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AMReese posted:Or, you know, they're not thinking ahead and instead are reacting to what's immediately happened. But the plot to kill Myrcella was un-arguably plotted in cold blood. They planned this. It wasn't a gut reaction at all. They had two sand snakes accompanying Tristayne while two other sand snakes were with Doran and his bodyguards. They don't have cell phones so they had to plan all that out ahead of time. If Doran himself showed up while the sand snakes were fighting Jaime and somehow got injured in the fracas that'd kinda make sense, especially if he intervened to try to protect Jaime or something (but he'd just send his bodyguards, which is what he did) but they seriously sat down and plotted out for days how they were going to kill them. Hell, they were even sitting around waiting for Doran to get the note that Myrcella was dead, that was the trigger to kill him. They could have killed him sooner if they were just in a rage, but they waited and calculated when to do it. Vegetable posted:It'd have killed the surprise of the assassination for the audience Yeah this is the reason. They wanted it to be a big shock with very little buildup or foreshadowing, because that's what makes GOT popular  Gotta have those red wedding reaction videos.I was concerned that this season was being written mostly by Benioff and Weiss instead of GRRM, and this is probably symptomatic of that. Go for the big showy shocker, who cares if the story actually makes sense or if the details add up?
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Apr 26, 2016 22:44
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Zaphod42 posted:I was concerned that this season was being written mostly by Benioff and Weiss instead of GRRM, and this is probably symptomatic of that. Go for the big showy shocker, who cares if the story actually makes sense or if the details add up? It's not just that, it's that they're trying to reach the same conclusion at GRRM while taking a different path to get there since they're cutting off plotlines they don't see as essential, regardless of whether or not the end result makes any sense.
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Apr 26, 2016 22:47
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steinrokkan posted:Yes, they started yelling about having popular support and Doran being hated etc. after they had killed him. What I mean is that instead of defending the assassination retroactively, they should have built up the Dorne setting so that it would appear logical without a need for post-hoc justification. Show some of the people of Dorne, show how and why they express their grievances and how the prince is ignoring them etc. Yeah, juts a single shot of a crowd like spitting on Doran or something would have made it all go down way better. Especially if they had done that last season, and then gave it time to fester. Bobo the Red posted:Oberyn literally got himself killed. He jumped at the chance to be in a fight he had no business in, and then, after getting the upper hand, did some grandstanding that got him killed. Quite lawfully killed, at that. Exactly, I was gonna say this earlier myself and left it off. Obryn choose to go duel the mountain, its not worth getting that flippin' mad when he happens to lose the duel. That's not really even all that dishonorable. You can say that they're just really mad because of the rape of Elia, but its hard to argue. They managed to wait this long, but NO LONGER! We can wait 10 years for revenge but NOT ELEVEN!
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Apr 26, 2016 22:48
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Vegetable posted:It'd have killed the surprise of the assassination for the audience Yeah, I agree with this. I understand the critique, but I prefer the surprise of the assassination. After seasons of Littlefinger, Cersei, and Jon scheming in pursuit of big-picture ends, Doran's assassination emphasized the importance of the small-picture. All his talk about peace and stability gets undone by a bunch of family drama, just as Cersei was undone by a bunch of insignificant religious fanatics and Jon was undone by resentment about his resettlement policies. The show seems to be developing a theme where long-term plans get undone by people with short-sighted interests. Bobo the Red posted:Doran wasn't in a position to avenge anyone. Elia was married to Rhaegar, who wanted to gently caress another lady so badly, he drove the country into war. She was killed, yes, but she was also the wife and mother of a deposed dynasty, her odds weren't great. What is Doran supposed to do? "Hey King, we think your wife's dad you deeply depend on may have killed your mortal enemy's wife, can you execute them please? Evidence? Nah, we don't have that." You're confusing my explanation of the situation with support for the Sand Snakes. As I said, the Sand Snakes are furious that the Lannisters keep killing their family members and were willing to drag the realm into war to exact vengeance. They care less about the costs than about getting revenge. They are not thinking ahead. It's stupid, but it isn't stupid writing. QuoProQuid fucked around with this message at 22:53 on Apr 26, 2016 |
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Apr 26, 2016 22:48
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http://www.deemgeek.com/2016/04/game-of-thrones-is-so-popular-it-has.html Apparently millions of people are watching Game of Thrones instead of porn on Sundays.
