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Kurieg posted:So we're told there are good heroes but see zero of them. Just like we've told beasts are good but see nothing of it. The books idea's of good Heroes are ones who help and enable Beasts, instead of trying to stop them. Also while Heroes seem like villians and insane for ranting about Beast conspiracies and how making homemade pipebombs to blow up the Beasts apartment building is justified, keep in mind half the time they are totally right or their delusion is still the fault of some Beast conspiracy. They are 100% right on the pipebombs always.
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Apr 28, 2016 19:32
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I think Vampires are compelling because they are pretty much intrinsically net bad for humanity, and become so no matter how hard they try to be good. You get all this great stuff as part of your standard mortality severance package but you can only persist by doing harm to other people - even minimal, controlled harm is more of a psychological trick than any sort of real moral lucidity. Vampires don't one and all wake up and think, "oh man, gonna really stick it to those pesky humans", I mean some do but it's not universal. Vampire has the intrinsic drama of emotional, functionally human creatures who are forced to become, at best, serial abusers. How they deal with that fuels pretty much every part of the vampire interaction - why some vampires burn cars and try to talk to ancients gods and why others just surround themselves with wealth and hangers-on. It's all part of the coping mechanism.
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Apr 28, 2016 19:35
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Attorney at Funk posted:It seems like Beast is now basically within parameters for how awful WoD monsters are. They just aren't very compelling at all, so instead of the tension between the allure and the evil that exists in Vampire or Mage you just have something that is both unappealing AND unpleasant. As far as I can see, they haven't actually gotten less objectionable from their first outing. Like, they're still doing the same stuff to the same people, aren't they? And there's still a laserlike focus on how they're justified in doing so both for reasons of "it's not that bad"/"they deserve it"/"really I'm doing them a favor" and "if I didn't I'd come under even worse attack".
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Apr 28, 2016 19:36
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Here's the quote, also bolded something importantquote:What, then, about the Hero that listens to reason? What about the Hero that chooses to follow her better angels, as it were, trying to soothe the Primordial Dream by providing therapy to troubled individuals, by hunting down violent or destructive supernatural creatures, or by taking on an advisory role such as clergy? Surely these Heroes exist?
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Apr 28, 2016 19:36
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If good Heroes hunt down destructive monsters, that means every Hero is gunning for the Beasts first.
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Apr 28, 2016 19:37
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Ferrinus posted:As far as I can see, they haven't actually gotten less objectionable from their first outing. Like, they're still doing the same stuff to the same people, aren't they? And there's still a laserlike focus on how they're justified in doing so both for reasons of "it's not that bad"/"they deserve it"/"really I'm doing them a favor" and "if I didn't I'd come under even worse attack". Yeah, but the fact that Beasts do violence to people for bullshit reasons was never actually the problem. The focus, though, does seem diminished, or at least more like in-character justification rather than the way that we, the players, ought to think.
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Apr 28, 2016 19:38
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I think Beast would be a lot more compelling if they just didn't seem to eager to hurt people.
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Apr 28, 2016 19:39
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Mendrian posted:I think Beast would be a lot more compelling if they just didn't seem to eager to hurt people. Contrarily, I think Beast would be much worse if they were grimly resigned to hurting people, felt like they had no choice, etc. It's not a game I want to play either way but I'd find the latter legitimately offensive rather than simply tiresome.
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Apr 28, 2016 19:42
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They'd be more compelling if their primordial hunger was for something more tangible than an audience reaction, if they summoned opposition to themselves by feeding successfully rather than failing to feed, and if they had good reason to compete with or even prey on each other. Yes, I know I have just described vampires.
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Apr 28, 2016 19:42
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Ferrinus posted:They'd be more compelling if their primordial hunger was for something more tangible than an audience reaction, if they summoned opposition to themselves by feeding successfully rather than failing to feed, and if they had good reason to compete with or even prey on each other. Yes, I know I have just described vampires. I mean, there's a reason Beast is a crossover splat. It's all goofy meta nonsense that only really coheres when it's piggybacking off of better-developed stories.
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Apr 28, 2016 19:45
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Ferrinus posted:They'd be more compelling if their primordial hunger was for something more tangible than an audience reaction, if they summoned opposition to themselves by feeding successfully rather than failing to feed, and if they had good reason to compete with or even prey on each other. Yes, I know I have just described vampires. Wait whoops still describing vampires here.
