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Schwarzwald posted:So the Jedi shouldn't free the slaves because they'd have to give up political power to do so? The jedi choose to not fight for droid rights because they see themselves as the reason the universe hasn't been ruined by the Sith for a thousand years/generations. To continue this they require the will of the people. Why do you think a Jedi dating a senator is so taboo? As for whether they should or should not is dependent on how important you consider them. In their eyes its not "lose power vs. Free droids", its "functioning and safe universe vs. Free droids". We the omniscient viewer can see that the jedi can fall and re-emerge. They do not know if their peace will be their last. BravestOfTheLamps posted:Again, you're confused. You're saying that the Jedi are both indoctrinated to consider slavery good, and are also making a conscious ethical choice to follow a democratic mandate to uphold/ignore slavery. It can be both; most are indoctrinated into society, others (Qui-Gon) are sympathetic. Something having more than one answer is not Confusion. quote:Either their evil because of ignorance or evil because of choice, make up your mind. They are ignorant of the future, but do their best to ensure justice and peace within their role. I do not have a black/white view of this. They edited this out posted:TFA isn't a dividing line. I'm glad you agree with me tgat droids are free in the TFA period. quote:This is irrelevant On the contrary; your answer determines whether you wholly believe in your own argument, or are simply arguing for its own sake. You fear answering this because you fear the reader's reaction.
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Apr 27, 2016 23:36
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:You talk of 'the people', but have no trust in the people whatsoever: Ignoring the self-stroking, you can have faith in people but recognize the reality of progress, and the imperfection in all societies. Even in your own words you acknowledge the importance of large-scale support.
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Apr 27, 2016 23:38
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Neurolimal posted:The jedi choose to not fight for droid rights because they see themselves as the reason the universe hasn't been ruined by the Sith for a thousand years/generations. To continue this they require the will of the people. Why do you think a Jedi dating a senator is so taboo? I appreciate that you actually get into the practical applications of fighting slavery in Star Wars, but the Jedi were guilty of a lot more than apathy. They were active participants in child slavery and indoctrination themselves. It was so entrenched it was initially unfathomable for their ruling elite to consider apprenticeship for someone not indoctrinated shortly after birth. To properly fight slavery they would also have to eliminate the recruitment base they're accustomed to. They weren't willing to make the sacrifices necessary, and it sealed their fate. Y'know, clouded by the dark side and all that.
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Apr 27, 2016 23:46
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Neurolimal posted:Ignoring the self-stroking, you can have faith in people but recognize the reality of progress, and the imperfection in all societies. Even in your own words you acknowledge the importance of large-scale support. My wager is that people are already ready to participate, if presented with the option. It has nothing to do with sitting on your hands and 'waiting for conditions to be right'. In your case, that entails waiting for at least 80 years, or indefinitely (since there is absolutely no evidence that the New Republic in TFA had actually ended the practice).
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Apr 27, 2016 23:46
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:My wager is that people are already ready to participate, if presented with the option. It has nothing to do with sitting on your hands and 'waiting for conditions to be right'. I'd wager the opposite; the universe burns through so many droids that even Tatooine (an impoverished non-republic planet) has scrap droids lying around for slave boys to experiment with. An enormous faction enjoys their labor, senators use them for sex, diners in coruscant simultaneously insult them and exploit them, a Naboo princess' double is surprised at the idea of praising a droid. That doesn't mean "do nothing", but it does mean "this society isn't going to accept a ruthless coup to implement droid abolition". quote:In your case, that entails waiting for at least 80 years, or indefinitely (since there is absolutely no evidence that the New Republic in TFA had actually ended the practice). As opposed to your suggestion, which is to enforce authoritarian rule to force society into accepting free droids, which totally will not backfire at all. At least my bottom-up belief doesn't cause Star Wars Episode 4: A New Federation.
