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For some reason that Vox article is coming to mind right about now.
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May 11, 2016 04:24
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Grognan posted:FPTP is literally satan at this point. Because there is no center left besides a couple voices. I am still pulling the lever for not-trump but that does not loving endear me to that mentality. FPTP is not the reason there isn't a further left party. Grognan posted:I don't agree, ergo I don't understand. nice liberalism? You've like completely whiffed on the dang point someone has tried to make like three times. Like the reason people in Appalachia aren't voting for liberal candidates has very little to do with taxes (which you also apparently think are largely voted on for some reason) it's because they don't even listen to what you're going to do for them with those taxes because they turned off at "and coal is not a part of the future for this country," because, shock-shock a region that has been promised poo poo over and over by a government that has consistently under performed, doesn't trust them to replace those coal jobs with anything. pacmania90 posted:LOLing real hard over here about blaming poor West Virginians for not being as "enlightened" as coastal liberals. I don't blame them entirely. Also I a native WV who lives and works here. BI NOW GAY LATER fucked around with this message at 04:31 on May 11, 2016 |
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May 11, 2016 04:25
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I'm definitely not a coastal liberal.
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May 11, 2016 04:31
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pacmania90 posted:LOLing real hard over here about blaming poor West Virginians for not being as "enlightened" as coastal liberals. West Virginians are dumb as gently caress, they just don't deserve for their state to be a dying shithole because of it 
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May 11, 2016 04:32
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Crowsbeak posted:For some reason that Vox article is coming to mind right about now. I think most people in this thread blame the situation and not the people hurt by it. At least that's my intention. I disagree with their solution is all. But blame those who just want to feed their family? I'm not cool doing that. I think it's really easy to misread when discussing a subject like this.
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May 11, 2016 04:32
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http://www.rawstory.com/2016/05/sc-man-who-shot-and-slow-cooked-intruders-out-on-bail-thanks-to-stand-your-ground-law/quote:Using the “stand your ground” defense, a Goose Creek man was granted bail on Monday in the shooting death of two men whose bodies he burned after he killed them, the Post Courier is reporting. 
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May 11, 2016 04:33
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:FPTP is not the reason there isn't a further left party. BI NOW GAY LATER posted:You've like completely whiffed on the dang point someone has tried to make like three times. Like the reason people in Appalachia aren't voting for liberal candidates has very little to do with taxes (which you also apparently think are largely voted on for some reason) it's because they don't even listen to what you're going to do for them with those taxes because they turned off at "and coal is not a part of the future for this country," because, shock-shock a region that has been promised poo poo over and over by a government that has consistently under performed, doesn't trust them to replace those coal jobs with anything.
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May 11, 2016 04:39
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Grognan posted:I would advance the notion between the Red Scare and the reaction to any leftward movement that it really IS a reason that there isn't an explicit voice for labor or the poor. You, once again, do not know what you're talking about -- this is just some like freshman year political science major poo poo. Like you're trying to shove in issues of how US voters view taxation in the context of a fairly narrow conversation about why rural whites in Appalachia vote against their own interests. Pretty much anyone in this thread accepts as a baseline that US voters are really loving dumb about how they view taxation for public services -- we get that and it's baked into anything else we're talking about here. Grognan posted:I would advance the notion between the Red Scare and the reaction to any leftward movement that it really IS a reason that there isn't an explicit voice for labor or the poor. FPTP isn't the problem. BI NOW GAY LATER fucked around with this message at 04:47 on May 11, 2016 |
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May 11, 2016 04:42
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Elucidate motherfucker instead of telling me I am ignorant. Explain and actually bring info forward instead of defaulting on a "you are not as educated as me so I tell you so. Obviously you didn't get my college education." Also, why isn't FPTP the problem. There are clearly better representative voting models. Parliamentary or any sort of runoff voting might possibly be better than a system conceived in the 18th century.
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May 11, 2016 04:51
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Grognan posted:Elucidate motherfucker instead of telling me I am ignorant. Explain and actually bring info forward instead of defaulting on a "you are not as educated as me so I tell you so. Obviously you didn't get my college education." That's the uspol way my friend.