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Apr 28, 2016 19:47
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Huh, I just took a look through the book and it appears that they've removed all reference to Beasts accidentally creating Heroes. Heroes just exist now and being a bastard summons them to kill you. That's.... simultaneously better and also infinitely less compelling as a concept.
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Apr 28, 2016 19:47
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What, so now some people are just inherently murderous psychos towards Beasts?
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Apr 28, 2016 19:51
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Attorney at Funk posted:I mean, there's a reason Beast is a crossover splat. It's all goofy meta nonsense that only really coheres when it's piggybacking off of better-developed stories. Maybe they need to ditch the idea of feeding and satiety all together and do Godzilla king of the monsters stuff.
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Apr 28, 2016 19:52
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Ferrinus posted:Maybe they need to ditch the idea of feeding and satiety all together and do Godzilla king of the monsters stuff. I agree, what Cash on Delivery really needs is a splat whose core conceit is that they can beat all the other splats in a fight. Wait now I'm describing Mage. gently caress!
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Apr 28, 2016 19:54
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* I like the idea of Beasts as bastardized hybrids between Vampires and Changelings. Vampires, in the sense that they subsist on the suffering of others, with allowances for how they justify and how they feel about that. Let one Beast be Batman (or the Joker); let another one be Literally Medusa. Changelings, in the sense that they are caught in and summon up narratives everywhere they go that ensnare those around them. * I like the idea of a singular, personal antagonistic relationship with a Hero. I don't like the idea of Heroes being normal humans who are compelled to fight Beasts; instead, have Heroes be awful people (possibly worse than even Beasts) who have fallen so far that the narrative elements that control Beasts have basically taken over the Hero as a sock puppet. Have increasingly powerful Heroes throw themselves at a Beast as each one is defeated. Death by Hero is inevitable, it's just a matter of how long the Beast holds out. If a Hero kills a Beast, it assures mutual annihilation. * Make feeding more specific and less general; it's not about emotion, it's about enacting a specific narrative. Batman has to fight petty criminals, Literally Medusa has to turn people to stone, etc. Probably best to tie how awful these things are to a Beast's relative hunger level., so the longer you wait the worse it gets. Just spitballing here.
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Apr 28, 2016 19:56
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The problem with Beast, for me, isn't that they do bad things and prey on people. It's that they specifically torture and abuse people and are portrayed as the good guys for doing it. There's no sense of balance, no internal conflict, and really no external conflict. You're not fighting for or against anything. Outside of whatever your ST comes up with, Beast is just a sandbox game where you torture people to level up and I never ever want to play that. EDIT: I'm actually kind of frustrated that people keep saying "I would save Beast by doing X" because why are you trying to save Beast. There are about a million ways to make the idea worthwhile but they're all basically scrapping the game, stealing a couple of vaguely workable elements, and making something new. So just do that if you really want to but stop making it sound like a couple of house rules will fix this broken, tragic waste of time or repair the huge black mark on Onyx Path's otherwise fantastic reputation. Cool Dad fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Apr 28, 2016 |
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Apr 28, 2016 20:04
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Could someone tell me how Mages are supposed to be monsters? They always have seemed the most relatable of the CoD lines, where it's only really the villains that are inherently destructive to the world around them. The "good guys" just seem to be dudes who have magical powers and may or may not be working on making the world more/less magical because it's Humanity's birthright.
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Apr 28, 2016 20:05
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Mors Rattus posted:What, so now some people are just inherently murderous psychos towards Beasts? Like Prometheus then? blastron posted:Could someone tell me how Mages are supposed to be monsters? They always have seemed the most relatable of the CoD lines, where it's only really the villains that are inherently destructive to the world around them. The "good guys" just seem to be dudes who have magical powers and may or may not be working on making the world more/less magical because it's Humanity's birthright. Wizardsnosenseofrightorwrong.jpg
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Apr 28, 2016 20:06
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Mors Rattus posted:What, so now some people are just inherently murderous psychos towards Beasts? Wouldn't that just be the normal reaction to meeting one of those pricks?
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Apr 28, 2016 20:07
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blastron posted:Could someone tell me how Mages are supposed to be monsters? They always have seemed the most relatable of the CoD lines, where it's only really the villains that are inherently destructive to the world around them. The "good guys" just seem to be dudes who have magical powers and may or may not be working on making the world more/less magical because it's Humanity's birthright. Basically they get handed the keys to universal power, have no inherent responsibilities and rely entirely on social pressure to avoid loving up badly enough to release world-destroying Abyssal monstrosities. They aren't actively inimical by nature but 'the Wise' is definitely a sarcastic name for them.