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Apr 27, 2016 23:58
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Neurolimal posted:It can be both; most are indoctrinated into society, others (Qui-Gon) are sympathetic. Something having more than one answer is not Confusion. TFA does not feature free droids. The question of free droids is irrelevant in TFA. The illusion of progress that you see in it is simply the movie ignoring any social context for its story and characters, which I've illustrated before. There's no question of if anyone was "good" before TFA, because TFA isn't actually advancement. It's regression. The question of what the Jedi will be is irrelevant, because they're gone (again). The question of what the Republic will be is irrelevant, because they're gone (again). The question of clone/storm troopers is irrelevant, because Finn doesn't stand for them. The question of Tatooine is irrelevant, because Rey doesn't stand for them. Both characters have the same basic problem: their background is just a hindrance for their self-actualization instead of a way to characterize them. The question of Force is irrelevant, because the movie doesn't care for faith. The Jedi in the prequels choose wrong, and are destroyed for it. They whole-heartedly accept slavery and corruption by joining the Clone Wars. Whether or not they or their society was good doesn't matter; what matters is what they did. These children's movies are quite clear on the failure of the Jedi. TFA doesn't learn from this, which is why it's a very bad addition to Star Wars. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Apr 28, 2016 |
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Apr 27, 2016 23:58
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:TFA does not feature free droids. The question of free droids is irrelevant in TFA. The illusion of progress that you see in it is simply the movie ignoring any social context for its story and characters, which I've illustrated before. Droids retire, they are granted life-supporting surgery, they are protected from slavers, they enjoy cantinas, they form bonds with fellow resistance members, they are looked upon fondly after two droids aid in ending the Empire's reign. quote:There's no question of if anyone was "good" before TFA, because TFA isn't actually advancement. It's regression. TFA was not the important part of that question. The fact that you become bloodthirsty at its inclusion in the series says much, but does not provide an answer. The question is exactly the same if asked "is everyone in the Star Wars universe evil?" quote:The question of Force is irrelevant, because the movie doesn't care for faith. It cares greatly about faith; it is through faith that a droid is protected (and by extension Luke), and it is through faith that Rey is guided to Luke. What you mean is that TFA cares little for religion-for-religion's-sake. quote:The Jedi in the prequels choose wrong, and are destroyed for it. They whole-heartedly accept slavery and warmongering by joining the Clone Wars. They were never good, and neither was their society. These children's movies are quite clear on the failure of the Jedi. They fail as a result of their aggressive transformation, but it is not through slavery that they fall. That they do nothing is a pity, but an entirely understandable and sympathetic one. quote:TFA doesn't learn from this, which is why it's a very bad addition to Star Wars. So much for "decent movie". I am happy to see the mask fall.
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Apr 28, 2016 00:06
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Filthy Casual posted:I appreciate that you actually get into the practical applications of fighting slavery in Star Wars, but the Jedi were guilty of a lot more than apathy. They were active participants in child slavery and indoctrination themselves. It was so entrenched it was initially unfathomable for their ruling elite to consider apprenticeship for someone not indoctrinated shortly after birth. To properly fight slavery they would also have to eliminate the recruitment base they're accustomed to. They weren't willing to make the sacrifices necessary, and it sealed their fate. Y'know, clouded by the dark side and all that. This is a more interesting argument than what has been presented. We aren't shown how children become jedi, but forced recruiting isn't impossible nor foreign to the slavery-heavy period. I've already mentioned indoctrination, and I agree with you there. Anakin in general is an odd exception to the system, and its hard to immediately dismiss indoctrination in the universe when the only non-indoctrinated member leads to their destruction. I'm not entirely sold on the reading, but I can respect it.
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Apr 28, 2016 00:13
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Neurolimal posted:Droids retire, they are granted life-supporting surgery, they are protected from slavers, they enjoy cantinas, they form bonds with fellow resistance members, they are looked upon fondly after two droids aid in ending the Empire's reign. In other words, the question is simply bypassed. Neurolimal posted:TFA was not the important part of that question. The fact that you become bloodthirsty at its inclusion in the series says much, but does not provide an answer. The question is exactly the same if asked "is everyone in the Star Wars universe evil?" Trying to define them as essentially good or evil is completely irrelevant. Action and choices are what matter. The Jedi accept clone troopers, who shoot them in the back. They choose wrong. This is pretty unambiguous. It's not even a matter of blind indoctrination, it was a conscious choice to accept the industrial exploitation that the Empire embodies. The Jedi chose to enforce peace, but the peace was simply the path to the Empire. The idea that history is simply a progress towards perfection is false. Neurolimal posted:So much for "decent movie". I am happy to see the mask fall. TFA is a decent movie. It is a very bad addition to the Star Wars series. This is because, as I've shown before, it's a bad sequel. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Apr 28, 2016 |
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Apr 28, 2016 00:20
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NEUROLIMNAL RECAP: -The imposition of Federal laws abolishing slavery would result in a war of Jedi aggression. -Abolition infringes on planetary states' rights. -Slavery is heritage, not hate. -The sheer number of bodies cast into landfills and open graves is clear evidence of democracy at work, and therefore a testament to the validity of slavery as an institution. -End the Fed(?)
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Apr 28, 2016 00:43
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:NEUROLIMNAL RECAP: Pinnacle of comedy, this one.
