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Dave Brookshaw posted:The last time I got to have direct input into a game's vocabulary, it was Demon and its "Demons try to avoid special words". Deviant will, touch wood, have smaller verbiage than Awakening. quote:EDIT: Oh, and I used my Developer's New-Edition privilege to change "Sanctums" to "sancta." That one's annoyed me since Sanctum & Sigil.
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May 13, 2016 02:15
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Rohan Kishibe posted:So reading through the Mage 2nd Ed book and I think this may be the first time I am both familiar with and enjoy everything listed under the Inspirational Media section. That and a blatant allusion to "No one can be told what the Matrix is" earlier and I think this book is shaping up nicely so far. I'm curious, what's the list?
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May 13, 2016 03:08
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While you're in here, DaveB, I got a few questions for you about Dissonance. Let's say a Thyrsus uses Life 4 to repair the brain damage of a Sleeper family member, spending the necessary time and effort to make it Indefinite duration as well as high enough potency. This would pretty obviously trigger Dissonance (and an integrity check) from the Sleeper. If the Dissonance result lowers the potency below 7, does the brain damage come back, even if the spell's still around? More horrifyingly, does living with the knowledge that your brain is only operating via magic count as witnessing obvious magic at all times, making the Sleeper slowly go insane as they wear away at the spell keeping them healthy? 'cause if so that's basically Flowers for Algernon but with wizards and that seems both incredibly brutal and very, very in-theme.
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May 13, 2016 03:20
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Dave Brookshaw posted:Mage's lexicon is so big I keep it in a spreadsheet. It was extremely long in the 1st ed corebook, and every sourcebook since has added to it. Sometimes it reminds me of Dictionary of Mu. In fairness, so do us weird 'real' magic-y types. It's just being 'authentic'!
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May 13, 2016 06:50
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citybeatnik posted:If you could link that draft that'll be awesome. Wanna see what they're doing with CORN FOR THE CORN GOD! I'm afraid I was mistaken: it's more of a preview than a draft, and it's all about the system they are going to use for Scion & co. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1muyXqM1SO07HCuPPyXcw0BLwv1Hbp9ltiXHDHpvPJQg/edit https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mxa3JGoAq-FDw4MLlWO-1Ci8ezvvVXMhSOFl3cTwR6M/edit https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tGOJRG7u3egaibnxbdye8TNiPiWQBgPvxIBDChtH2iQ/edit
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May 13, 2016 08:01
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Daeren posted:While you're in here, DaveB, I got a few questions for you about Dissonance. Let's say a Thyrsus uses Life 4 to repair the brain damage of a Sleeper family member, spending the necessary time and effort to make it Indefinite duration as well as high enough potency. This would pretty obviously trigger Dissonance (and an integrity check) from the Sleeper. If the Dissonance result lowers the potency below 7, does the brain damage come back, even if the spell's still around? More horrifyingly, does living with the knowledge that your brain is only operating via magic count as witnessing obvious magic at all times, making the Sleeper slowly go insane as they wear away at the spell keeping them healthy? Yup! Lots of mages talk a big game about helping people, but it often ends up a horrorshow. You could couple it with one of the spells to make the subject a Sleepwalker and hope that doesn't get dispelled, either.
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May 13, 2016 12:04
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paradoxGentleman posted:I'm afraid I was mistaken: it's more of a preview than a draft, and it's all about the system they are going to use for Scion & co. There's some evolution since (though I'm not 100% on where without comparing it) and Trinity and Scion are both naturalising that system to their own needs; those documents are, say, what the Storyteller varient Exalted 1st ed and Trinity shared would look like if you removed everything about Exalted or Trinity. Traits will be renamed. Dials will be adjusted.
