VitalSigns posted:In very very brief: Seeing it summarized like this, it's very easy to see how people who believe this nonsense today have given us bullshit like "job creators."
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May 12, 2016 03:23
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Zerilan posted:Seeing it summarized like this, it's very easy to see how people who believe this nonsense today have given us bullshit like "job creators." It's taking arrogance, self-centeredness, greed, hypocrisy, and good old fashioned entitlement and making them all virtues. It also tells them that the upper class must never be challenged while giving false impressions that believing in the rambling of the upper class also makes them similar to these walking gods. Then it tells them that anyone who isn't among the chosen few is completely irrelevant (the chosen ones can do everything perfectly) and morally worse since they dare to ask anything of the chosen ones. Ayn Rand's work is basically the distilled character flaws of corporate America and built into an elaborate fantasy where they can take revenge on anyone who failed to indulge the believers. They're basically proto-Fox News in ideals.
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May 12, 2016 03:33
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SumYungGui posted:There's also an unbelievably lovely monologue in the book. Look at this untermensch who heard John Galt's epistle and didn't immediately pledge fealty to Ayn Rand. Enjoy starving after civilization collapses when all the wealthy superior men of the mind go Galt.
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May 12, 2016 03:33
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Pixelboy posted:Listening to our local knuckleheads on AM radio during drive in this morning.
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May 12, 2016 03:49
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Intel&Sebastian posted:PULL UP PAT PULL UPPPPPPPPPPP I am afraid to ask. but what was the subject? Edit. looked it up. he is digging NC a grave.
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May 12, 2016 03:55
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FMguru posted:Cable news is the same thing. Add: Mesothelioma settlement lawyers, medigap insurance, mobility scooters, mail-order discount catheters, and tons of medicine ads with long lists of side effects. If they have CNN on the screen when I'm at the gym I finish my workout absolutely terrified of my own impending mortality. I love that O'Reilly and Maury Povich share advertising.
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May 12, 2016 04:02
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Is it crazy to start thinking that instead of the other tran stuff in bills, their goal was always Civil Rights itself from the beginning with these kinds of statements?
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May 12, 2016 04:06
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Crabtree posted:Is it crazy to start thinking that instead of the other tran stuff in bills, their goal was always Civil Rights itself from the beginning with these kinds of statements? Basically. These sorts of "religious freedom" bills and all are just a backdoor attempt to restore a segregation to businesses. Trump shows that angry racists have become so bold that they don't have to even try hiding it anymore.
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May 12, 2016 04:10
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radical meme posted:What, no ads for gold as best investment against the apocalypse? Aren't almost all of them certificates, and then they make it really hard/impossible if you actually try to show up to get the physical gold? Like libertarian fun-bucks or something
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May 12, 2016 04:16
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Geostomp posted:Basically. These sorts of "religious freedom" bills and all are just a backdoor attempt to restore a segregation to businesses. Trump shows that angry racists have become so bold that they don't have to even try hiding it anymore. Just to businesses? It looks like they want segregation back everywhere and in full force whether businesses see a profit it in it or not. Good Christ they're going to nuke the state at this point.
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May 12, 2016 04:19
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SumYungGui posted:Depending on the size of print and the book it can range from like 40-60 pages of one character just spewing out rhetorical bullshit completely uninterrupted. Completely. Nobody else says anything, ever, there are no other actions taking place; completely uninterrupted. Not even a 'he said'. It's paragraph after paragraph, page after page of one of these captains of industry vomiting words at the reader. Orwell did something similar in 1984, where the plot completely stops for a fifty page essay about how IngSoc worked. It's kind of a lazy shortcut for world-building, but at least Orwell was a decent writer. Also, a lot of it was new information, while I'm guessing Galt's speech was a rehash of stuff that was already evident from the preceding several hundred pages.
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May 12, 2016 05:13
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Crabtree posted:Just to businesses? It looks like they want segregation back everywhere and in full force whether businesses see a profit it in it or not. Good Christ they're going to nuke the state at this point. I saw an interesting article recently that called the North Carolina politicians "neo carpetbaggers" -- they're almost all from out of state. And once they're gone they'll have nice careers as lobbyists / consultants.