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Apr 28, 2016 00:53
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:You're arguing that TFA trades a sense of belief for a vague and inoffensive moral imperative. Gonna riff off this in relation to Kylo. This may go a little far, but it's in trying to find the new boundaries being set in TFA. TFA is trying really hard to make Kylo Ren the bad guy Jedi-turned-Sith padawan with allusions to Anakin and the younglings; Being surrounded by clones in a vision-dream-nightmare, but it's muddled and confused by this temptation of the light stuff. So he's depicted as a crazy religious grandchild trying to understand the meaning of the messages from his (Grand)Father and his last act. Why did he abandon me? Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani? So it's trying to make connections with Han Solo, the confused love(romance) threads from the OT and Darth Vader. But it's been watered down, by trying to not say anything too controversial, not to make too many waves to avoid the disturbing thoughts and influence of The Force. So the reversal of Han Solo being tempted to join Kylo Ren through The Force isn't there as has been pointed out in the past. The Force is deafening in its silence in The Force Awakens. So when Kylo(TFA) tortures Poe and Rey they make invisible the droid on screen as furniture; The table, but leave a vague allusion to this absence of the droids body(are we inside? etc). I mean there's a vague allusion to something floating in the background but it's rendered inert(R2-D2); So they aren't walking through a door together.    We (do not)get the Coruscant Death Star(now Republic System) being the target from the new technological terror that can destroy whole planets(systems), however it's no match for the power of The Force. TFA is kinda strange in it's depiction of torture and it lends to this aspect of confusion and the mixing of messages. Almost posing it in the form of a question, like so; The droids were tortured from the OT? C3PO's new red arm and R2-D2 being rendered inert etc; Rey pulling a Judge Anderson from Dredd reversal on Kylo and is now sort-of using torture? is the truth of torture somewhere in the middle? So Kylo's in turmoil, fear, confusion over this idea of The Force(light? dark?), Love(hate?empathy?tolerance?) and turning the sword on yourself, your father, mother etc. "You're afraid!"    Great thing about that Auralnauts video is Kylo's voice being amplified by magnification into the overwhelming Voice Of God "HOW 'BOUT NOW?". They emphasize his droid like voice as sound as sensory deprivation(torture); Straight up the Voice of Kylo Ren is that of the droid furniture. The next Disney Star War with Snoke better have him as the everlasting know-it-all Yogurt! statue getting dropped on someone's foot. edit:The joke being Kylo doesn't know what he's saying, he can't hear himself speak etc. Also a note on that last post regarding TPM. Jar Jar's reaction must be read along side the Jedi action(fighting) in relation to the droids(thinking a thought) and Queen Amidala's deadpan stare. brawleh fucked around with this message at 03:40 on Apr 28, 2016 |
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Apr 28, 2016 01:07
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Neurolimal posted:This is a more interesting argument than what has been presented. We aren't shown how children become jedi, but forced recruiting isn't impossible nor foreign to the slavery-heavy period. I've already mentioned indoctrination, and I agree with you there. What brought me to that conclusion is, how much agency can a kid from age 1-4 have? They'd have to have started around that age since they're doing blindfolded lightsaber training by 5. That's definitely a little too early for kids to be signing their life away to any ethos. If the kids aren't making the choice, then it leaves a number of different sketchy ways to get kids: -Get the parents to hand force-sensitive children over. Given the Jedi's role as special forces commandos, this would be like forcing your child to be a Navy SEAL right after potty training. Also that whole "selling your child into slavery" deal. -Literally kidnap them. -Adopt force-sensitive kids from orphanages, street urchins. This would be okay if leaving the Order wasn't considered such a huge deal (see: Ashoka). While they don't brand her a traitor, its kinda weird you don't see more Jedi peacing out around the time they start strongarming for Republic disputes. That gives it a vibe similar to FO conditioning. -Win them in a podrace bet. Or really any kind of gamble/test of skill. The kid is in a bad spot just based on the nature of the transaction, but you're still make a commodity of them. Points for the rescue, but that whole nobody leaves thing keeps it firmly in the sketch category. Plus, its not like you see the Jedi hanging with their family much. Why is that? At least some of them should have living kin, pretty suspicious when coupled with that whole "no attachments" policy. Jim Jones would love these guys.
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Apr 28, 2016 02:54
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Neurolimal posted:What is new is the integration of newer fans. Nobody under 40 is going to have memories of seeing A New Hope. Plenty of new people will remember seeing The Force Awakens. Uhhh I'm under 40 and I definitely remember watching A New Hope with my dad on VHS. I also remember going to a marathon of the OT when the re-releases came out. This dog don't hunt.
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Apr 28, 2016 11:53
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Neurolimal posted:While not new to the series, the film continues to have intrigue, loss, family bonding, drama, and adventure. The movie repeats them, actually. If there's nothing new, it's just pointless repetition. Neurolimal posted:What is new is the integration of newer fans. Nobody under 40 is going to have memories of seeing A New Hope. Plenty of new people will remember seeing The Force Awakens. Setting aside the utter nonsense of "nobody under 40", this is nothing intrinsic to the movie itself. It's just hollow "more Star Wars" nonsense. What are the fans integrated to? The fandom? Why do they need to be integrated to the fandom? BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 12:56 on Apr 28, 2016 |
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Apr 28, 2016 12:53
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I'd like to discuss what a SW film directed by Shane Carruth would be like.
