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Waffles Inc. posted:I don't mean this in a dumb like, Philosophy 101 kind of way--what I'm getting at is why does blowing up Alderaan get used as (the only) demonstrable evidence of the Empire being evil and Luke doing the same thing on a smaller scale get a pass? Alderaan was a peaceful world with no weapons, while the Death Star was a battlestation staffed with soldiers. Soldiers killing soldiers is a permissible evil while soldiers killing civilians is not.
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May 5, 2016 16:41
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MrMojok posted:That's where SMG's stuff gets really interesting IMHO. He says that all the force powers are nothing of the sort, just illusion, confusion on the part of witnesses, and reality "getting malleable!" Sort-of, because - when Lucas introduces the midichlorian twist - it's revealed that Jedis are actually just X-Men mutants. The paradox is that objective proof of the existence of magic ruined things for many fans. They wanted it to remain an illusion. But some illusions remain: see Yoda fading from existence, the appearance of 'ghosts'. Those things aren't telekinesis. Obviously scientific pedantry isn't the point. The point is what's expressed about the nature of free will, what constitutes an authentic miracle, and so-on. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 16:46 on May 5, 2016 |
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May 5, 2016 16:43
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Schwarzwald posted:Alderaan was a peaceful world with no weapons, while the Death Star was a battlestation staffed with soldiers. The Death Star was entirely soldiers? And Leia was telling the truth that Alderaan had no weapons? In literally the same scene she lied about where the Rebel base actually was. All I'm getting at with this subject is that the Alliance isn't necessarily squeaky clean--and taking into account the prequels and TFA, the idea of the Rebels not being entirely good is textual. The prequels and TFA changed the context of the conflict in the OT by changing it from one of Freedom v. Oppression to one of Progress (Empire) v. Regression (Rebels); both fighting for an idealized concept of how they think the galaxy should be governed. It's one of the only interesting things about TFA is that if follows the trend, but this time asking us to root for the establishment (Republic) against the Rebels (First Order). The Republic became the Empire which became the Republic again. Saying that OT Empire is demonstrably evil and the OT Rebels demonstrably good just doesn't fit into the framework the series has created
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May 5, 2016 16:59
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The Force is real in the sense that it's virtual. It's an expression of social organization.
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May 5, 2016 17:01
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Waffles Inc. posted:The Death Star was entirely soldiers? And Leia was telling the truth that Alderaan had no weapons? In literally the same scene she lied about where the Rebel base actually was. While the Death Star likely contained nonsoldiers (such as other prisoners), it was still a military target, while Alderaan was demonstrably defenseless. Don't take this the wrong way, you are right to have reservations. The Rebels are certainly not unquestionably good, and are only demonstrably good in that they oppose the Empire. However, the alternative to destroying the Death Star is not destroying the Death Star, and continuing to permit the mass slaughter of civilians.
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May 5, 2016 17:17
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Schwarzwald posted:While the Death Star likely contained nonsoldiers (such as other prisoners), it was still a military target, while Alderaan was demonstrably defenseless. No doubt; I agree with you in large extent. I really think that they only really intended to blow up Alderaan to "send a message"--and Yavin 4 was likewise a military target. If they had blown up Yavin they likely would've won the war and then only really threatened to use the DS. Kinda like post-WW2 USA foreign policy
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May 5, 2016 17:19
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Waffles Inc. posted:No doubt; I agree with you in large extent. I really think that they only really intended to blow up Alderaan to "send a message"--and Yavin 4 was likewise a military target. If they had blown up Yavin they likely would've won the war and then only really threatened to use the DS. Kinda like post-WW2 USA foreign policy I think kowtowing to the Empire in hopes that they won't feel the need to send any more messages is ultimately a losing proposition. Ironically, this is all the more true because the Empire has shown a willingness to use it on civilian populations. By actually using the weapon, the Empire sabotaged its efforts to establish a cold war scenario. Instead of letting the fear of the Death Star discourage the Rebellion from fighting openly, by making it an active threat they forced the Rebels to confront it head on. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 17:40 on May 5, 2016 |
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May 5, 2016 17:35
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Leia's troops have guns and fired on Imperial troops, after her ship fled an Imperial Star Destroyer. ("We have no weapons!" she says, after shooting stormtroopers with her own weapon) Stormtroopers are shown casually talking about the new T-16; they are not mindless automata. The Rebels and the Empire are differentiated by their firepower, uniforms, and ideology, but they definitely did destroy each other's planets.