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May 12, 2016 05:25
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Jurgan posted:Orwell did something similar in 1984, where the plot completely stops for a fifty page essay about how IngSoc worked. It's kind of a lazy shortcut for world-building, but at least Orwell was a decent writer. Also, a lot of it was new information, while I'm guessing Galt's speech was a rehash of stuff that was already evident from the preceding several hundred pages. I really dug that part. While it is a gigantic world-building digression, it does the crucial job of explaining the backstory and history of the setting, explaining how and why things got the way that they are, and traces the development of the dystopia (which is something a lot of more recent YA dystopias DON'T do, but that's another post). Understanding the philosophy and reasoning of IngSoc is crucial to fully understanding the message that he was imparting... Which is in direct contrast to Atlas Shrugged, which from what I've read (like many others, I haven't read the book but I've read a lot about it) is just an extended 'look how clever I am' session of literary masturbation. Edit: And Orwell at least had the honesty to have his essay be prefaced with, "And then Winston sat down, opened up the forbidden book, and began to read" rather than just having a character spew out garbage for hours.
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May 12, 2016 05:54
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VitalSigns posted:It's pretty much this: More to it, she essentially "solved" a bunch of major philosophical arguments by saying "Well I say its this way so that's the proof" which was the equivalent of taking crayons to the page and then calling it a thesis. As an example here's a famous one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem And she dismissed 200+ years of serious discussion and study with "My way is right and that's it. No discussion." The talk page on the article even has someone trying to inject her claim into the page and responding with claims of a conspiracy against her for it not being included.
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May 12, 2016 06:04
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I kind of hope he reads these e-mails all the time now, aweing at the bullshit he's spent decades fomentingquote:RUSH: I just got an email from a Trumpist who -- it's fascinating. I know all these Trump supporters and they're fantasizing about what Trump is gonna tell Paul Ryan when they have their big confab tomorrow, and I have to read one of these to you. Here, I just printed it out. This helps me to understand the average Trump supporter's mental attitude about all this, and it helps me to extrapolate and then understand how Trump supporters are gonna react to anything that involves Trump.
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May 12, 2016 06:40
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SumYungGui posted:All of the characters have the depth of a cardboard cutout and character development is a bad thing that happens to other authors. Oh you mean galtse.cx ? Of course Rand believes that without this single man there would be NO STEEL, like the mines and factories would just shut down if he ceased to exist or went to jail.
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May 12, 2016 06:52
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Epic High Five posted:Oh you mean Yes, because every single day John Pemberton single handedly went and acquired all of the ingredients for his recipe, mixed them himself, then told his staff how to prepare, bottle, and sell them without imparting any of that knowledge to his employees. How the hell would anyone seriously consider that the production of a company rested on the actions of a single person? Oh wait, right. :rand:
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May 12, 2016 07:18
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I don't want to be bitchy but this ayn rand derail has being going on for 12+ pages at this point. Is there a possibility it could, I dunno, move somewhere relevant?
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May 12, 2016 07:30
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Aesop Poprock posted:I don't want to be bitchy but this ayn rand derail has being going on for 12+ pages at this point. Is there a possibility it could, I dunno, move somewhere relevant? Ayn Rand's books are media constantly used and drawn upon and cited by the right wing, so it's pretty relevant here imo
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May 12, 2016 07:34
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Let's finish this derail off with the definite take.
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May 12, 2016 07:35
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7c Nickel posted:Let's finish this derail off with the definite take. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_j56IiLqZ9U
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May 12, 2016 07:51
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I quite enjoyed that derail because I'd heard of Atlas Shrugged and that it was poo poo and things like the John Galt speech but I had no real idea of any concrete examples of why it was supposed to be bad. Between how much of an selfish rear end in a top hat mary sue everyone has to be and how poorly done it all is, now I do.
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May 12, 2016 07:54
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Considering Ayn Rand's is what most conservatives think of when they think of the Bible as opposed to the Bible itself, I'd say discussion of her work is absolutely relevant, especially since the new GOP is shedding most of its evangelical trappings in favor of a more libertarian-style approach.
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May 12, 2016 08:04
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My problem with it is less the connection to where the relevancy began and more the fact that it's been dominating pages for close to 15 of them at this point. But if I'm the only person who's over it I'll shut up
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May 12, 2016 08:39
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Aesop Poprock posted:My problem with it is less the connection to where the relevancy began and more the fact that it's been dominating pages for close to 15 of them at this point. But if I'm the only person who's over it I'll shut up I don't really care about Ayn Rand either but I can't complain that it's irrelevant. Maybe someone could start a new thread for it? It can be the Paul Ryan 2016 thread
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May 12, 2016 08:41
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drat Ayn Rand for creating such an easy to discuss piece of literature! If only the right wing could provide another topic that people could converse over while Atlas tries to not shrug under the weight of this topic!