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Apr 28, 2016 14:18
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well why not posted:I'd like to discuss what a SW film directed by Shane Carruth would be like. I don't think he'd necessarily be a good choice for Star Wars though considering the kinds of movies Primer and Upstream Color are, but it would probably be interesting at the very least. Raxivace fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Apr 28, 2016 |
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Apr 28, 2016 15:47
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Here are a few rough visual notes on visual poetry in relation to ideology(Jedi/Sith) and radical love(Vader's choice) in relation to dreams and nightmares from The Phantom Menace. Yoda: Always two there are, no more, no less. A master and an apprentice. Mace Windu: But which was destroyed, the master or the apprentice?       Darth Maul: At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will have revenge. Darth Sideous: You have been well trained my young apprentice. They will be no match for you. IMDB Goof. "During the fight over and around the droid control ship, Anakin says to R2D2, "I'll try spinning, that's a good trick." Anakin is seen to turn the flight controls to the left, but his craft spins to his right. In an earlier scene (right after the auto pilot is disconnected) Anakin says, "Let's go left", turns the controls to the left, and the scene tilts to Anakin's left, showing that the controls are working backwards in one of the two scenes."      
brawleh fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Apr 28, 2016 |
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Apr 28, 2016 15:57
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Perhaps it's a useful exercise in discussion like this to remember that one of the original intents for Star Wars was to be read in context with Apocalypse Now.
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Apr 28, 2016 16:18
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Neurolimal posted:Nobody under 40 is going to have memories of seeing A New Hope. Plenty of new people will remember seeing The Force Awakens. this was a dumb thing to say considering plenty of children, myself included, have vivid memories of watching the special editions of the ot in theaters
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Apr 28, 2016 17:27
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Yea, the special edition theatrical run was wildly successful and made almost a billion dollars.
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Apr 28, 2016 17:36
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The theater experience, while awesome, doesn't have a monopoly on turning people into Star Wars fans. Home video gave the series its enduring cultural presence, took away the individual films' expiration dates if you will. TFA's theatrical run was really intense and short compared to ANH, so if it's going to remain culturally relevant past 2016 it's going to be through home streaming and blu rays.
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Apr 28, 2016 17:46
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Not just home video, but in the States the airing of the movies was like an annual event. I know for sure that's how I became a Honeymooners and Twilight Zone fan.
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Apr 28, 2016 17:52
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Yeah when the SEs came out in theaters we went to see them and most of the people there were in full-on cosplay, which is something I'd never seen before. Even now you wouldn't see that level of devotion for most movies. Even TFA only had one cosplayer there. The SEs were huge.
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Apr 28, 2016 18:09
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Homework Explainer posted:this was a dumb thing to say considering plenty of children, myself included, have vivid memories of watching the special editions of the ot in theaters Sure, adjust it to whatever works for you. My point is that the current generation isn't likely to have immediate fond childhood memories of Star Wars outside the cartoons. Basically we're reaching a point where introducing your kid to "the good star wars" is the equivalent of this. I mean, how wildly successful was the 3D version of The Phantom Menace? BravestOfTheLamps posted:The movie repeats them, actually. If there's nothing new, it's just pointless repetition. Not sure what to say; if you're unwilling to praise a movie for its drama because other movies also had drama then you're excluding a lot of films. There's plenty of unique beats in this film that have captured peoples' imagination and surprised old viewers, no matter how much you insist that it has not. quote:Setting aside the utter nonsense of "nobody under 40", this is nothing intrinsic to the movie itself. It's just hollow "more Star Wars" nonsense. What are the fans integrated to? The fandom? Why do they need to be integrated to the fandom? It's intrinsic to the film in that the film was good and worthy of catching their attention. They don't need to be Star Wars fans, but I believe that it's good to have new Star Wars fans because there's plenty of great material in all the Star Wars films to read from.
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Apr 28, 2016 18:26
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Would you buy a MGS5: Phantom Pain clone where you play as Kylo Ren's body double as he builds a series of outposts and sows terror in the newly conquered New Republic territory?
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Apr 28, 2016 18:32
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:In other words, the question is simply bypassed. Like TPM and ANH, TFA introduces interesting elements that will likely be developed in future films. The question of "why are droids treated better?" can be guessed with "because two droids acting of their own volition were integral to defeating the Empire", but it can go any other direction, and it will be interesting seeing its explanation and development in future films. quote:Trying to define them as essentially good or evil is completely irrelevant. Action and choices are what matter. You insist that the Jedi are not good, even evil for their inaction. For what reason are you unwilling to place this judgement on the rest of the universe? quote:The Jedi accept clone troopers, who shoot them in the back. They choose wrong. This is pretty unambiguous. It's not even a matter of blind indoctrination, it was a conscious choice to accept the industrial exploitation that the Empire embodies. The Jedi chose to enforce peace, but the peace was simply the path to the Empire. The idea that history is simply a progress towards perfection is false. The jedi accept clone troopers and even befriend them in defense of the Republic. There's more than one way to interpret the clones beyond Exploitation. Getting involved in the war harmed the Jedi, but the war was inevitable so long as the Federation intended to produce a massive army to fight the Republic. Refusing to allow the Republic to militarize would have meant that slavers would be able to carve out a permanent niche in the universe to themselves. quote:TFA is a decent movie. It's a very good addition to Star Wars, adds additional depth to the previous films, and introduces interesting imagery and metaphors relevant to today. Unless you plan on continuing to argue that J J Abrams is not one to direct films tackling modern day events and issues,. which would be pretty silly.
