr 26, 2016 19:11
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Nauta posted:the fact that they traveled all the way here to seek asylum implies that they are not, in fact, immediate danger ...is my troll sense malfunctioning or are you serious? If the latter, let's say you're fleeing Iraq. Since you're now homeless, why on earth wouldn't you make an effort to flee further than Iran or Jordan or Turkey if it is at all possible? If we had a crisis here that would force me to flee and Sweden and Norway had closed their borders, or would be equally bad places to be in, I sure as heck would cross the Russian border but I wouldn't want to settle there.
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Apr 26, 2016 20:03
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In completely unrelated strain, anyone else pumped up / kind of weirded out about the newest hockey generation? A) We're going to have a crazy team at some point B) what the gently caress have they been feeding these kids 
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Apr 26, 2016 20:06
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DarkCrawler posted:B) what the gently caress have they been feeding these kids Someone had to buy all that surplus DDR hormone stuff and well Angela asked nicely, Juha's a nice guy, and booya, poju-poika saunoo
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Apr 26, 2016 20:22
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DarkCrawler posted:In completely unrelated strain, anyone else pumped up / kind of weirded out about the newest hockey generation? A) We're going to have a crazy team at some point B) what the gently caress have they been feeding these kids koskas ne seuraavat talviolympialaiset ovat? sieltä pitäis tällä kertaa saada kulta meille jotta saatais edes yksi pelaaja kolmoiskultakerhoon
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Apr 26, 2016 20:26
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Laine is like some bizarre hockey mutant cloned from all the discarded teeth they've been collecting from Hakametsä over the last decades and Puljujärvi apparently was throwing out his insides like two hours before snatching gold  and honestly those two have overshadowed other crazy good players too I don't know what suddenly happened
DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Apr 26, 2016 |
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Apr 26, 2016 20:46
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Valiantman posted:If the latter, let's say you're fleeing Iraq. Since you're now homeless, why on earth wouldn't you make an effort to flee further than Iran or Jordan or Turkey if it is at all possible? If we had a crisis here that would force me to flee and Sweden and Norway had closed their borders, or would be equally bad places to be in, I sure as heck would cross the Russian border but I wouldn't want to settle there. let's say you're fleeing a war-torn hellscape because you fear for your life and those close to you. Since you're now running for your life, why on earth would you leave women, children and old people behind to experience those horrible nightmares you just escaped and effectively leave them defenseless? If we had a crisis here that would force people to flee the country, 15-45-year-old men wouldn't be the main demographic on the run, it sure as heck would be a more natural representation of our country as a whole, i.e. women, children etc. included. I sure as heck would find the closest place not affected by the crisis because my life is in immediate danger. Shopping around on which gullible country gives me the best benefits wouldn't be my main priority. if you honestly believe that a "refugee" population of 70% young males are genuinely fleeing a war and are not economic migrants trying to exploit a well-intentioned system, you are one naive dumb fucker. also don't bother posting that hs article, i've read it
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Apr 26, 2016 20:59
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Nauta posted:let's say you're fleeing a war-torn hellscape because you fear for your life and those close to you. Since you're now running for your life, why on earth would you leave women, children and old people behind to experience those horrible nightmares you just escaped and effectively leave them defenseless? If we had a crisis here that would force people to flee the country, 15-45-year-old men wouldn't be the main demographic on the run, it sure as heck would be a more natural representation of our country as a whole, i.e. women, children etc. included. I sure as heck would find the closest place not affected by the crisis because my life is in immediate danger. Shopping around on which gullible country gives me the best benefits wouldn't be my main priority. Um you leave them in refugee camps, not in the middle of warzone, so you can cross the Mediterranean yourself because it is the dangerous route and you also have money for only one person to pay for smugglers so why the gently caress would you send an old person or a child who can't survive the journey nearly as well, much less the thousands of miles of trekking to the best possible location. Then you use family unification to get your family from the refugee camps. If you got enough money to bring your whole family over you do so, like tens of thousands have done! You've spent so little attention following the news you don't know this basic loving strategy that refugees have been using since the concept of asylum was invented and has been mentioned in probably every article and news story of any length about the crisis. This is something that even the right-wing groups talk all the time, because they don't like it one bit! And then you berate people who actually care enough about the situation to not completely humiliate themselves in a single post. Good job! Stick with the shitposting. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Apr 26, 2016 |
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Apr 26, 2016 22:00
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Nauta posted:let's say you're fleeing a war-torn hellscape because you fear for your life and those close to you. Since you're now running for your life, why on earth would you leave women, children and old people behind to experience those horrible nightmares you just escaped and effectively leave them defenseless? If we had a crisis here that would force people to flee the country, 15-45-year-old men wouldn't be the main demographic on the run, it sure as heck would be a more natural representation of our country as a whole, i.e. women, children etc. included. DarkCrawler answered to you already about the actual matter but let me ask you who are you projecting on me? You're not discussing with me in the above paragraph. I gave you a reasoning for "shopping" the best country to flee to. What does the above have to do with it? quote:I sure as heck would find the closest place not affected by the crisis because my life is in immediate danger. And after that? After you're not in danger of getting immediately shot or something but you still have no home or, well, anything? I don't believe you wouldn't want to leave an overpopulated Russian refugee camp in Siberia if you had an opportunity to cross over to, say, South Korea or Japan. quote:if you honestly believe that a "refugee" population of 70% young males are genuinely fleeing a war and are not economic migrants trying to exploit a well-intentioned system, you are one naive dumb fucker. also don't bother posting that hs article, i've read it Who are you projecting on me, seriously? Who on earth would be dumb enough to think that there are no economic migrants among the asylym seekers? That'd be almost as dumb as saying there are no real asylym seekers to begin with. I don't order Hesari since I don't live anywhere near the south.
