|
BMB5150 posted:You loving monster.  Delta Force intros, best intros.
|
#
?
May 1, 2016 16:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 04:32 |
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeBr1WqaxMk
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2016 16:39
|
|
|
SFH1989 posted:Yes, my friends and I all had our tickets already. Luckily I was a lazy rear end in a top hat about paying my friend for them, but hey hey now he doesn't have to send me money electronically in about 2 seconds because it's loving 2016 for god's sake people. Is what I presume you were trying to write.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2016 22:10
|
|
|
I don't think anybody is going to notice or care but Saavedra's seat fell through.
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2016 20:34
|
|
|
Confirmed, I definitely don't care. I never cared for him at all and I imagine I'm not alone.
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2016 20:55
|
|
|
I assume he lowballed the offer in an attempt to Saavedra some money.
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2016 21:29
|
|
|
There's something I've been kinda thinking over the past couple of months. Would there ever be a way to capture the pre-1995 spirit of "Bump Day", and the amount of entries the "500" would bring as an event? I mean in '95 for example you had 45 cars trying to make the 33 car grid, and you had an interesting mix of series regulars, sports car guys, failed f1 drivers, and a handful of dirt track drivers trying to make the show (Davey Hamilton, Johnny Parsons Jr., Stan Fox). I don't know...there's something awesomely romantic about the concept of that happening again. I'm not quite sure it can happen in the near future unless the "500" was treated almost as a separate "special" event with relaxed rules in order to attract more entrants.
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2016 22:14
|
|
|
$$$
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2016 22:31
|
|
|
It's money, but it goes deep because of it. You could have big entry counts up through 1995 for two reasons. One, there was a lot more money going around the sport as a whole, so the big teams had big budgets for the newest and greatest equipment. Two, because every year meant new cars and new engines, there was no shortage of "uncompetitive" older chassis and engines that were still rules-compliant, which could be purchased on a smaller budget. Now, even the big teams are operating on limited funds, and the series is a spec series where the year-to-year variation is both minimized and defined by the rules. In 1995, a 1991-era car was still legal but would've been cheap because it is "slow" and "old". In 2016, the bulk of the car is exactly the same as it was in 2012, so an original DW12 tub value hasn't really dropped much. And since Dallara is the only manufacturer building cars for the whole series, they aren't in a position where they can suddenly throw together five or ten extra DW12s that will not run either outside of the 500 or until one of the ~22 regular cars gets damaged beyond a raceable repair. The only parts of the car that has changed since the original DW12 are parts that you are also required to buy. You can't find a 2012-spec DW12 sitting in someone's storage and race it as-is; you are required to bring it to 2016 spec, and again, those parts are expensive and supplier constrained. Then you can take all of this and pretty much apply it across the board to the engine situation. The only possible exception is I don't think there's any rule specifically prohibiting you from running a 2012-spec Chevy (a 2012-spec Honda would be out on account of the single turbo) but at a track like Indy where horsepower is vital, you're going to have a hard time getting sponsors to buy in on a four-year-old engine that's down on power. Entry counts were still decent in 2010/2011 because Dallara had built so goddamn many IR03/IR05 cars already, and development had been completely halted on the car and the Honda, so there was no shortage of current cars available.