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Apr 26, 2016 22:51
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Bobo the Red posted:Also, and I think this bears real consideration, there are exactly two kingdoms that have not been loving devastated by war, and Dorne is one of those. Dorne is doing loving amazing by current Westerosi standards. If the Dornish want to rise up now, they are openly stupid What? That all makes perfect sense. Like you said, Dorne is doing amazing, while the rest of the continent goes to hell over the bullshit caused by the politics of King's Landing. Why would the Dornish want to continue to tie their fate to the system that is currently circling the drain? Why wouldn't they rise up now? The Kingdom isn't even in control of the capital itself, this is the perfect opportunity to rise up and become fully independent.
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Apr 26, 2016 22:52
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Raxivace posted:http://www.deemgeek.com/2016/04/game-of-thrones-is-so-popular-it-has.html Who needs porn when you have Melisandre
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Apr 26, 2016 23:02
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QuoProQuid posted:You're confusing my explanation of the situation with support for the Sand Snakes. As I said, the Sand Snakes are furious that the Lannisters keep killing their family members and were willing to drag the realm into war to exact vengeance. They care less about the logistics about that fight than honor. The Sand Snakes have killed literally as many Martells as the Lannisters have. There's zero honor in any of the poo poo they did. They killed an innocent girl and then betrayed their Prince, with the additional double bonus of kin slaying. Which is fine, honor is actively stupid (just ask Ned), but the thing is that there's no honor or sense, or anything. It's just batshit crazy. Which would be fine, except we already have Ramsay to wantonly butcher people. But even Ramsay wouldn't kill Roose to avenge Miranda (even if he probably will kill Roose for other reasons) Sheriff posted:What? That all makes perfect sense. Like you said, Dorne is doing amazing, while the rest of the continent goes to hell over the bullshit caused by the politics of King's Landing. Why would the Dornish want to continue to tie their fate to the system that is currently circling the drain? Why wouldn't they rise up now? The Kingdom isn't even in control of the capital itself, this is the perfect opportunity to rise up and become fully independent. Because those are good reasons to declare independence, not war. Dorne is doing great during a time everyone else is doing extremely poorly. That is not a reason for a coup at all. The only way an aggressive war makes sense is if all of loving Dorne is so obsessed with avenging Elia that they resent their relatively privileged position and would trade it for a war that can only really gain them "revenge" (against a dead man, I might add), since Dorne doesn't have the numbers or geography to seize a lot of territory. And that somewhere in their lust to avenge the Martells, they became okay with killing Martells to do it. Sinteres posted:Politifact rating: True. I wanted to start with something indisputable, and it's past the time to be talking about how Stannis was openly villainous Bobo the Red fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Apr 26, 2016 |
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Apr 26, 2016 23:05
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Bobo the Red posted:The Sand Snakes have killed literally as many Martells as the Sand Snakes have. Politifact rating: True.
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Apr 26, 2016 23:06
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In time Dorne will burn because the usruper will prove unfit for rule. I bet Tommen leads an army to deal with them and dies on campaign.
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Apr 26, 2016 23:29
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What a shocker I fully expect them to use Dany to invade and take over Dorne, killing the Sand Snakes and Ellaria. Dany doesn't tolerate child killers, after all. AMReese fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Apr 26, 2016 |
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Apr 26, 2016 23:38
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I read the whole thing. There's no way they could have squeezed all those extra characters and plot points into the show. They ultimately cut it pretty shittily but this original book-form plotline was always untenable.
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Apr 26, 2016 23:43
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Reading the whole thing does make you think it'd have been cool as hell to see Areo fight. That giant fuckoff battle axe 
Vegetable fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Apr 26, 2016 |
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Apr 26, 2016 23:44
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We could make a list of people we would have liked to have seen given more of a chance to show off their combat prowess. Starting with Ser Barristan.
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Apr 26, 2016 23:50
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I guess the thing I can appreciate from the standpoint of the show-runners is that the Dornish plot in the books is just as convoluted and stupid. Quentyn is probably the single most confoundedly pointless character in a work of fiction I've ever read, and the rest of the plot with the abduction of Myrcella is also pointless because it ends up generating no actual follow-up, it's just caught out and stopped. Arianne's romance with the kingsguard guy and his pointless death is also dumb. Since the show doesn't have Aegon, Quentyn, or Arianne, there's basically nothing to work with after Oberyn's death; but the things that WERE worked with in the book weren't any good either. In both book and show, the things we haven't read/seen have a lot of work to do to redeem the presence of these characters at all.