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Apr 28, 2016 20:08
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Mors Rattus posted:What, so now some people are just inherently murderous psychos towards Beasts? All heroes are born being able to see the primordial dream. But while beasts dream "deep" down to where horrors and wisdom lie, heroes dream "broad" and can see people in need and the effect that beasts are having on it. High integrity heroes see that beasts serve a purpose and try to help teach lessons. Low integrity heroes are pissed that beasts get all the attention and want to kill them and paint their name across the primordial dream in their blood. The change is there in the December ks copy, but there's also references earlier in the book that beasts make heroes. And they're still in the final copy in the tyrant and predator blurbs.
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Apr 28, 2016 20:11
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Mors Rattus posted:Basically they get handed the keys to universal power, have no inherent responsibilities and rely entirely on social pressure to avoid loving up badly enough to release world-destroying Abyssal monstrosities. How is that different from how people in mundane power have to deal with the temptation to abuse their power, other than the scale of the consequences? Is this just a "man is the real monster" thing?
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Apr 28, 2016 20:14
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Kurieg posted:All heroes are born being able to see the primordial dream. But while beasts dream "deep" down to where horrors and wisdom lie, heroes dream "broad" and can see people in need and the effect that beasts are having on it. High Integrity Heroes need to stop being into facile justifications.
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Apr 28, 2016 20:16
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blastron posted:How is that different from how people in mundane power have to deal with the temptation to abuse their power, other than the scale of the consequences? Is this just a "man is the real monster" thing? Primarily in that Mages can also see how the world has been shattered and broken to prevent everyone from sharing in their power, and in that mages have literally touched a higher, more true reality and been forced to come back to a world designed to gently caress with them specifically.
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Apr 28, 2016 20:17
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I feel like CoD 2e has been doing more to enforce the theme that all the splats are a sort of monster, which I understand but am still kind of iffy on, especially for games like Mage and Changeling, where I was more likely to find them useful for dark urban fantasy than horror per se.
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Apr 28, 2016 20:19
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Kurieg posted:All heroes are born being able to see the primordial dream. But while beasts dream "deep" down to where horrors and wisdom lie, heroes dream "broad" and can see people in need and the effect that beasts are having on it. So wait, the Heroes are the ones who can see and feel people in need and the pain the Beasts are spreading, and they're still wrong for trying to stop them and the 'good ones' are the ones who go around enabling the abusive monster bastards. People who actually work for OPP, I'm really not sure you want to ever acknowledge Beast exists within your setting. Like, just quietly ignore it was ever there.
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Apr 28, 2016 20:23
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Mors Rattus posted:High Integrity Heroes need to stop being into facile justifications. It's also so much less compelling, and removes the one thing that I liked (and hated) about Beasts. The idea that if you don't keep your hunger in check it might seek out someone close to you and turn them into your worst enemy was exactly the right kind of thing you'd expect in a game about personal horror. Now it just gives them a really bad nightmare, fucks up their willpower for a while, and summons one of an infinite amount of faceless MRA Stereotypes who hate you. Also I really hate the moralizing of "Well if they were more self assured they'd realize that Beasts are good therefore all of these guys are just idiots  " Integrity isn't humanity. You can have high integrity psychopaths who are really sure of themselves and have a completely bizzare moral code. You can have good people who have weak integrity. Why isn't there a single Hero who hates what he does but realizes it's necessary because Beasts are extremely hosed up?Night10194 posted:So wait, the Heroes are the ones who can see and feel people in need and the pain the Beasts are spreading, and they're still wrong for trying to stop them and the 'good ones' are the ones who go around enabling the abusive monster bastards. They're trying to stop them for the wrong reasons and therefore are terrible and deserve to die.
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Apr 28, 2016 20:27
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Ferrinus posted:Maybe they need to ditch the idea of feeding and satiety all together and do Godzilla king of the monsters stuff. Is there a hunger for being the King of Monsters and feeding by defending your title against all comers?