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2016 23:24
|
|
|
most motorsport has gotten so expensive that you simply can't justify funding a team if there's not a near-guaranteed chance of being in the race. i don't see that changing any time soon.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2016 00:00
|
|
|
Then stack on top of it the likelihood of a poor result from a team that was just thrown together last second. Aside from the possibility of just not making the race, I don't think anyone wants to whiff it as badly as Lazier did last year.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2016 00:05
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3sWR9BmA_I Posting this because I can.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2016 01:52
|
|
|
Opperman loving ruled
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2016 05:44
|
|
|
IOwnCalculus posted:Then stack on top of it the likelihood of a poor result from a team that was just thrown together last second. Aside from the possibility of just not making the race, I don't think anyone wants to whiff it as badly as Lazier did last year. I don't know...it's a tad bit of a shame because we no longer have that romanticism that went along with smaller teams making the show or some unknown driver making a name for himself with the Hemelgarn's Dick Simon's and Curb Racing's of the world via making the field. Then again the risk would come in the form of the racing taking quite the hit and we'd be left with a lot of lapper races won by the likes of (let's face it) Penske. Versus now where you indeed have the likes of Dale Coyne and Sam Schmidt competing for wins. Hell, BHA has a win to their credit do them running Wheldon in 11. There's just got to be a way to keep some sort balance in that manner. I still wonder if adding more chassis to the series (Panoz, Swift) and a couple of more manufacturers could help with the costs. But then again? You risk quite a bit doing that
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2016 07:42
|
|
|
Would it be any different than the current aero kit debacle? Any variation of the spec formula will inevitably result in Builder X having the edge over Builder Y. As long as costs are kept down, I think it would be fine, but as motorsports continuously shows, that's largely a pipe dream. A big issue is that, as others have pointed out, motorsports are now inherently extremely expensive, and haven't "scaled" cost wise as the years went on, per se. AJ Watson built his cars more or less out of his garage, Roger Rager built up an engine from a school bus. Now Dallara has millions invested and a dedicated facility, and the engines are sealed up and come with a six figure price tag. Just the way it is now.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2016 17:12
|
|
|
If they seriously wanted to cut costs they'd go straight for the engines. You can make the same power, reliably, for far less than what they cost now. If you want to be a high tech series, you lose your right to talk about costs IMO. e- also in 1955 an Indycar was the most expensive racing car in the US, so nothing has changed really
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2016 17:16
|
|
|
That may have been true, but would we see the same amount of money invested if we adjusted for inflation? You said a while ago that even sprint car drivers these days are pretty well off generally, was that the case way back when?
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2016 17:28
|
|
|
VikingSkull posted:If they seriously wanted to cut costs they'd go straight for the engines. You can make the same power, reliably, for far less than what they cost now. As much as I hated the original IRL 4.0 / 3.5L engines, this is the loving truth. I find it hard to believe that Mazda's ~570hp GT engine costs anywhere near what a Indycar 2.2L V6 does, and the cost/HP only goes down from there. You've got 600hp+ engines with warranties and emissions controls from GM, FCA, Ford, VAG, Mercedes-Benz, and Nissan. Granted, most of those are going to be a good deal larger and heavier than the current engine, and none of them are used as a stressed member of the chassis. But it seems like if you want some combination of technical variation and cost control, you could set up some rules like this: *Engine block and head must be production castings *Draw out a "box" that the engine must fit inside of *Minimum weight for the entire engine package *Spec, series-provided ECU *Maximum redline of 10,000 RPM *Engine may make a maximum of X peak horsepower in road course trim, Y peak horsepower in oval trim, dyno-verified and random tests throughout the year across the board *Non-stressed design, some form of cradle *No hybrid solution (yet?) Leave everything else open. If one manufacturer needs to run more boost to hit the power target than the other, so what? Seems like you'd get some variations here in terms of weight distribution, power curves, and fuel consumption, not to mention audibly different cars and the ability for people to build their own engines again. Add to this that the overall size / shape of the engine cowling and chassis needs to encompass the entire box so you don't see someone running a boxer getting a massive aero advantage over someone running an inline four. I find it hard to believe that a reasonably skilled engine builder couldn't keep a team supplied with ~700hp engines that they actually own for significantly less than the cost of a single engine lease. Joe Sixpack can piss his kids' college funds into a goddamn 707hp Hellcat for well under $100k and it comes with a car attached!