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May 11, 2016 04:52
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Grognan posted:Elucidate motherfucker instead of telling me I am ignorant. Explain and actually bring info forward instead of defaulting on a "you are not as educated as me so I tell you so. Obviously you didn't get my college education." FPTP isn't the reason why far left candidates don't win elections in the US. It's because the US electorate isn't far left -- for a lot of reasons. And read the rest of the post I made above where i explained that "dumb ideas about taxes" are pre-baked into anything we're talking about. Grognan posted:Also, why isn't FPTP the problem. There are clearly better representative voting models. Parliamentary or any sort of runoff voting might possibly be better than a system conceived in the 18th century. FPTP exists in a bunch of parliamentary systems. (UK, Canada, etc.) Runoff (jungle primaries) already exist in the US and they tend to have some weird results, and you certainly don't want the Presidential race being a jungle primary. If you mean to say you'd prefer a parliamentary system -- that's a different substantive argument because parliamentary systems have drawbacks of their own. (and this is all to say, pipe dreaming because it's not going to change.) BI NOW GAY LATER fucked around with this message at 04:58 on May 11, 2016 |
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May 11, 2016 04:53
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Grognan posted:Elucidate motherfucker instead of telling me I am ignorant. Explain and actually bring info forward instead of defaulting on a "you are not as educated as me so I tell you so. Obviously you didn't get my college education." This post smells like a distillery
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May 11, 2016 04:54
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DemeaninDemon posted:That's the uspol way my friend. That could be the case. Full Battle Rattle posted:This post smells like a distillery I am taking the hint and although you weren't there when 1SG literally said that I will go shoot robots now.
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May 11, 2016 04:59
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:FPTP isn't the reason why far left candidates don't win elections in the US. It's because the US electorate isn't far left -- for a lot of reasons. FPTP means that third parties get crushed. So yes, if the electorate was hyper leftist we'd have 2 leftist parties. But FPTP is a big reason why non-majoritarian parties, such as leftist ones, don't win elections. So yes, FPTP is part of the issue in the lack of representation of leftist ideas in elected politicians.
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May 11, 2016 04:59
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Trabisnikof posted:FPTP means that third parties get crushed. So yes, if the electorate was hyper leftist we'd have 2 leftist parties. But FPTP is a big reason why non-majoritarian parties, such as leftist ones, don't win elections. This is really bad circular logic that ignores the actual reason third parties don't exist in this country -- which is the majority of people are centrists, and have been for a very long time. To say little of the funding barriers to a third party (which is the biggest issue.) BI NOW GAY LATER fucked around with this message at 05:04 on May 11, 2016 |
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May 11, 2016 05:00
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Sir Tonk posted:http://www.rawstory.com/2016/05/sc-man-who-shot-and-slow-cooked-intruders-out-on-bail-thanks-to-stand-your-ground-law/ Let's not forget this part: "While Loftis has given police varying accounts of what happened that evening — once saying he invited the men in, while another time saying they barged into his home — several facts are not in dispute." He at one point told the cops he invited the guys in to his house, yet the judge didn't tell him to shut the gently caress up when he invoked a SYG defense even though the guy's own story (at one point) would make SYG an impossible defense since the people were invited in (and then murdered). The upside to Trump winning is that we have a much higher chance of nuclear annihilation and letting the earth get a do-over, eventually.
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May 11, 2016 05:03
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Here's a better question for you Grogan, what do you think FPTP means.
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May 11, 2016 05:05
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:This is really bad circular logic that ignores the actual reason third parties don't exist in this country -- which is the majority of people are centrists, and have been for a very long time. Are you really trying to argue that FPTP doesn't hamper third parties? Maybe you should take that freshman year class you mentioned earlier.