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May 13, 2016 12:08
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In other news, WtF 2e: The Pack just got released. Haven't had a chance to close read yet, but: Chapter 1 - Pack as character, how to build and play a pack, new Pack merits. Chapter 2 - Life in a pack as the various types of character - werewolf, wolf-blood, human, totem, other potential members. Pack tactics, totem stuff. Chapter 3 - Protectorates, Lodges. Chapter 4 - new locations. Pack merits are merits held by a pack character sheet if you go that route. Anyone in the pack can use them, but they have to roll the Merit's dot rating to do so. Merits include Den (low-gauntlet place the pack can Reach in but not a Locus), Directed Rage (easier to control Kuruth to not attack packmates), Magnanimous Totem (wolf-bloods and humans can buy up Totem dots), Moon's Grace (wolf-bloods and humans can learn Pack Tactics, Wolf Rites or even Gifts, but pack must have no actual Uratha) and Territorial Advantage (you can inflict Conditions on intruders on your turf). We finally get actual stats for normal wolves. Section on Beasts in a pack talks about how werewolves tend to be leery and suspicious of them at best, most of the time, but can be useful. Beasts remain annoying. Pack Tactics now custom-created based on a set of possible things they can do. Lodges now have a set of merits you can take to use their resources, and provide mechanical changes - a blessing, a lodge Aspiration and a ban, plus a benefit on the sacred hunt. Also some lodges have their own unique merits - Garm has a unique martial art, Uma Suguthkuth. Dubai is home to a weird, unique creature called the Warden that lives in Shadow and produces weird ooze that kills humans and corrupts spirits to serve it. The Warden's goal appears to be enforcing order and peace in its parts of the Shadow, plus increasing its control. Wealth disparity is a huge deal.
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May 13, 2016 12:50
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So, quick question, DaveB. Trans person comes out, chooses new name for themself to better represent who they really are. Sympathetic name is their dead name still?
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May 13, 2016 13:53
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Surely your sympathetic name would be the name that resonates with you, describes who you are to yourself, and not a name somebody else gave you that you don't relate to or identify with. VVVVV Eww. Pope Guilty fucked around with this message at 14:10 on May 13, 2016 |
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May 13, 2016 14:02
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May 13, 2016 14:07
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Pope Guilty posted:Surely your sympathetic name would be the name that resonates with you, describes who you are to yourself, and not a name somebody else gave you that you don't relate to or identify with. Yeah, but are there rules for that name changing?
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May 13, 2016 14:07
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And yet the name with the strongest power over me is not my birth name. Weird.
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May 13, 2016 14:28
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Loomer posted:And yet the name with the strongest power over me is not my birth name. Weird. The supernal says you are wrong and so is your identity.
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May 13, 2016 14:33
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Kavak posted:The supernal says you are wrong and so is your identity. Like I said, eww.
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May 13, 2016 14:34
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Well, I guess it's true that if someone wanted to really hurt me or upset me, they'd use the name my parents gave me, but that's an aspect of reality I'd honestly prefer not to think about in my make-believe games...
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May 13, 2016 14:58
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I kind of get the intent - it makes Shadow Name protect you even if you identify as, like, the Nemean (as the Nemean presumably does at this point). But...
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May 13, 2016 15:07
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Even putting aside the trans issue this makes no sense. An immigrant can use an English name outside the home and their birth name with their family, and one of those is totally irrelevant?
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May 13, 2016 15:07
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Haven’t really looked at the book yet, but it’s still a Link like any other, right? I would think that would mean that you could still use Mind to fray that sympathetic connection. Rituals where a person is rechristened and “leaves their old life behind” are pretty common. If nothing else, it would be a good way to start on Occultation. Also, I don't see any implications that other names can't also become Links. I mean, that's why Mages tend to change Shadownames over time in my campaigns. Justice Grieves fucked around with this message at 15:27 on May 13, 2016 |
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May 13, 2016 15:24
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There's also plenty of cultures where people chose their own names when they reached adulthood.
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May 13, 2016 16:48
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Justice Grieves posted:Also, I don't see any implications that other names can't also become Links. I mean, that's why Mages tend to change Shadownames over time in my campaigns. Implied by a later spell that can give "a second" sympathetic name, which is temporary.