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Apr 27, 2016 00:01
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steinrokkan posted:Uh, maybe they should have shown any of that. You wanted them to have more Dorne? They should have just shown everyone in Dorne dropping dead with no explanation.
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Apr 27, 2016 00:17
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paperchaseguy posted:A bit late but here's my team poo poo, I left out Ser Pounce 
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Apr 27, 2016 00:31
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GRRM could have left a memo saying "Kill every Dornish person. I don't care how. It's my secret shame." In fact, someone alter that letter that Doran got and make it sound like he's about to get hosed up.
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Apr 27, 2016 00:51
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Libertine posted:I guess the thing I can appreciate from the standpoint of the show-runners is that the Dornish plot in the books is just as convoluted and stupid. Quentyn is probably the single most confoundedly pointless character in a work of fiction I've ever read, and the rest of the plot with the abduction of Myrcella is also pointless because it ends up generating no actual follow-up, it's just caught out and stopped. Arianne's romance with the kingsguard guy and his pointless death is also dumb. Since the show doesn't have Aegon, Quentyn, or Arianne, there's basically nothing to work with after Oberyn's death; but the things that WERE worked with in the book weren't any good either. In both book and show, the things we haven't read/seen have a lot of work to do to redeem the presence of these characters at all. GRRM loves to subvert the genre. The Prince who goes on an adventure find his Bride and return her home is about as old as they come. I could totally see cutting Dorne entirely. But when why dick around in S5? Maybe they'll manage to create a compelling arch out of Dorne, but I'm skeptical.
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Apr 27, 2016 01:14
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Xae posted:GRRM loves to subvert the genre. The Prince who goes on an adventure find his Bride and return her home is about as old as they come. Dorne was an excuse to get Jaime out of King's Landing so that there was no one around telling Cersei how dumb all her plans were, and also it gives the Lannisters a new external enemy to fight. Cutting it entirely would require some serious revamping. Hopefully, though, the focus will now shift away from Dorne itself, since most of the characters are dead and the show can instead focus on King's Landing as the Lannisters plot their revenge.
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Apr 27, 2016 01:18
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vyelkin posted:Dorne was an excuse to get Jaime out of King's Landing so that there was no one around telling Cersei how dumb all her plans were, and also it gives the Lannisters a new external enemy to fight. Cutting it entirely would require some serious revamping. Cersei: Go to the Riverlands. Find the lords who will turn on us and kill them. Give Lannister cousins or Bannermen their lands and titles. Jamie: Can we gently caress when I get back?
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Apr 27, 2016 01:20
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Vegetable posted:Reading the whole thing does make you think it'd have been cool as hell to see Areo fight. That giant fuckoff battle axe Seriously. At least give the guy a couple swings on his way down! People simply do not die instantly like that, especially not loving nearly 7-foot tall burly men being poked by a girl. What an injustice. I'm sure we'll get loooots more sand snake awkward spinny fighting though! Libertine posted:I guess the thing I can appreciate from the standpoint of the show-runners is that the Dornish plot in the books is just as convoluted and stupid. Quentyn is probably the single most confoundedly pointless character in a work of fiction I've ever read, and the rest of the plot with the abduction of Myrcella is also pointless because it ends up generating no actual follow-up, it's just caught out and stopped. Arianne's romance with the kingsguard guy and his pointless death is also dumb. Since the show doesn't have Aegon, Quentyn, or Arianne, there's basically nothing to work with after Oberyn's death; but the things that WERE worked with in the book weren't any good either. In both book and show, the things we haven't read/seen have a lot of work to do to redeem the presence of these characters at all. But this is exactly why the show should slow down and do things like Aegon's subplot rather than sprinting through all the books just to catch up with GRRM so they can write their own story. You've gotta build those things up. Instead of Aegon, Quentyn or Arianne, we're going to get a bunch of cardboard-cliche characters written by D&D.
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Apr 27, 2016 01:30
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This is the first season opener who didn't remind us the Blackfish escaped the Twins, or that Tully was still a prisoner. Did they just gently caress off with all that for more Dorne?