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Apr 28, 2016 18:36
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Since we're on the subject, I would be curious to hear specifically whether people in the thread can remember what they knew of Star Wars from before they first saw it. I think it's a good bet that for a significant chunk of American children Star Wars is a presence from before they are verbal, and certainly from before the nuances of the narrative are at all understandable. Like, 'darth vader' and 'luke skywalker' were elemental presences in the cosmology of preschool makebelieve probably a year or two in advance of when I first saw ANH (on a media cart VHS in my dad's university office out sick from school, I remember it vividly). Seeing the OT for the first time, for me, was as much matching up hazy hagiography with its source document as encountering something new, and from seeing this basic narrative reoccur among the internet Star Wars commentariat (those that weren't around in '77 at least) I don't think I'm alone. I can't think of any other popular media franchise that loomed quite as large--Star Wars was Important the same way Santa was Important in my little kid brain--and definitely no other franchises that would continue to be somehow relevant and engaging past childhood. All of which is to say, I think that weight of early childhood significance has explanatory power for why so many people react so absurdly viscerally about the prequels and about thematic readings of the films. We're being asked to totally reorient ourselves with regard to the franchise from childhood mythology to critical viewing and that is a gear-crunching, axle-wrenching shift to ask your brain to make. See the difficulty people itt have with engaging the films as films: there's so much built-up emotion and sense-memory and childhood association and EU/fandom cruft and community participation and production knowledge that sweeping it all aside to examine the bare audio and video only is much more difficult than for a random film off the street. I also can't think of any other franchise that spans that gap in quite the same way--not many people continue to seriously engage with the animated Disney canon across the line where critical thought becomes decorous. e: look at how Lucas specifically gets treated by prequel detractors. There's no room in that childhood figuration of light side vs dark side, luke vs vader for an authorial POV; yr brain at that age literally has not yet developed the capability to empathize with others, and is definitely not up to the task of figuring out what an author might be trying to convey by being selective with what is depicted and how. Children under a certain age literally can't conceive of the camera as anything other than an objective documentarian and it seems a lot of people get stuck in that attitude w/r/t Star Wars! HookedOnChthonics fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Apr 28, 2016 |
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Apr 28, 2016 18:46
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In the 80s you were inundated by toys and merchandise.
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Apr 28, 2016 18:48
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I'm pretty sure I saw ESB in pre-school.
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Apr 28, 2016 19:03
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I'll freely admit this theory is mostly founded on work experience hanging out with nerdy kids in the k-8th grade range for whom the prequels/clone cartoon was never not a part of the SW mythology. It's what brought me personally around on the prequels: granted I never super cared or made it a part of my identity to hate them, but I was full on-board with Plinkett being the last word that needed to be said on the subject. Then I saw how utterly little (most) kids cared to differentiate, saw the PT again kind of by happenstance, and realized that PT and OT are much more consistent than they are different in both quality and content  E: here's a really good series of articles that were posted much, much earlier in the thread where a critic shows his two young sons the movies in machete order for the first time. I think these are fantastic and worth reading if only as a pretty great reminder of what childhood excitement felt like, haha. But they're interesting because for these two kids every beat lands; every reveal is a shocking surprise that illuminates something new about both Star Wars and the real world, because at that age Star Wars is the real world (in terms of emotional validity and verisimilitude): Drew McWeeny posted:
Kids don't partition Star Wars off into a little box marked "commercial property helmed by hackfraud to generate toy sales; worthless." They read the interactions between characters, ideas expressed, etc. and take that in as evidence of how the real world works, how people really act, because it doesn't really occur to them that Star Wars (or any other movie) could be false or in error in its depiction of people. And the evidence seems to suggest that Star Wars, prequels inclusive, live up to that remit. double e: this quote actually most perfectly encapsulates how I feel about star wars: Drew McWeeny posted:And what did they make of Jar Jar Binks? The most notorious character in the entire saga was accepted pretty much wholesale by the boys. "Daddy, the lizard-fish talks like he's crazy!" was Allen's observation after his first scene. But while fandom seemed to hit a brick wall with Jar Jar that they've never recovered from, he was just one more thing in a parade of things the boys were trying to absorb and understand, and they didn't mind him at all. Star Wars is all just undifferentiated dumb poo poo but the subset of dumb poo poo that existed before you developed a dumb-poo poo filter gets grandfathered into your consciousness as unimpeachably not dumb. Also for anyone still wondering why putting Hayden Christiansen in the end of Jedi is indisputably a good change, this is why: Drew McWeeny posted:Whatever they expected Luke to do, it wasn't the moment at the base of the landing ramp, finally removing Vader's mask and helmet. And while I'd held myself together emotionally up to that point, it wasn't something they said that finally set me off. Instead, it was when Vader's helmet came off and he and Luke were finally face to face. Allen reached up, looking at the movie, and touched my face, like he was reassuring himself that it was still me. That one gesture broke me. HookedOnChthonics fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Apr 28, 2016 |