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May 5, 2016 17:45
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"This character is untrustworthy" does not immediately translate to "the opposite of everything they say is true". The Death Star is a military target that is designed to destroy planets that are not threats to it. That its operation requires human shields does not put the Republic in the wrong for destroying it. The Empire Strikes Back establishes similarities between Rebels and the Empire, but it also makes the distinction in how both use said similarities; compare the Hoth Cannon to the Death Star, for instance.
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May 5, 2016 17:50
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Man why did the rebel armsmen shoot at the skeletor shock troopers that just breaching charged into their ship followed by entering in while firing blindly into a diplomatic envoys ship corridor...after firing on them with giant laser cannons & using a tractor beam to detain a ship against their wishes due to possible thought crimes. I'm glad the thread has reached the point of unironically agreeing with the gop that the empire did nothing wrong
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May 5, 2016 17:52
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Jerkface posted:Man why did the rebel armsmen shoot at the skeletor shock troopers that just breaching charged into their ship followed by entering in while firing blindly into a diplomatic envoys ship corridor...after firing on them with giant laser cannons & using a tractor beam to detain a ship against their wishes due to possible thought crimes. Looking just at ANH, the Empire are baddies in the same way any "villain" is in fiction - They kill the protagonist's family - They genocide a population - They oppose the protagonist Star Wars is fantasy, after all, and yeah there's genre tropes, and yes, to a literal child they're the "bad guys" But so what? Why is that interesting to talk about? You said in your post what essentially boils down to "turn your brain off, they're the bad guys" when all this last page has been discussing is stuff that's literally in the text If you want the satisfaction of hearing someone say it to you: yeah, the Empire are the bad guys of this fantasy movie made for children with laser swords. Do you feel cool now; you done? Can those of us who want to talk as if art has anything deeper than a surface level?
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May 5, 2016 18:29
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Schwarzwald posted:Alderaan was a peaceful world with no weapons We don't know that. In fact the government thought it was the seat of a violent rebellion.
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May 5, 2016 18:34
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There's plenty of depth in the Rebels and how the hold similarities to the Empire and engage in morally grey actions (as any guerilla force does). It's just that the Death Star's destruction is a poor area to choose for this task. That doesn't mean that you have to stop reading into it, just note that persuading others to your interpretation will be an uphill battle.
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May 5, 2016 18:34
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The point isn't to excuse the Empire's violence, but to compare the destruction of that single planet to the war that took place across thousands of planets just a few decades earlier. Going further: even in peacetime, there was great systemic violence in just maintaining the smooth functioning of the Republic - and great symbolic violence in the racism directed at droids and aliens. The Droid Control Ships, Naboo's Plasma Refinery, and the planet of Corusant are all species of Death Star.
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May 5, 2016 18:43
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Jerkface posted:I'm glad the thread has reached the point of unironically agreeing with the gop that the empire did nothing wrong believing the empire did something wrong is unwitting admittance the bombing of hiroshima and nagasaki was an unconscionable act of cruelty. cheerleaders for american imperialism twist themselves into pretzels to justify that slaughter so it's only natural those would extend to depictions of it in fiction
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May 5, 2016 18:54
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Homework Explainer posted:believing the empire did something wrong is unwitting admittance the bombing of hiroshima and nagasaki was an unconscionable act of cruelty. cheerleaders for american imperialism twist themselves into pretzels to justify that slaughter so it's only natural those would extend to depictions of it in fiction I know I already melted down on Jerkface but to respond to that same quote again: literally no one is saying the Empire did nothing wrong, but instead that the rebels did wrong things too--in fact just as wrong
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May 5, 2016 19:05
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Waffles Inc. posted:I know I already melted down on Jerkface but to respond to that same quote again: literally no one is saying the Empire did nothing wrong, but instead that the rebels did wrong things too--in fact just as wrong And that requires a significant argument; that they both have sphere guns isn't enough, nor that they both blew up spheres.