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May 11, 2016 05:05
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Trabisnikof posted:Are you really trying to argue that FPTP doesn't hamper third parties? The only place that's really true is the US -- which seems to indicate that FPTP itself isn't the problem. Lot's of FPTP systems have strong third parties who help form plurality governments. Duverger's Law applies to an extent, but it's not the ONLY factor and FPTP isn't the primary reason we don't have third parties in the US, and move to a plurality system can create problems of it's own that are just as serious to the ability to govern. BI NOW GAY LATER fucked around with this message at 05:10 on May 11, 2016 |
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May 11, 2016 05:07
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The best part about the WV situation is that, the second any public polling progress is made for moving away from coal, the coal baron governor will just sell off a shitload of state assets and claim that one year windfall as proof that coal is making a big comeback. Then spend the next 10 years blaming Democrats and liberals for the fact that things are now, in fact, worse
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May 11, 2016 05:09
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Trabisnikof posted:Are you really trying to argue that FPTP doesn't hamper third parties? http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/duvergers-law-dead-parrot-dunleavy/
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May 11, 2016 05:10
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Epic High Five posted:The best part about the WV situation is that, the second any public polling progress is made for moving away from coal, the coal baron governor will just sell off a shitload of state assets and claim that one year windfall as proof that coal is making a big comeback. Then spend the next 10 years blaming Democrats and liberals for the fact that things are now, in fact, worse I don't think Jim Justice will do that, to be honest.
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May 11, 2016 05:11
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Evil Fluffy posted:Let's not forget this part: Detention hearing have weird rules when it comes to what testimony is admitted and considered. I dunno how that state works, but defending on who and how the different stories came into play, judge might not have been able to keep it out. Giving the dumb gently caress bail seems like a bad judgment call.
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May 11, 2016 05:36
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Grondoth posted:People are dumb trying to vote their way into their industry staying around, and yeah coal is garbage. But they're also trying to save their towns and way of life. It should be no surprise they're doing this.
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May 11, 2016 05:38
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Grognan posted:Elucidate motherfucker instead of telling me I am ignorant. Explain and actually bring info forward instead of defaulting on a "you are not as educated as me so I tell you so. Obviously you didn't get my college education." Australia has a wonderfully proportional system for their Parliament, and they still have a government in power right now that's all about slashing current taxes, preventing new taxes, and incidentally running literal concentration camps for refugees. The problem isn't the voting system, it's the electorate. If people believe and want dumb things, an electoral system that responds to their wishes gives us stupid policy.
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May 11, 2016 05:39
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:FPTP is not the reason there isn't a further left party. Well that an also the fact that the country is absurdly right wing.
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May 11, 2016 06:32
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Bip Roberts posted:Well that an also the fact that the country is absurdly right wing. I think that depends on your standard.
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May 11, 2016 06:42
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How dare coastal liberals vote for shitbag republicans in rural districts. Just showing up and voting for these vultures, if it wasn't for the city-slicker liberals stuffing the ballot box the woods would thrum with leftist uprisings.
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May 11, 2016 06:42
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So yeah, tonight Trump declared in an interview that he would appoint a Supreme Court Justice who would overturn Roe V Wade. Courting that women vote.
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May 11, 2016 06:55
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:So yeah, tonight Trump declared in an interview that he would appoint a Supreme Court Justice who would overturn Roe V Wade. THE PIVOT!
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May 11, 2016 06:59
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:One of the big issues is there's so much work that has to be done in this region before you can credibly say you can bring non-resource extraction jobs here. Can't we help them leave instead? Provide relocation assistance and job training to suit the area they're relocating to - that sort of thing. Yeah, it suck that their little towns are dying, but small towns die. That's where the phrase 'ghost town' comes from, after all. Hell, Detroit proves that big cities can pretty effectively go into a coma, too. Seems like that'd be more cost effective and faster, too.
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May 11, 2016 07:04
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:This is really bad circular logic that ignores the actual reason third parties don't exist in this country -- which is the majority of people are centrists, and have been for a very long time. To say little of the funding barriers to a third party (which is the biggest issue.) The lack of a viable leftist party feeds directly into that centrism, though. The range of "valid" opinions are strongly limited by the edges of the two main parties. Sanders is the left-most edge for the population, and as far as the media goes Hillary really is. By defining anything outside those bounds as ridiculous fantasy it teaches people what valid opinions are allowed to be. It's not all positive though, as we'd also have a very strong "America First" style party on the right. You're right that it's not just FPTP though, our entire system has a lot of strong feedback that punishes third parties. More seats would help, but I think the core of the problem is land votes instead of people. You're the congressman for this chunk of land, elected by the majority of the people living in it's boundaries. A party with 25% support statewide gets exactly zero seats, since they're a minority in every patch of land. While it's technically possible to change that, it's practically impossible. fishmech posted:The problem isn't the voting system, it's the electorate. If people believe and want dumb things, an electoral system that responds to their wishes gives us stupid policy. Republicans get a minority of votes in the country, yet hold a massive majority of seats due to gerrymandering. Even when they get a slight majority, their representation gets amplified due to bullshit district boundaries. I don't think it's the fault of the electorate when that happens. Harik fucked around with this message at 07:18 on May 11, 2016 |
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May 11, 2016 07:13
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:So yeah, tonight Trump declared in an interview that he would appoint a Supreme Court Justice who would overturn Roe V Wade. Congratulations Associate Justice Ted Cruz or Alabama Asshat Dude.