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May 13, 2016 16:51
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Mors Rattus posted:So, quick question, DaveB. Trans person comes out, chooses new name for themself to better represent who they really are. Yes. Which is undeniably harsh, but yes. It's why we emphasize Awakened culture as treating calling any mage by their sympathetic name as deadnaming (the Seers will especially kill over it, much as that denies obvious "Mr Anderson" quote-alikes). And call them sympathetic names, not "real names" like last edition. It's a scar in your Space Pattern. Mastery can get rid of it. Dave Brookshaw fucked around with this message at 17:00 on May 13, 2016 |
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May 13, 2016 16:58
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Kavak posted:Even putting aside the trans issue this makes no sense. An immigrant can use an English name outside the home and their birth name with their family, and one of those is totally irrelevant? By the time they're old enough to use anything for themselves, it's irrelevant. Read that pasted sidebar in conjunction with the one about mages and identities in Chapter Two. Sympathetic names don't change to conform with a person's self-identity because they're an imposition. They're the prison-brand of the Exarchs. Awakening chooses to show all mages building their magical identities as who they really are - just as Gnosis is a trait, we have things like the Shadow Name Merit, the way mages' Dream Forms appear as what they think of themselves. Every character in the game is rising above being trapped in the Lie. Undermining that to avoid knee-jerk reactions about inclusiveness would be cheap. Everyone gets hit by the sympathetic name stick, until Sufficient Magic lets you tell the universe to gently caress off. Dave Brookshaw fucked around with this message at 17:12 on May 13, 2016 |
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May 13, 2016 17:01
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I suppose that makes a certain amount of sense. And one can look at it as people who change their names having a sort of double layer of protection because finding their Sympathetic name is even harder than normal.
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May 13, 2016 17:27
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Mors Rattus posted:Section on Beasts in a pack talks about how werewolves tend to be leery and suspicious of them at best, most of the time, but can be useful. Beasts remain annoying. To be fair, "They're horrible people and probably to be avoided, but can be useful in certain situations" is probably the closest thing we can get to an in-character condemnation of the line.
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May 13, 2016 18:29
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The first sample pack is Seattle-based werewolves who have set up an LLC indie game development company. This tracks. Of course this is what they'd do. What the hell else would wolves do in Seattle?
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May 13, 2016 18:31
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Mors Rattus posted:The first sample pack is Seattle-based werewolves who have set up an LLC indie game development company. Black Dog lives on!
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May 13, 2016 18:38
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Dave Brookshaw posted:By the time they're old enough to use anything for themselves, it's irrelevant. I don't think it's a knee-jerk reaction, but I see your point.
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May 13, 2016 18:48
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I don't play Werewolf but I'm really curious about the section on regular-rear end wolves in the Pack and the benefits of that. Is there any general advice on making dumb beasts of the field into interesting characters? Surely if any game supports Call of the Wild it's this one.
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May 13, 2016 19:06
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First, wolves are easier to deal with than human pack members in one sense - you can just straight up tell them what's going on. They may not understand it all but they won't argue and need the info to help you hunt and not get killed. They mention what each tribe tends to do with them. Blood Talons teach them to tell Pure blood from Forsaken by scent and use them as trackers. Bone Shadows use wolves to shape local resonance towards predation and pack, using it against spirits when they can or to feed their totem. Hunters in Darkness treat wolves as sort of host-sniffing dogs. Iron Masters raise wolfdogs and train them for other packs, and use them as threats to show to human prey. Storm Lords love to use wolves to flush out the Claimed and also like them in general. Ghost Wolves just hang out with wolves in search of sanity. They talk about how caging up the wolves is cruel and they hate it, and that domesticating wolves is a bad idea if you're not good at it. Wolves will usually let you be dominant...but you can't take them for granted. It talks a lot about wolf instincts and actual wolf pack dynamics when interacting with them, plus some rumors on what running with wolves does to a pack. (Ranging from 'they make great hosts for a totem shift' to 'you go all Lon Chaney'.)
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May 13, 2016 19:17
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Also how badly a werewolf who doesn't know what he's doing can gently caress up a wild wolf pack's family dynamic. Which was neat to see.