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Apr 28, 2016 19:12
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I remember when I watched A New Hope my dad mentioned that Darth Vader was Luke's father and I was like "whaT?????" and he was like, "duh how do u not know that"
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Apr 28, 2016 19:12
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Just gonna throw down some visual artillery here. Again there's the obvious master and apprentice visual link being made Younglings - Yoda - Obi-Wan. Visualise this example as a twig the central point is Yoda and branching from him are these two apprentices. Three spheres connected by three lines, but no physical crossing line between adult and child [note: the pod racers from TPM where the line is illustrated as energy (spirit)]. The children being taught to blindly defend themselves against spheres [note : further relationships with spheres and voids, outside thought within a multitude and so on]. Then the adult apprentice(Master - Anakin) trying to find a system[note: blindly ending up at the planet where clones are made] the Jedi have no record of.    Again everything is coming back to “It’s brilliant what they do. When they mutilate a body like that, they make people think they must have been involved, they must have deserved such a death because they did something. Oh, it’s brilliant what they do.” in relation to nihilism, pragmatism or love(!???) [note: love as violence and intrusion of this violent thought] in the face of this. edit: More directly - in symbolic visual language - is this illustration of a pod racer in relation to the child(child as master as adult) not a depiction of the virgin birth[note : Abstract symbol of the uterus(born - re-born - born again)] as love filling the gap? Further note: The images of decapitation in Clones relating to droids and Jango. The droids (violently) switch heads and one speaks with the others voice one acts as the other acts. Where Jango, Father of the clones has his head cut off by the Jedi Obi-Wan. Republic and Separatist, the image of a Hydra cutting off one of its own heads and believing the monster to be dead. Removal of one sphere from a venn diagram - The Jedi Order. brawleh fucked around with this message at 02:18 on Apr 29, 2016 |
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Apr 28, 2016 19:17
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Speaking of Dredd, as Brawleh did on the previous page, the Justice Department (in the comics, certainly) like the Jedi recruits kids at the age of five, forcibly if they have certain special powers, and trains them in combat and law enforcement while keeping them separate from the very people they're supposed to protect, to the point that any kind of relationship is grounds for expulsion. The difference between the Judges and the Jedi is that one group are brutal and unaccountable authoritarian warriors imposing their law by force at the point of a special weapon unusable by outsiders over a democratic but basically powerless civilian society, while the other... oh.
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Apr 28, 2016 19:23
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Neurolimal, what exactly drives you chop posts into hideous messes? If you'd stop to think before posting to make a singular argument, you wouldn't need to make awkward, confused arguments in ugly double and triple posts. Neurolimal posted:Not sure what to say; if you're unwilling to praise a movie for its drama because other movies also had drama then you're excluding a lot of films. There's plenty of unique beats in this film that have captured peoples' imagination and surprised old viewers, no matter how much you insist that it has not. Neurolimal posted:It's a very good addition to Star Wars, adds additional depth to the previous films, and introduces interesting imagery and metaphors relevant to today. Unless you plan on continuing to argue that J J Abrams is not one to direct films tackling modern day events and issues,. which would be pretty silly. What additional depth? TFA actively removes depth. It literally blows up the Republic so that it's not there to complicate the Resistance-First Order conflict. The Rebels-Imperial conflict was never particularly nuanced, but the story of rebellion against authority was still informed by social context. TFA's conflict is Good Army vs Bad Army. Joes vs Cobras. Social context, one of the strengths of Star Wars, is actively ignored for some pap about finding your place in the world. This is why it's hardly at all relevant to "modern day events and issues," despite being about a fascist insurgent defecting and joining a Third World scrap collector to fight his former comrades. It's just supremely lame. The OT had the appeal of romance despite its naivete. Past the competent presentation, there's little more to TFA. You have immense difficulties with basic concepts like "sequels," but bear with me here: good sequels continue a story. Star Wars isn't a serial that thrives on formula, despite the trappings, it's thrived on expanding the story. TFA doesn't bring in anything new, it simply recontextualizes old plot beats, with less excitement. Chunks of the story are not in the movie, which leads to nonsense about how the sequels will fill the holes. A