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May 11, 2016 07:17
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:The only place that's really true is the US -- which seems to indicate that FPTP itself isn't the problem. Lot's of FPTP systems have strong third parties who help form plurality governments. Are we talking about FPTP or winner-takes-all elections, because those are not the same thing. Non-representative voting in the US is certainly a major reason for the 2 party system (along with your hosed-up campaign finance laws), and countries that use FPTP voting are typically parliamentary systems with representational party voting. botany fucked around with this message at 07:43 on May 11, 2016 |
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May 11, 2016 07:40
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You'll never guess who's behind all that money going into non-partisan judicial races nationwide!
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May 11, 2016 07:44
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Whether or not Duverger's law is deterministic, the argument that you're "wasting your vote" or that your vote helps your opponent, along with the really high viability thresholds, definitely help reinforce the two party system. Just saying it can help sway voters away from third party temptation. We also have an extensive primary system that helps parties resolve intra-party competition, and let's different factions fight it out without risking handing over the election to the other side. For example, If your libertarian faction can't even get a majority of Republican primary voters, why bother running a party that you know will lose, and will hand it to the dems? JosefStalinator fucked around with this message at 08:19 on May 11, 2016 |
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May 11, 2016 08:17
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If Strasser had not died, and had instead won and gotten to power, we could've avoided so much slaughter. We basically live in social fascism as it is but of the Nazi kind, as we the West have imperial domination of the globe by means of militarist nationalism and covert intimation of white anglophone european ethnic supremacy delivered by an unjust corporatist system. the Big Lie, Big Other / Enemy in the Marcusian sense and social darwinism are still very mch present and none is of course undertaken in the interest of a classless society. I believe the Trump candidacy would be terrible if brought to fruition, as it would increase in the power of the financialist-capitalist interest groups. The proper Strasserite candidate, just like Corbyn in the UK, is of course: Bernie Sanders or Hillary Clinton. Hillary's ties to the financial elite are too strong to ignore but I think that without the Sanders plan to liberate higher learning institutions from the clutches of the financial elite, the impending student debt crisis will materialize under Hillary's watch, the consequences of which will at least prepare a new jugend for Bernie or another candidate.
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May 11, 2016 08:19
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Those other countries (the UK, Canada, India) have parliamentary systems with strong party discipline. US parties have room for more ideological diversity (although this is becoming less true). It doesn't make sense for a new faction to start their own party when they can simply hijack an existing party, as has happened repeatedly over the past 150 years.
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May 11, 2016 08:32
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SSJ2 Goku Wilders posted:If Strasser had not died, and had instead won and gotten to power, we could've avoided so much slaughter. We basically live in social fascism as it is but of the Nazi kind, as we the West have imperial domination of the globe by means of militarist nationalism and covert intimation of white anglophone european ethnic supremacy delivered by an unjust corporatist system. the Big Lie, Big Other / Enemy in the Marcusian sense and social darwinism are still very mch present and none is of course undertaken in the interest of a classless society. HAHA what the gently caress is this poo poo? The gently caress is wrong with you? Shimrra Jamaane fucked around with this message at 08:43 on May 11, 2016 |
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May 11, 2016 08:40
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Trump would serve the interests of the National Bolsheviks and the Pan-Asiatic movement spearheaded by Alexandr Dugin. A trump presidency would be the geopolitical equivalent of Limonov shooting a sniper rifle into Sarajevo.
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May 11, 2016 08:45
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