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Apr 28, 2016 20:30
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MonsieurChoc posted:Is there a hunger for being the King of Monsters and feeding by defending your title against all comers? Sort of? Tyrants feed by proving that they're better than you. But there's also a completely unrelated thing called the Apex. The local fabric of the Primordial Dream is affected by the dreamers in the area. And all of the beasts in an area are loosely joined together in a "hive". The biggest baddest monster on the block is the Apex of the hive, and they have some influence over how the local hive operates and what traits are applied to it. The Apex doesn't have to be a Beast, they just have to have had a profound effect on the local Dream. Of course the easiest way to become the Apex is to be a mass murdering serial killer, which also attracts Heroes, so it's a common trait in a beast game to play "Kill the Apex" over and over again.
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Apr 28, 2016 20:35
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The only World/Chronicles of Darkness book with my name in the credits is Beast.  They put a comma between my first and last name.
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Apr 28, 2016 20:37
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I already can't play Vampire. My brain helpfully conjures up "they're the date rape splat!" and I can't make it past that. I really really can't see myself playing Beast. JohnnyCanuck fucked around with this message at 01:34 on Apr 29, 2016 |
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Apr 28, 2016 20:52
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Gilok posted:The only World/Chronicles of Darkness book with my name in the credits is Beast. If it's any consolation, the book with my name in the credits has my last name misspelled and a family member with the same last name spelled correctly immediately after that. PantsOptional fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Apr 28, 2016 |
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Apr 28, 2016 20:55
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I put my character's name in Dark Eras but I haven't checked to see if they misspelled it yet.
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Apr 28, 2016 21:01
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Gilok posted:The only World/Chronicles of Darkness book with my name in the credits is Beast. Funniest thing I've seen with Kickstarter credits on a book is Exalted 3e, where after I put in on the survey that I didn't want my name listed in the book (due to the issues around it) I found in the backer index of the PDF "I don't want my name listed".
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Apr 28, 2016 21:02
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Attorney at Funk posted:It seems like Beast is now basically within parameters for how awful WoD monsters are. They just aren't very compelling at all, so instead of the tension between the allure and the evil that exists in Vampire or Mage you just have something that is both unappealing AND unpleasant. In addition to stuff other people said Mages are kinda net good, aren't they? They have the temptation to be absolute shits being that they're superpowered people with very little oversight, but they're also living incarnations of the higher world everyone's been denied.
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Apr 28, 2016 21:43
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spectralent posted:In addition to stuff other people said Mages are kinda net good, aren't they? They have the temptation to be absolute shits being that they're superpowered people with very little oversight, but they're also living incarnations of the higher world everyone's been denied. That's certainly what mages would like to think, but it's not like the world is, presently, better for their presence. The amount of good magic can do in the phenomenal world is smaller than the amount of harm it can do. What mages have near-uniquely is the ability to be net neutral. A mage could just, not do any magic and be functionally indistinguishable from a mortal, which isn't true of vampires or werewolves or demons or prometheans or even changelings
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Apr 28, 2016 21:56
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Attorney at Funk posted:That's certainly what mages would like to think, but it's not like the world is, presently, better for their presence. The amount of good magic can do in the phenomenal world is smaller than the amount of harm it can do. What mages have near-uniquely is the ability to be net neutral. A mage could just, not do any magic and be functionally indistinguishable from a mortal, which isn't true of vampires or werewolves or demons or prometheans or even changelings This might not be true in 2E if some hints about your magic casting itself if you go too long without casting it were literal enough.
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Apr 29, 2016 00:42
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spectralent posted:In addition to stuff other people said Mages are kinda net good, aren't they? They have the temptation to be absolute shits being that they're superpowered people with very little oversight, but they're also living incarnations of the higher world everyone's been denied. I mean that's what mages say, but they're the ones reworking reality to their whim in a bid for ever more power so I never took them saying it very seriously. In my games at least it's pretty much always good intentions ---> mild amounts of progress ----> hubris, bitches o gently caress everything is terrible. But maybe I suck and am dumb. Shee-it I haven't played Mage in forever. I need to run some Mage.
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Apr 29, 2016 01:18
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Mage is nice in that it's a little bit more flexible about what kind of story you want to tell. It can be horror. It can be about mad necromancers raising undead creatures, Lovecraftian cosmic horror, the personal horror of Hubris and it's ramifications, etc. But it can also be scaled back to urban fantasy or action-adventure if you don't want to focus on those aspects. Which isn't to say that other CoD games can't, but Mage's themes and mechanics are a little more friendly to non-horror gameplay than most of the other games.
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Apr 29, 2016 01:23
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