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Apr 27, 2016 01:34
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Zaphod42 posted:Yeah, juts a single shot of a crowd like spitting on Doran or something would have made it all go down way better. Especially if they had done that last season, and then gave it time to fester. Exactly. 100%. I think that's actually my problem with Dorne: it feels unpopulated. There are NO people in Dorne, save some guards or soldiers. We have literally no sense of the disposition or politics of people who live there, so the Sand Snakes' "uprising" feels like a handful of bitter jackasses fighting with their extended family. Any scene like what you describe would've done a lot to justify it. It's especially jarring because tons of other plots do accomplish a similar goal of showing popular discontent (certainly in King's Landing, but also anti-Bolton sentiment in the North, the Harpies in Mereen...Thorne and the other Night's Watch hating Jon Snow was pretty well precipitated.) In Dorne, it's so poorly established why anything was happening, on a basic plot level let alone emotionally.
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Apr 27, 2016 01:52
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I forget, where is Littlefinger?
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Apr 27, 2016 02:02
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Cover my Eyes posted:I forget, where is Littlefinger? Pretty sure his last sighting was getting permission from Cersei to take the Knights of the Vale and depose Roose Bolton as Warden of the North.
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Apr 27, 2016 02:06
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Xealot posted:Exactly. 100%. Elyria saying "how long has it been since you've left this palace?" almost felt like they were trying to lampshade that fact. But that only goes so far. At the very least include a scene of the sand snakes whispering to the palace guards or something!
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Apr 27, 2016 02:10
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The "5 best things in life according to Dothraki" bit was funny and all, but I feel the funniest line in this episode has gone woefully overlooked: "It's a sad loving statement if Dolorous Edd is our only chance." I dunno why really, but that cracked me the gently caress up. Poor Edd.
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Apr 27, 2016 02:11
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Zaphod42 posted:
Don't you think this is a little on the nose? When I saw them stab the gently caress out of Doran and the guards didn't act it made sense to me, I didn't need to see them saying "okay we are gonna stab him now just dont move ok?"
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Apr 27, 2016 02:13
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vyelkin posted:Pretty sure his last sighting was getting permission from Cersei to take the Knights of the Vale and depose Roose Bolton as Warden of the North.
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Apr 27, 2016 02:17
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vyelkin posted:Pretty sure his last sighting was getting permission from Cersei to take the Knights of the Vale and depose Roose Bolton as Warden of the North. I feel like I... kind of remember this? What the gently caress was his reasoning for wanting to shank the Lannister's ally?
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Apr 27, 2016 02:18
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The Sand Snakes are more like Rickard Karstark than Littlefinger. The show isn't trying to trick you into thinking they're geniuses. It doesn't take a genius to underhandedly murder people in cold blood.
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Apr 27, 2016 02:20
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:I feel like I... kind of remember this? He told Cersei, "Sansa's with the Boltons, I have no idea how that happened." And she got pissed and told him to command the Vale's forces and invade the North to kill the Boltons and capture Sansa. He's probably not actually gonna do half of that.
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Apr 27, 2016 02:23
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Its also kinda funny that Dorans son got speared
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Apr 27, 2016 02:23
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Hang on a tick, how did the sand snakes even get on board Trystane's ship? Either A) they followed him in another ship and hopped over right after Jaime left, which is awkward at best, and why weren't they all wet? Why didn't Trystane seem surprised to see them at first? Seems he expected them. Or B) They were onboard the ship as guards or something, and then after Jaime left they turned on him. But then... why the gently caress would Doran let the Sand Snakes accompany Trystane to King's Landing? That makes zero sense. Why would Jaime let them on board? Why wouldn't Doran send like, one or two of his own guard along with Trystane? Man this Dorne plot is full of plot holes like swiss cheese. E: Its a straight up continuity error. All the sand snakes are shown on the shore when Myrcella leaves. Then magically 2 of them are on-board the ship later on. They're relying on the season break for us to forget. The Duggler posted:Don't you think this is a little on the nose? Not like RIGHT THEN, but if like, a few episodes ago we'd seen some guards whispering or one of the sand snakes meeting with a guard, that'd build poo poo up and then we'd forget about it just in time for the stab and be like "oh shiiiiit that's what they were planning" Lycus posted:He told Cersei, "Sansa's with the Boltons, I have no idea how that happened." And she got pissed and told him to command the Vale's forces and invade the North to kill the Boltons and capture Sansa. He's probably not actually gonna do half of that. She didn't even command him so much as he offered, and she even kinda balked at the offer at first, and then he said "what have you got to lose? me?" and she was like "eh gently caress it, okay" Littlefinger playing everybody. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Apr 27, 2016 |
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Apr 27, 2016 02:34
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Zaphod42 posted:Not like RIGHT THEN, but if like, a few episodes ago we'd seen some guards whispering or one of the sand snakes meeting with a guard, that'd build poo poo up and then we'd forget about it just in time for the stab and be like "oh shiiiiit that's what they were planning"
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Apr 27, 2016 02:53
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Zaphod42 posted:She didn't even command him so much as he offered, and she even kinda balked at the offer at first, and then he said "what have you got to lose? me?" and she was like "eh gently caress it, okay" It's almost embarrassing, rewatching season 5, just how inept Cersei is at everything, and how she constantly gets outplayed by smarter people (dumb Tyrells excluded), but then you remember that she's terrible and don't feel bad.