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May 12, 2016 08:44
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Aesop Poprock posted:My problem with it is less the connection to where the relevancy began and more the fact that it's been dominating pages for close to 15 of them at this point. But if I'm the only person who's over it I'll shut up Eh, on one hand yes it's not telling me the latest dumb thing that conservatives are doing. On the other hand it's late, even regressive, transphobic shithead governors need sleep and the discussion is an interesting read. Also helping me learn more about the book without ever having to touch it.
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May 12, 2016 08:46
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Mr Ice Cream Glove posted:This will go well Oh boy, I hope I have a shift then!
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May 12, 2016 09:38
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Mr Ice Cream Glove posted:This will go well Time to organize a counter protest about how you shouldn't be dicks to people who feel like they shouldn't have a dick... they've already got too many dicks as it is!
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May 12, 2016 11:51
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Chilichimp posted:Time to organize a counter protest about how you shouldn't be dicks to people who feel like they shouldn't have a dick... they've already got too many dicks as it is! You know they say what makes a woman falls between two things. her chromosomes.
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May 12, 2016 12:25
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Aesop Poprock posted:Aren't almost all of them certificates, and then they make it really hard/impossible if you actually try to show up to get the physical gold? Like libertarian fun-bucks or something Yes, some reporter did a little digging and discovered how obfuscated their process is. The big thing is that you can only redeem them at their one warehouse out in the middle of nowhere Nebraska which has no signage to let you know it is the proper facility. Even once you get there it isn't easy and they try to dissuade you from doing it.
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May 12, 2016 16:25
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kik2dagroin posted:I kind of hope he reads these e-mails all the time now, aweing at the bullshit he's spent decades fomenting Great, first we get Ted Cruz porn and now we're going to get Trump subordinate rape porn (gay, of course). Yep, knew what this was before clicked. Almost makes up for all the dumb poo poo those two have done with the show.
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May 12, 2016 16:50
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VitalSigns posted:And yes it does let all the tension out of the climax like a wet fart when you have villains that try as hard as they can not to kill the heroes because the villains can't live without them. I feel like you could actually make a compelling narrative where the protagonist and villain both rely on on each other too much to seriously harm the other. The climax could even be one of them geting fed up and just bailing, leaving the other to collapse under the weight of their shared bullshit. In that respect, it's kind of impressive how close Rand was to a good story concept.
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May 12, 2016 17:27
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That's basically like every Batman/Joker story.
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May 12, 2016 17:40
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I was thinking more the political thriller angle, but fair point.
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May 12, 2016 17:52
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Keeshhound posted:I feel like you could actually make a compelling narrative where the protagonist and villain both rely on on each other too much to seriously harm the other. The climax could even be one of them geting fed up and just bailing, leaving the other to collapse under the weight of their shared bullshit. Isn't that almost like Sherlock Holmes and Moriarty?
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May 12, 2016 17:56
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The Ape of Naples posted:Isn't that almost like Sherlock Holmes and Moriarty? I was thinking of 'Enemy Mine'.
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May 12, 2016 18:04
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Chilichimp posted:Time to organize a counter protest about how you shouldn't be dicks to people who feel like they shouldn't have a dick... they've already got too many dicks as it is! The time reminds me of the early start of the teaparty where Fox News/Koch paid for a carter bus to picked up old people and just have a protest for 30 mins before leaving so the old people can get the early bird special at the diner. Fairweather protesters.
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May 12, 2016 18:05
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RareAcumen posted:I quite enjoyed that derail because I'd heard of Atlas Shrugged and that it was poo poo and things like the John Galt speech but I had no real idea of any concrete examples of why it was supposed to be bad. ayn rand most definitely wrote most of the john galt speech high on meth and due to egoism refused to accept that her drug ramblings weren't perfect inspired prose direct from the objectivist muses themselves. this is why it was never edited and why any film adaptation had to do the whole thing, because it is Perfect really most of rand's writing and philosophy is explained by the fact that she was a big time no poo poo meth addict, back when meth came in the form of super rational and scientific 'pep pills'
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May 12, 2016 18:13
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Actually, to bring the discussion back to something approaching the original topic, that's kind of what I expect this thing with Trump and Ryan to end up being. They'll work together for a few weeks or a month to try to unify the party, then one of them (10 to 1 it's Trump) will snap, throw the other under the bus, and just burn it all down out of spite.
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May 12, 2016 18:18
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