movie shouldn't need sequels to make it good. It's a decent movie, but a crap sequel. Neurolimal posted:You insist that the Jedi are not good, even evil for their inaction. For what reason are you unwilling to place this judgement on the rest of the universe? Why should i pass judgement on the rest of the universe? You're talking nonsense. Also, lol at Jedi fighting "slavers". The Prequels are about the Jedi and the Republic (it continues the story of the OT by looking at them as institutions), the rest of the universe serves to tell that story. It's not a history of a real place. Accepting the clone troops shows how the Jedi's defense of the Republic is wrong: defending corruption simply secures their downfall. The Jedi were the midwives of the Empire. That's what they were defending all along. TFA regresses on this, and the Empire is once again simply a threatening force of Otherness. Logically, TFA should have been about moving beyond this conflict. If Episodes VIII and IX sequels actually manage this, it's in spite of TFA, no matter how much it "sets things up". And it's looking unlikely, because extending this ultimately pointless conflict seems to be one of the creative and financial incentives behind the Sequel Trilogy. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Apr 28, 2016 |
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Apr 28, 2016 19:29
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Neurolimal, what exactly drives you chop posts into hideous messes? If you'd stop to think before posting to make a singular argument, you wouldn't need to make awkward, confused arguments in ugly double and triple posts. It's easier to read and realize which point someone is arguing about. quote:What additional depth? TFA actively removes depth. It literally blows up the Republic so that it's not there to complicate the Resistance-First Order conflict. The Rebels-Imperial conflict was never particularly nuanced, but the story of rebellion against authority was still informed by social context. TFA's conflict is Good Army vs Bad Army. Joes vs Cobras. Nothing about the Republic returning and then being destroyed destroys any depth; the entirety of Star Wars is a cycle between Sith and Jedi rule. The republic's capital is blown up because the directors only want to focus on one enemy faction. The stark contrast between the two factions was intentional for the buildup into Episode 8; First Order is left decimated and must reflect and find their true motivation (that will likely still be antagonistic to the Jedi), while Rey is given a chance to fail to be taught by Luke. Neither ANH nor TPM display particularly grey forces either; they set up the world to tell those stories in the other episodes. quote:Social context, one of the strengths of Star Wars, is actively ignored for some pap about finding your place in the world. This is why it's hardly at all relevant to "modern day events and issues," despite being about a fascist insurgent defecting and joining a Third World scrap collector to fight his former comrades. It's just supremely lame. The OT had the appeal of romance despite its naivete. Past the competent presentation, there's little more to TFA. "finding your place in the world" is a pretty significant issue for many millenials across all races and classes. We're increasingly aware of current events across the world yet powerless to stop any of it, many without the comfort and guidance of religion, and with multiple paths for growth impeded by the mistakes, corruption, or ignorance of the prior generation. Amusingly enough, another, entirely separate poster nailed it; "TFA is unrealistic because it depicts a Millenial being offered a job." You can whinge about how you dont like that the movie focuses on a generation you either dont belong to or are unwilling to embrace, but its a pretty large stretch to imply that it's objectively inferior as a result of not focusing on starving kids in Africa. quote:You have immense difficulties with basic concepts like "sequels," but bear with me here: good sequels continue a story. Star Wars isn't a serial that thrives on formula, despite the trappings, it's thrived on expanding the story. TFA doesn't bring in anything new, it simply recontextualizes old plot beats, with less excitement. Chunks of the story are not in the movie, which leads to nonsense about how the sequels will fill the holes. A movie shouldn't need sequels to make it good. Of course it continues the story of Star Wars; the issue of Droid Rights and the metaphors to reality continue to the period where freemen are under threat of reclaimers. The primary antagonist is strained under the pressure of being the child of two universal war heroes from the prior episode. Luke fails to resurrect the Jedi as a result of his eagerness after successfully defeating the sith and his father, with undertones that he made and is making a mistake by dwelling on the Jedi's past. The universe is edging towards peace following the end of the Empire, but is harmed with the fact that you cannot pretend that the Emperor was the entirety of the Empire. Like ANH it addresses more personal topics than ESB/AOTC, while also setting up beats for the story to continue to greater places. quote:It's a decent movie, but a crap sequel. It's a great movie, and a good sequel. quote:Why should i pass judgement on the rest of the universe? You're talking nonsense. The Prequels are about the Jedi and the Republic (it continues the story of the OT by looking at them as institutions), the rest of the universe serves to tell that story. It's not a history of a real place. Accepting the clone troops shows how the Jedi's defense of the Republic is wrong: defending corruption simply secures their downfall. The Jedi were the midwives of the Empire. That's what they were defending all along. Because your implication is absurd and stumbles when applied to the rest of the universe (which in turn often depict or represent large swathes of real history and society). The