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Apr 27, 2016 03:36
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Bobo the Red posted:Doran wasn't in a position to avenge anyone. Elia was married to Rhaegar, who wanted to gently caress another lady so badly, he drove the country into war. She was killed, yes, but she was also the wife and mother of a deposed dynasty, her odds weren't great. What is Doran supposed to do? "Hey King, we think your wife's dad you deeply depend on may have killed your mortal enemy's wife, can you execute them please? Evidence? Nah, we don't have that." The way it seems to have been interpreted is that Doran didn't do his duty and get justice for Elia so Oberyn was killed trying to do Doran's job. And Oberyn may have wanted Tywin dead, but I think a lot of people would have been satisfied with the execution of The Mountain which even I don't understand why Doran didn't push for/scheme to kill. Marrying his son to a Lannister and sending him off in the care of another Lannister when he turns up armed is also in poor taste. It just looks like appeasement. So yeah, I can see how grief and anger could fester into wanting to murder the authority figure who seems to be doing worse than nothing. And if Trystane is a lot like his father, and was eager to marry a Lannister then there's no end in sight unless he dies too. That's what I took away from it anyway. But it was poorly presented.
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Apr 27, 2016 04:14
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Strong Convections posted:The way it seems to have been interpreted is that Doran didn't do his duty and get justice for Elia so Oberyn was killed trying to do Doran's job. And Oberyn may have wanted Tywin dead, but I think a lot of people would have been satisfied with the execution of The Mountain which even I don't understand why Doran didn't push for/scheme to kill. Ellaria and the Sand Snakes wanting revenge in a way that is straight up crazy I could buy. Sure, Ellaria spent what, two decades with Oberyn at the least (one of the Sand Snakes is her daughter, I think) and somehow missed that a. he would find killing Myrcella repugnant and b. he would certainly not be into the brutal murder of his brother and nephew. Somehow, none of the Sand Snakes caught that either. They all ignore the fact that Oberyn got his own dumbass killed. So they come up with a half assed plan to kill Myrcella. They fail. For whatever reason, they are allowed to be near the girl they tried to kill again, so they succeed this time. Now, this is where it gets difficult: at some point in the weeks/few months that have passed, they have not only plotted to kill Doran, they gathered the full support of all the palace guards. How did they do this in secret? How loving disloyal are these guards to their Prince only a short time after they literally stopped these same idiots from killing Myrcella? Did something happen? Did she approach them all secretly, and somehow convince 100% of them? Were they always disloyal (and if so, why on earth did they stop them the first time)? And then there's the loving Prestige: they kill Trystane on the boat he left on. So either they snuck aboard a boat they watched leave (and this master plan was already in motion back then), or they managed to board it as it returned to Dorne... which means that the crew of his ship collaborated. If the crew was disloyal the whole time (and they had to be, since it's not like Ellaria could sweet talk them), why would they need to poison Myrcella at all? Why would they let Jaime return home? How did they put all this together in the few days between their attempt and Jaime's departure? The trouble isn't that they're stupid and psychotic(that was season 5's trouble). It's that now, somehow, they have all of Dorne going along with it. And it doesn't make sense, both logistically, and just in terms of what's going on in Westeros. Dorne is prospering in a time of war. The Martells have been the rulers of Sunpear for ages. Now we're supposed to buy that all these soldiers want the last Martells dead... for failing to avenge the other Martells? Not to mention that Ellaria and the Sand Snakes have zero claim to Sunspear. They could easily be plunging Dorne into the dumbest civil war ever.
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Apr 27, 2016 05:21
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Strong Convections posted:That's what I took away from it anyway. But it was poorly presented. Just think of Ellaria as of fantasy Bush, and it all makes sense.
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Apr 27, 2016 05:26
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