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May 5, 2016 19:15
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I don't think I would go all the way to the Rebellion is exactly as wrong as the Empire, but I am on board with the Rebellion was not innocent and the Republic was not just.
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May 5, 2016 19:28
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Waffles Inc. posted:I know I already melted down on Jerkface but to respond to that same quote again: literally no one is saying the Empire did nothing wrong, but instead that the rebels did wrong things too--in fact just as wrong i wasn't talking about people itt, just saw an opening to dunk on nagasaki defenders/the united states of america. the rebels are Space Viet Cong minus any ideology so i'm sympathetic to them
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May 5, 2016 19:29
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You never see the domestic spaces of the Empire, and their human faces are solely old, cynical men. This is how we tend to imagine our political enemies-not in their domestic spaces, masculine and dated, ailing health, ect.  The bit-soldiers of the Republic are often young and dressed in easily distinguishable ways  The storm-trooper's come off as inhumane, but as soon as they are dwarfed by trees and working as partners they come off as more human. Even as a child I remember feeling for all the clumsy soldiers struggling to complete their mission on Endor.  The spacious domestic spaces on Coruscant are interesting. Neither cluttered nor minimalist (just enough decor to cross the line of "functionalism") their dominant feature is the window to the vast cityscape. It shows how the unorthodox pregnancy and secret affair is to be read in the backdrop of the Public.  It's crazy that Obi-Wan's take-off scene is shot from below, not above. The multitude of towers in Coruscant look variegated but theirs plenty of doubles, and I don't think this was just a decision to save production shots but an intentional component of the city.
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May 5, 2016 19:34
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The age distinction could be related to the generational themes in both ANH and RotJ (it takes a backseat in ESB), where the prior generation either holds back or resists the new generation, and as a result the old generation is defined by its age and discrimination. The reading of them as being pictured as cold and inhumane runs counter to many of the imperial scenes we witness (particularly with regards to Vader, Peter Cushing, and conversational troopers). Many of these moments also happen in sterile environments, but the human aspects are not muted. If anything, it's these human elements and similarities to the Rebels that make the Empire's mistakes and corruption hit harder, rather than obscure the distinction between the two factions.
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May 5, 2016 19:47
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This space laser-sword magic-power series for grade school children has nothing to do with Hiroshima but nice try on making GBS threads up the thread even worse than it already was
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May 5, 2016 19:47
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MrMojok posted:This space laser-sword magic-power series for grade school children has nothing to do with Hiroshima but nice try on making GBS threads up the thread even worse than it already was movies have no relation to the world in which they are created, and other comfortable fictions for idiots
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May 5, 2016 20:00
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"Fear will keep the other systems in line. Fear of this battle-station" Totally not relevant to anything in the real world or American foreign policy in the 1960's 70's or 80's or 90's or today. Star Wars is for kids after all.
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May 5, 2016 20:09
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*sees vast imperial power vaporize a civilian target with overwhelming technological force* Hmmm. No parallels to anything here.
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May 5, 2016 20:10
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MrMojok posted:This space laser-sword magic-power series for grade school children has nothing to do with Hiroshima but nice try on making GBS threads up the thread even worse than it already was It's about a weapon so powerful that the fear of it alone can control opposing governments, and it was produced during the midst of the cold war. The Death Star is certainly not an atomic weapon, but it was absolutely meant to evoke the fear of one.
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May 5, 2016 20:14
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crowoutofcontext posted:
The duplicated towers are all part of the spaceport/military base Obi-Wan's carrier is launching from, whereas the rest of them belong to the cityscape in the background.