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2016 17:36
|
|
|
It'd probably be cheaper if teams just bit the bullet and accepted that they can't use the engine as a stressed member anymore and there was a move towards 4 cylinder turbos derived from production models. Manufacturers would be more interested since their road car engine technically and more likely to subsidize their supply as a result.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2016 17:51
|
|
|
George Zimmer posted:That may have been true, but would we see the same amount of money invested if we adjusted for inflation? You said a while ago that even sprint car drivers these days are pretty well off generally, was that the case way back when? Racing has always been expensive, it's just that when you look at the progression of haulers, and shops and stuff like that it looks like they were racing in poverty. Why build a clean rear end shop and have a huge truck if no one else does? Soon as the first guy did it, BANG, everyone did it. The first double stack trailers for modifieds showed up in the early 80's, and haven't left despite purses for those cars staying stagnant. A street stock guy can bitch about costs, it's his hobby. A guy who gets paid to race? A team that works full time just on prepping and crewing a race car? A million guys working in Mavis would trade with you right this minute. e- an Oswego Supermod costs upwards of $100,000 and that's literally the only track in the world that style of car races regularly.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2016 18:03
|
|
|
That's a good point, there's a whole lot more "stuff" now.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2016 18:08
|
|
|
George Zimmer posted:That's a good point, there's a whole lot more "stuff" now. .... and most of it is superfluous. I don't think drivers need a million dollar RV, a guy like Brett Hearn doesn't need to show up at OCFS with two double stacks and 6 cars, but poo poo like that happens. Once they do it, the next guy has to have it, and the next, and the next. Soon everyone has it because they think they need it, and here we are, rich guys talking about how their hobby is expensive.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2016 18:11
|
|
|
look at the loving extravagant mobile headquarters F1 teams drag around the world
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2016 18:19
|
|
|
My buddy's dad was a relatively well known late model driver in the 70's that made his own cars. Dude was a mechanic, and on the lower end of being middle class. Times have changed. And yeah the F1 haulers are absurd. Get rid of those, the in house chefs, masseuses, whatever the gently caress else.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2016 18:28
|
|
|
Nobody took pit stops seriously until the Wood Brothers, and now everyone has ex-NFL players making high 5 to low 6 figures to toss tires around.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2016 18:28
|
|
|
George Zimmer posted:My buddy's dad was a relatively well known late model driver in the 70's that made his own cars. Dude was a mechanic, and on the lower end of being middle class. Times have changed. Yeah the time where if you had a bit of driving skill and technical knowledge you could punch above your weight is over for pretty much every category other than some club level racing. Even down there you're at a significant disadvantage if you're not willing to fork out megabux.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2016 18:35
|
|
|
Even the guys back in the day who built and drove their cars themselves were spending money hand over fist, and they didn't know it. Dudes time isn't worthless, so if he's spending 40 hours a week in the shop after work building his car he's still spending money. I'm sure if he sold his cars he didn't sell them for cost minus depreciation, he sold them for parts+labor minus depreciation.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2016 18:41
|
|
|
VikingSkull posted:A street stock guy can bitch about costs, it's his hobby. A guy who gets paid to race? A team that works full time just on prepping and crewing a race car? A million guys working in Mavis would trade with you right this minute. The problem is that the guys who can do that at the level required for top-tier racing are skilled enough to do similar types of work in other industries for solid pay. As much as those million guys would love to jump in and even do nothing more than turn some wrenches on an Indycar, I'm betting most of them still need to pay the bills. And while some of it is certainly extravagance, or at least not truly necessary for the bare operation of running a race car, teams do need to entertain their sponsors and sponsors' guests. When one team has a large enough budget to afford to pay some truly gifted engineers to come up with god-tier shock absorbers, and have those guys on hand with a fully stocked shop for every race weekend, it is going to put the rest of the teams at a disadvantage. The only true cost-control comes when you have nobody racing in an event that is willing to outspend the others just to win, even if it's just for incremental or possibly imaginary advantages. Doesn't matter if you're talking F1, Indycar, dirt tracks, or R/C cars.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2016 18:45