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Apr 26, 2016 22:44
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DarkCrawler posted:Um you leave them in refugee camps, not in the middle of warzone, so you can cross the Mediterranean yourself because it is the dangerous route and you also have money for only one person to pay for smugglers so why the gently caress would you send an old person or a child who can't survive the journey nearly as well, much less the thousands of miles of trekking to the best possible location. Then you use family unification to get your family from the refugee camps. thanks, i follow the news and know of your basic loving strategy  but don't take everything i read or hear at face value. if you seriously believe they all come from the middle of a warzone, a refugee camp or have families at one then just lol. and even if they did, it wouldn't change the fact that they are asylum shoppingValiantman posted:DarkCrawler answered to you already about the actual matter but let me ask you who are you projecting on me? You're not discussing with me in the above paragraph. I gave you a reasoning for "shopping" the best country to flee to. What does the above have to do with it? you? yes i am? you wrote in hypotheticals and so did i quote:And after that? After you're not in danger of getting immediately shot or something but you still have no home or, well, anything? I don't believe you wouldn't want to leave an overpopulated Russian refugee camp in Siberia if you had an opportunity to cross over to, say, South Korea or Japan. of course i would shop around for the best deal for me but i wouldn't expect much because in practice nobody owes me anything barring some meaningless international treaties. the issue is "se ei oo tyhmä joka pyytää vaan se joka maksaa" quote:Who are you projecting on me, seriously? Who on earth would be dumb enough to think that there are no economic migrants among the asylym seekers? you? some dumb gently caress? Fushigi Yuugi fansub fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Apr 26, 2016 |
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Apr 26, 2016 23:00
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 e: Fine, I'll elaborate. It's not about hypotheticals, it's about you pulling the male/female ratio into the discussion out of nowhere. You're also saying I believe there are no economic migrants among the asylym seekers when I've not even touched that subject until you implied I'm a dumbass who thinks so, and you even quoted me saying that'd be dumb thing to say. You're projecting someone you've been arguing with onto me. Valiantman fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Apr 26, 2016 |
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Apr 26, 2016 23:37
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okay well i'm sorry i strawmanned you 
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Apr 26, 2016 23:45
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Oh damnit, now I don't get to be angry at a person in the Internet. 
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Apr 26, 2016 23:57
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Nauta posted:thanks, i follow the news and know of your basic loving strategy Yes and I suppose you must have also missed the fact that nobody in this thread believes that. Majority coming to Europe do come from warzones or refugee camps and did last year too. http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/download.php?id=927 Deal with it already! And "asylum shopping" lol yeah these assholes risking death again, spending all available means to guarantee the best possible lives for their families. I'm sure brave Nauta would be willing to spend his foreseeable life say, in a camp in a country that spends third of its GDP on refugees already and they have them as 1/4th of population, if he had means for something else. No refugee from Europe ever ended up anywhere else then the countries bordering them, right? Here's a pointer, if you don't know things don't be a dick about it? Also don't lie about what other people have said or believe in though this is not new advice. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 08:28 on Apr 27, 2016 |
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Apr 27, 2016 08:25
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DarkCrawler posted:Umm I don't care about mass immigration and its benefits or lack of benefits? No poo poo getting bunch of people from third world countries isn't a cash cow. I think we should do a fraction of the sacrifice other poorer countries (even in EU) are doing and not toss refugees to the wind because of shitheads who exploit the system. Simple as that. You don't agree with that you know, too bad? I guess I just have to cry myself to sleep with the fact that Finland does? A few "shitheads" who exploit the system? Do you understand that majority of them will never be able to fully support themselves in Europe? They will be a permanent underclass whom the working natives will have to support instead. The problem is that the number of educated and working natives keep shrinking and the number of immigrants, or their descendants, keeps increasing. Leading a country shouldn't be making "feelz good" policies without thinking the long term cost of them. That's why Sweden and Germany will be third world countries in about one generation. DarkCrawler posted:Like if your concept of nationalism and responsibility extends to "Yay my country gently caress everyone else" that's your right but don't bitch about other people setting other standards. "He thinks Finland should follow the deals it signs and the morals it has been preaching to the world for decades! What an rear end in a top hat!" There is nothing wrong with nationalism, it doesn't equate to being a loving nazi. People and their leaders are only responsible for, and owe allegiance to, their homeland. It is morally wrong to implement policies that help foreigners (who have nothing to do with your country or culture) at the expense of your own people. I don't understand why it's such a controversial standpoint. Valiantman posted:OhYeah, why is it that we shouldn't receive those people who seek help? But we can help them. Give money, personnel and other resources to countries that are housing the majority of the refugees (Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan) and put political and diplomatic pressure on Middle-Eastern leaders to solve the crisis quickly. We can help millions and end to conflict or we can help a fraction of those people and do nothing while countries like Syria are razed to the ground. One is a permanent solution which goes after the root of the problem, the other is a bandaid solution whose only goal is short-term: to appeal to your progressive voter base. Valiantman posted:Don't act dumb. Seeking help means that they travel all the way here and seek asylym. For some reason Sweden for example has decided that to test asylum seekers who claim to be underage is racist and discriminatory. So instead they have decided to put adult men together with vulnerable children. You know, err on the side of caution, so to speak. How can you check the identity of asylum seekers if most of them have destroyed their ID papers?
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