Republic Jedi are a product of their time and not unique in their tolerance or apathy for slavery. This is a flaw, but it does not mean they are evil. Just like how the majority of the universe was not evil for being raised in societies that did not believe droids were sentient. quote:TFA regresses on this, and the Empire is once again simply a threatening Other. Logically, TFA should have been about moving beyond this conflict. If Episodes VIII and IX sequels actually manage this, it's in spite of TFA, no matter how much it "sets things up". And it's looking unlikely, because extending this ultimately pointless conflict seems to be one of the financial incentives behind the Sequel Trilogy. First Order is more than an Other. It's the same generation as Finn, Rey, and Poe, making the same mistakes of the prior generation. Kylo Ren most clearly depicts this; despite his history and knowledge of his grandfather he proceeds to make the same mistakes Vader made, without the knowledge that Vader realized his error upon witnessing his own New Generation succeeding where he failed. There is no such thing as a Conflict To End All Conflicts; just like Cnut with Han you are more obsessed with the safety of your imaginary friends than the telling of relevant stories. Killing a pale old man did not make the universe perfect, and its this kind of laser focus on an Evil Guy as the source of all ills is the exact same way the Jedi of the Republic compromised themselves and failed. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Apr 28, 2016 |
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Apr 28, 2016 19:56
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HookedOnChthonics posted:Since we're on the subject, I would be curious to hear specifically whether people in the thread can remember what they knew of Star Wars from before they first saw it. I saw a few scenes from Return of the Jedi first. I never saw a movie all the way through for a number of years, but I remember the first scene that stuck out was Jabba the Hutt's palace. I asked dad why the fat worm guy fed that lady to the big monster. Then I remember the Sarlacc Pit, the speeder bikes, Yoda dying, and the Ewoks. Eventually I saw the Hoth scene from Empire and stopped by to see Cloud City and stopped by again to see the ending with Luke's robot hand, and C-3PO, Luke, and Leia set against the galaxy which interested me. I asked for a Star Wars toy that was like a playset for Yoda's swamp and I couldn't remember seeing the X-Wing part or the snake monster eating the tiny blue robot. At one point I was old enough to choose to watch films on my own and watched the entirety of the trilogy and was blown away. It inspired me to write my own sci-fi universe...which I didn't realize until much later was a copy-paste of A New Hope set on earth. I devoured all the illustrated guides in the school library (though I rarely read the words), listened to the soundtracks over and over again, and pretended our car was a TIE Fighter (while it was turned off). When the Special Editions came out (still relatively a kid at this point) we saw them like everybody else. I thought the Dewbacks were neat but pointless since they didn't do anything. I appreciated them expanding Cloud City, though again I didn't really see the point to it. But that drat musical number in Jabba the Hutt's palace was the first time I didn't like something Star Wars related. It was just so loud, obnoxious, ugly, and dumb. I could barely believe it happened and I wouldn't admit to myself that I hated it until days later. The Star Wars trilogy to me was on the same par with Labyrinth, Never Ending Story, the Dark Crystal, etc. It was a fantastical action adventure story with puppets that makes up a cornerstone of your imagination. It was the king of my favorite kid movies. Shoving in a bad CGI song during what was supposed to be that dark murky greasy slimepit that was Jabba's Palace would be like putting a funky rotoscope ragtime song for the Skeksis in the Dark Crystal. It was so out of place that it felt like sacrilege. Then the prequels happened.
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Apr 28, 2016 20:13
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I didn't grow up with the OT, and didn't even realize there were two trilogies until waaaay later. I knew Star Wars was a thing, had a Darth Vader piggy bank, but the only scene I could remember from Star Wars (having only seen The Phantom Menace and AotC at the time since RotS wasn't out yet) was, and this is the exact only thing I could remember as a kid, an establishing shot of a future city, then Yoda sitting in a hoverchair with some other weird aliens. I really wanted to like Star Wars too, but that was the only thing that I could ever recall. Eventually I upgraded to also remembering that C3PO's head gets put on a shooty droid.
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Apr 28, 2016 20:17
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the notion that tfa is explicitly about millennials and generational divide seems more a consequence of millennials being the demographic most eagerly pandered to at the moment by advertisers than a genuine reflection of the state of the world today
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Apr 28, 2016 20:22
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Homework Explainer posted:the notion that tfa is explicitly about millennials and generational divide seems more a consequence of millennials being the demographic most eagerly pandered to at the moment by advertisers than a genuine reflection of the state of the world today I think generational divide is a theme (and has been a theme of Star Wars for a while*) but like you said, back in the day it was focused around Boomers/Gen X. *Although you don't really see it until around the end of ESB continuing into ROTJ.
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Apr 28, 2016 20:30
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