|
|
|
I'm sure that they have valid concerns internally, I'm just pointing out that most fans 1. can't relate to those problems and 2. don't give a gently caress
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2016 18:50
|
|
|
VikingSkull posted:Nobody took pit stops seriously until the Wood Brothers, and now everyone has ex-NFL players making high 5 to low 6 figures to toss tires around. there seemed to be another jump in like, the 90s when Penske Racing came in and suddenly everyone was freaking the gently caress out at 16 second pit stops
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2016 18:51
|
|
|
Alain Post posted:there seemed to be another jump in like, the 90s when Penske Racing came in and suddenly everyone was freaking the gently caress out at 16 second pit stops the Wood Brothers technique was to take guys in the shop and dedicate training time to them, but they weren't pros it took another 30 years for Penske and Hendrick to sign the first dedicated crew members you're talking maybe half a mil a year to field a pro crew that's worth maybe 2 seconds a race, at best.... now I know that's everything in today's sport, just illustrating how crazy costs are for return on investment
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2016 18:54
|
|
|
VikingSkull posted:Even the guys back in the day who built and drove their cars themselves were spending money hand over fist, and they didn't know it. Dudes time isn't worthless, so if he's spending 40 hours a week in the shop after work building his car he's still spending money. I'm sure if he sold his cars he didn't sell them for cost minus depreciation, he sold them for parts+labor minus depreciation. Yeah I'm not saying that there was a free ride back in "the day", if you didn't have the cash you were busting your rear end 24/7 when you probably could've been making a decent living and have free time doing anything else. The issue is that now even if you wanted to devote all your time trying to make it to the grid of a top category there's zero chance of that happening, and on the off chance you do you're only ever going to finish last.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2016 18:55
|
|
|
VikingSkull posted:the Wood Brothers technique was to take guys in the shop and dedicate training time to them, but they weren't pros man I know it sounds crazy but half a million for two seconds is peanuts, anyone would pay that
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2016 19:00
|
|
|
1500quidporsche posted:Yeah I'm not saying that there was a free ride back in "the day", if you didn't have the cash you were busting your rear end 24/7 when you probably could've been making a decent living and have free time doing anything else. The issue is that now even if you wanted to devote all your time trying to make it to the grid of a top category there's zero chance of that happening, and on the off chance you do you're only ever going to finish last. The local hero at OCFS started with zilch and twenty years later he's a top chassis builder and multiple time track champ. It can still be done. be nice wicka posted:man I know it sounds crazy but half a million for two seconds is peanuts, anyone would pay that yeah, I know lol
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2016 19:05
|
|
|
Alain Post posted:there seemed to be another jump in like, the 90s when Penske Racing came in and suddenly everyone was freaking the gently caress out at 16 second pit stops Everybody aside from Penske was bad at pitstops until well into the 90s it seems. Even Newman-Haas and Galles hosed up regularly in the races I've been watching.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2016 19:07
|
|
|
Human Grand Prix posted:Everybody aside from Penske was bad at pitstops until well into the 90s it seems. Even Newman-Haas and Galles hosed up regularly in the races I've been watching. oh I was talking about Winston Cup
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2016 19:15
|
|
|
Ah.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2016 19:16
|
|
|
this is before you even get into how much money they spend on computational power now
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2016 19:26
|
|
|
VikingSkull posted:yeah, I know lol i'll never forget mclaren bragging in 2008 about how they spent £3m developing a new front wing just for brazil to ensure they'd win the title. then of course it rained, and wouldn't you know it, mclaren had poo poo front downforce.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2016 19:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 04:32 |
|
|
Going back to Fuzzy's original concern, I just don't think Bump Day will ever really be a thing again. You just can't lay down millions on a one time thing, and you definitely can't lay it down on a maybe. Retool the regs and find a way to keep the costs down and maybe the 33 will just come naturally.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2016 19:43
|
|