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May 13, 2016 19:18
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Dave Brookshaw posted:Also how badly a werewolf who doesn't know what he's doing can gently caress up a wild wolf pack's family dynamic. Which was neat to see. This was something that was briefly touched on towards the end of W:TA with the Red Talons. Since they never completely "grew up" normal and have this image in their (very human) minds of how wolves are meant to live, they try to enforce that lifestyle upon the packs and create this endlessly reinforcing cycle of not very wolf-like wolves that insist that they're the wolfiest wolves that ever wolfed.
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May 13, 2016 19:48
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Also noteworthy: without guns involved, wolves gently caress people up. 7 die attack pool, Defense 8 and 7 Willpower to spend. They will also get angry when you, their new "alpha," fail to produce pups. So, good luck with that part.
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May 13, 2016 19:50
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Mors Rattus posted:Also noteworthy: without guns involved, wolves gently caress people up. 7 die attack pool, Defense 8 and 7 Willpower to spend. They will also get angry when you, their new "alpha," fail to produce pups. So, good luck with that part. I'm now picturing the lupine equivalent of your mother glaring at you and asking when she's goinv to have grandkids.
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May 13, 2016 19:55
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citybeatnik posted:I'm now picturing the lupine equivalent of your mother glaring at you and asking when she's goinv to have grandkids. It's more to the point of an alpha that can't produce pups is usually a signal that the pack needs to break up or a new breeding pair needs to take over (since wolf packs are usually extended families the alpha doesn't just take over breeding duties, that's probably his mom)
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May 13, 2016 20:00
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Mors Rattus posted:The first sample pack is Seattle-based werewolves who have set up an LLC indie game development company. I had a pack of Iron Masters in Denver in my last WoD game that grew and sold weed!
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May 13, 2016 20:01
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I think viewing your Original Naming as more of a burden imposed by the Exarchs than your 'Real' name is probably for the best. It's still slightly iffy but much less iffy than insisting everyone's birth name is their Real Name or whatever. If you wanted to sidestep the issue you could always say that your sympathetic name is whatever your name was just before you Awakened, representing the last chance the Lie had to harsh your pattern.
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May 13, 2016 20:05
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Kurieg posted:It's more to the point of an alpha that can't produce pups is usually a signal that the pack needs to break up or a new breeding pair needs to take over (since wolf packs are usually extended families the alpha doesn't just take over breeding duties, that's probably his mom) Too late, all wolves in my head are basically your nosy, pestering parents. Forever.
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May 13, 2016 20:49
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Demon question: suborned Infrastructure is "unhooked" from the God-Machine, but how disconnected can it be exactly? If it's something mobile or at least reasonably possible to relocate, like a car or a phone booth, does removing it from its original context destroy its ability to function even as an Aether generator? Oh, and I was reading the Chronicles of Darkness book and noticed a bunch of references to a "Fate" trait that isn't actually explained anywhere. Found some discussion noting that it's a scrapped aspect of CofD that managed to stick around in an embarrassingly major way. How was it supposed to work, though? I get the impression that it's meant to give characters an end point other than "eaten by night terrors", but then there's that angel that's vulnerable to people who have recently "fulfilled their Fate".