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May 5, 2016 20:24
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MrMojok posted:This space laser-sword magic-power series for grade school children has nothing to do with Hiroshima but nice try on making GBS threads up the thread even worse than it already was yeah george lucas creator of thx 1138 didn't intend any real world allegories or anything keep on keeping on mrmojok
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May 5, 2016 20:38
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Zoran posted:The duplicated towers are all part of the spaceport/military base Obi-Wan's carrier is launching from, whereas the rest of them belong to the cityscape in the background. Your right. I guess I should've said the contrast is between military, and domestic/trade towers. The Jedi Temple also has four uniform towers, but I forgot if that is what Obi-Wan departs from.  Neurolimal posted:The reading of them as being pictured as cold and inhumane runs counter to many of the imperial scenes we witness (particularly with regards to Vader, Peter Cushing, and conversational troopers). Many of these moments also happen in sterile environments, but the human aspects are not muted. If anything, it's these human elements and similarities to the Rebels that make the Empire's mistakes and corruption hit harder, rather than obscure the distinction between the two factions. I agree there are several important instances of humanness, I was talking about the Storm Troopers in general and the differences of having soldiers in faceless space-riot gear VS human faces. The movie would be read very differently if the rebels always had helmets on but you always saw the faces of the countless storm troopers, especially when they fall and die. If sterile environs bring out humanness, do cluttered, bustling environments dehumanize?
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May 5, 2016 21:27
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Took several clips at a Star Wars Symphony event last night (last one is the best one): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O5rScq630E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea0Ldn83dtI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4qrtQVBFHA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DstPXTr441M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJG5ZLrE-XM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrE2_hbcMQY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lUNqOoxsA0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=devLqJ0lA10 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxWvarMqS5k
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May 5, 2016 22:13
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Homework Explainer posted:*sees vast imperial power vaporize a civilian target with overwhelming technological force* Hmmm. No parallels to anything here. Ok FINE
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May 5, 2016 22:36
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http://www.starwars.com/news/star-wars-day-surprise-hear-the-full-version-of-jabba-flow-from-the-force-awakens
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May 5, 2016 22:51
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every time people start talking about allegory in kids stuff, people get upsets about people talking about allegory in kids stuff, even though kids stuff is always, always, always where you find the most patently obvious allegorical stuff.
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May 5, 2016 23:00
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Waffles Inc. posted:The Death Star was entirely soldiers? I believe Lucas touches on this in the AotC commentary in response to the conversation had in Clerks. If I recall correctly everyone on the Death Star was in the military.
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May 5, 2016 23:10
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Really, when you work on something called the Death Star whose sole purpose is blowing up planets, you bear some responsibility.
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May 5, 2016 23:40
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Maxwell Lord posted:Really, when you work on something called the Death Star whose sole purpose is blowing up planets, you bear some responsibility. "Have you noticed, that we work on...the...DEATH star?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpZ8EkK3eWY
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May 5, 2016 23:43
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I mean, in all odds there must have been like a chef or janitor or just some dude completely unrelated to warfare on U-Boats. I don't think anyone's going to decry the Allies for not attempting to nonlethally pacify them though.
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May 6, 2016 00:09
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MrMojok posted:This space laser-sword magic-power series for grade school children has nothing to do with Hiroshima but nice try on making GBS threads up the thread even worse than it already was lol yeah the success of Star Wars has nothing to do with cultural resonance in the aftermath of Vietnam, Weather Underground, Black Panthers, etc. The Empire/Republic dynamic is deeply American. Episode 7 did a good job with these themes even if it was primarily a commercial production rather than an artistic one. Finn and the First Order are allusions to the Stormtrooper Fascist LARP community. Film itself is the modernist media, and Star Wars is commonly identified as modern mythology. The dualism of science/technology and patriotism are quite significant to both Hiroshima and Star Wars. Mc Do Well fucked around with this message at 00:28 on May 6, 2016 |
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May 6, 2016 00:26
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K. Waste posted:every time people start talking about allegory in kids stuff, people get upsets about people talking about allegory in kids stuff, even though kids stuff is always, always, always where you find the most patently obvious allegorical stuff. I don't get why people want to act like there's nothing more to be gained from paying attention to stuff than there was when they were children. Like don't u think ur smarter now?? Now that u have the power 2 buy popsicles whenever you want???
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May 6, 2016 00:43
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Hat Thoughts posted:I don't get why people want to act like there's nothing more to be gained from paying attention to stuff than there was when they were children. Like don't u think ur smarter now?? Now that u have the power 2 buy popsicles whenever you want??? The real sogn of adulthood is when you learn to buy the boxes of Snickers icecream bars instead of the TMNT sticks with the asymmetrical eyes
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May 6, 2016 00:57
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