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May 16, 2016 11:43
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Alright, I've read Awakening 2E and overall really like it. It's been written by people who both enjoy and understand the material, and it completely shows - a lot of stuff in there leaves you thinking "why wasn't that there in the first place?" when you read it, which I think is the best place to be for updates and changes to a game like Mage. The biggest thematic disconnect in 2E's design is, like I've said before, the paradox rules - that the path to unfettered power lies in containing rather than loosing paradoxes doesn't really make any sense, and internal paradoxes seem real easy to get rid of. If I run 2E directly that's what I'd change first, and if I played 2E directly I think the Storyteller would have to do some really contrived poo poo to get me to ever not contain a paradox unless that paradox's dicepool was, like, 2. Also, like I've noted before, it's dumb that the Seer Orders are explicitly able to match the Pentacle Orders in the Pentacle's area of specialty and have an almost categorically superior unique merit, it's dumb that the book always shies away from telling you that the Adamantine Arrow fights the enemies of the Pentacle directly, the Egregore merit is still lame and largely unrelated to the Mysterium's actual mystery initiations, etc. I will fight anyone who disagrees but we've been over these. The spellcasting system is really interesting - there's clearly been a deliberate effort to completely detach it from any of the nWoD's normal resolution mechanisms, which has ironically made it the one subsystem in the entire line of books which actually cleaves completely to the basic ideas underlying nWoD rolls in the first place: you figure out what you're doing, assess all the penalties, and then either get no successes, one success, or an exceptional success, the end. It actually took me a while to realize that rolling four successes on a non-Praxis was no better or worse than scoring one success, because even a spell's primary factor was just a function of your Arcanum rating + voluntary penalties rather than a direct count of your rolled successes, but I was satisfied to do so because of how elegantly consistent it is with everything else going on. The all-or-nothing nature of Withstand and the fact that the Roll vs. Roll Clash of Wills mechanic leads me to suspect that Mage 2E is as rocket-taggy as the other 2E games at the higher ends of character power, but this may well be preferable to keeping track of ablative shields of whatever kind and also might not be true - I'd have to do more thinking and hypotheticals and things. Hell, let's do one now: I've got Gnosis 3 and some Arcanum at 3 and I want to disable you by some means or other, but you have a 5 in your relevant Attribute BUT I've got a 5 in an Order-favored rote skill. To ensure that my base Potency 3 is actually as high as 6, I need to eat a -6 penalty which cancels out my Mudra bonus completely and leaves me rolling a 'naked' 6 dice, even a single success on which ensures my victory. Of course, if you're using any kind of spell or superpower which would logically prevent my success, we have to Clash, which is effectively a coin flip, and if you're a vampire using Resilience or something while the withstand trait is Stamina then I'm really in trouble... I think at the end of the day what would benefit this the most is not any change to the resolution mechanics themselves, all of which pass a spot check, but some kind of explicit lag in consequences setting in or pause in which the subject of a spell can respond and invent countermeasures or something. Maybe a Magic: the Gathering stack? That way there can be some kind of on-the-spot back and forth rather than a "shouldna forgot your ward against the specific thing I'm doing". Minor spellcasting stuff: Compelling and Shielding justify themselves, it's awkward that Veiling is two Practices in one, it's inexcusable that Fraying and Unraveling are each two Practices in one. The ironclad bashing at 3, lethal at 4 progression is particularly bizarre given that it's in the same chapter as the creative thaumaturgy rules which explicitly tell you that it's perfectly okay for someone to come up with a spell effect that seems available 'too early' to the spells already in the book. What on earth is wrong with producing pointy rather than smashy (or smashy in the same way a baseball bat is smashy) telekinetic force at Disciple? If it's Ruling to move liquids, and Weaving to phase change, why couldn't you summon a stalactite directly into someone's skull with Matter 3? I'm really happy to see that the model 2E uses for Time magic is almost identical to the model my group came up with a year or two back for our own houserules. However, I don't like the prevalence of time travel in Time magic, mostly because it seems like a pain to play out. Time spells should definitely involve futzing around with the static, left-in-our-wake past in order to alter elements of the dynamic, ever-moving present, but an "I cast a spell such that I never opened that door" takes less time and spotlight than "I go back in time. Okay, when I see the door, I..." on average. There's not too much of a functional difference here and obviously there's always room for a "we all go back ten years" storyline but the default mode of changing your environment with Time should probably happen at the same one-and-done pace as the other Arcana boast. Like I said before, I'm dissatisfied that the Practices aren't interpreted really strictly, because I think getting around their limitations (the principal limitation being that, before you get Making, you have to use your environment in your magic) is one of the most fun parts of playing Mage. Thunderbolt should specify that the room gets a bit colder each time you throw it or whatever! As is there is attention paid, but there are still instances where it feels more like "well, X is stronger than Y, so it's a dot higher" rather than an extrapolation on a matching-nouns-with-verbs game. Anyway, that's some mostly offhand commentary, I'll make more posts as they occur to me. Overall, Mage 2E is a definite success and I'll definitely be getting supplements and otherwise following its growth. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 06:09 on May 21, 2016 |
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