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homullus posted:Adding "trying to make up for it later" is moving the goalposts. Your rant was "nobody ever does lovely things for reasons in Star Wars, therefore gently caress you gently caress off gently caress gently caress Imperial characters gently caress" . . . you even said "doing bad things for reasons they felt were justified" wasn't even attempted. Lando is Exhibit A in the case against your rant. There's also Obi-Wan murdering surrendering pilots and Anakin executing Dooku and Mace Windu trying to kill Palpatine
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May 13, 2016 15:56
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homullus posted:Adding "trying to make up for it later" is moving the goalposts. Your rant was "nobody ever does lovely things for reasons in Star Wars, therefore gently caress you gently caress off gently caress gently caress Imperial characters gently caress" . . . you even said "doing bad things for reasons they felt were justified" wasn't even attempted. Lando is Exhibit A in the case against your rant. There's also Obi-Wan murdering surrendering pilots and Anakin executing Dooku and Mace Windu trying to kill Palpatine Hold up. So your main examples are 1) the big twist in Empire Strikes Back that leads to Lando joining the good guys and explicitly becoming a Rebel, and 2) Anakin actually literally turning evil. I don't even remember the pilot murder thing. This is your proof for how Star Wars is totally about HARD PEOPLE MAKING HARD DECISIONS.
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May 13, 2016 16:04
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Splicer posted:I'd also like to add that time Han Solo straight up murdered a dude in a bar to the list. That was pre-emptive self-defense.
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May 13, 2016 16:07
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ProfessorCirno posted:Hold up. Let's say that you are 100% right, that Star Wars isn't about that. So? If some rando wants to play a hard-boiled nazis in uniform fighting the system campaign because they saw Valkyrie and want to role-play as Stauffenberg, who loving cares? It just sounds like you are getting mad at people for playing a make-believe game wrong.
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May 13, 2016 16:10
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ProfessorCirno posted:Hold up. No, it's just my proof that you're full of poo poo on this point, and the quote above is the proof that you're moving the goalposts again and doubling down, because you aren't willing to admit to being wrong, I guess? Lando's arc is exactly the sort of thing that people were talking about doing with some Imperial campaigns, all around your fucky-gently caress rant against them. You've conveniently left out Mace Windu, the embodiment of the peace-and-justice guardian Jedi, attempting extrajudicial execution because of reasons. Star Wars is not totally about HARD PEOPLE MAKING HARD DECISIONS. Hyperbolic SA forums poster ProfessorCirno is demonstrably wrong to say that Star Wars does not even attempt that kind of subject.
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May 13, 2016 16:15
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e: ^Mmmh,nope, actually, you are the one who's full of poo poo here: Mace Windu tries to kill Palpatine after Palpatine has murdered the three Jedi Masters Windu came in with resisting arrest and was trying to murder him as well.Finster Dexter posted:Let's say that you are 100% right, that Star Wars isn't about that. Playing Stauffenberg is a thing. Playing as a valiant member of the Waffen SS fighting some dirty commies on the Eastern Front or dealing with French terrorists plots is another, and the stuff catpiss stories are made off. Especially when you consider that a significant fringe of the Star Wars fandom has an actual bona fide hard on for the Empire and actually root for them.
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May 13, 2016 16:17
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homullus posted:No, it's just my proof that you're full of poo poo on this point, and the quote above is the proof that you're moving the goalposts again and doubling down, because you aren't willing to admit to being wrong, I guess? Lando's arc is exactly the sort of thing that people were talking about doing with some Imperial campaigns, all around your fucky-gently caress rant against them. You've conveniently left out Mace Windu, the embodiment of the peace-and-justice guardian Jedi, attempting extrajudicial execution because of reasons. What are you even talking about at this point? Seriously, what point of mine are you trying to refute here? You're screaming about goalposts moving again and again - so where were they originally? Finster Dexter posted:Let's say that you are 100% right, that Star Wars isn't about that. Naw, they're nazis, they can gently caress off. Oh no, Cirno's going against the nazis!  at this thread doing exactly what I said it would, descending into nazi apologia.
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May 13, 2016 16:19
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ProfessorCirno posted:What are you even talking about at this point? Seriously, what point of mine are you trying to refute here? You're screaming about goalposts moving again and again - so where were they originally? It is so hard to remember one's own posts from a day ago, right? ProfessorCirno posted:Like, Star Wars really wasn't/isn't a setting where "I did a bad thing but for reasons dammit" flies. Or, to be frank, is even really attempted.
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May 13, 2016 16:22
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Finster Dexter posted:Let's say that you are 100% right, that Star Wars isn't about that. This. My short lived ISB campaign was focused on basically playing the Mossad agents from Munich, except in this case instead of being a bunch of Jewish Olympian hostages murdered in a plane, it was the Death Star. They were doing black ops, off the official record, no real backup or political weight to throw around, and their missions were always classified to the local Imperial garrisons. It was sold to them as pure propaganda - rebel (lack of capitalization is important here) terrorists blew up a massive space habitat after commandeering its weapons systems to commit a heinous war crime by blowing up Alderaan. That was the public line, and some of the PCs believed it, some doubted it, and one knew it was all bullshit but didn't care. As the campaign progressed and they were forced to make some Jack Bauer type decisions to get the information they needed to pursue the terrorists, some of their views might have changed. Either way, you're getting super angry about people playing Imperials in this game, because apparently that makes us all racist fascists. I guess all those 90s gamers that played TIE Fighter and its expansions or chose the Germans in Day of Defeat or Wolfenstein Enemy Territory were all Nazis in real life, too, and you should be angry at them and hate them all, too.  tl;dr: shutupshutupshutup
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May 13, 2016 16:24
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Iceclaw posted:Playing Stauffenberg is a thing. Playing as a valiant member of the Waffen SS fighting some dirty commies on the Eastern Front or dealing with French terrorists plots is another, and the stuff catpiss stories are made off. Especially when you consider that a significant fringe of the Star Wars fandom has an actual bona fide hard on for the Empire and actually root for them. That significant fringe is still fringe af and I think this is a case of internet-induced reductionism. Someone met a guy once that thought Hitler/Palpatine was right, and he wore a stormtrooper t-shirt. That got bandied about the internet and now anyone who wears a stormtrooper t-shirt has a hard on for nazis? Cats are pretty boring IRL, but judging by the internet cat videos they seem like the funniest creatures on four legs. Same thing with this weird belief that "significant numbers of fans" want to gently caress Vader or something.
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May 13, 2016 16:24
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Fuzz posted:tl;dr: shutupshutupshutup
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May 13, 2016 16:25
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ProfessorCirno posted:What are you even talking about at this point? Seriously, what point of mine are you trying to refute here? You're screaming about goalposts moving again and again - so where were they originally? Yeah, gently caress this loving nazi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claus_von_Stauffenberg#Pre-war_misgivings
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May 13, 2016 16:27
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ProfessorCirno posted:What are you even talking about at this point? Seriously, what point of mine are you trying to refute here? You're screaming about goalposts moving again and again - so where were they originally? "I could see why people would work for an evil-force/do something bad even if they are otherwise good people" = "The empire wasn't as bad people make it out to be #Majorityrightsactivist #spacetrainsranontime."
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May 13, 2016 16:27
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Finster Dexter posted:That significant fringe is still fringe af and I think this is a case of internet-induced reductionism. Someone met a guy once that thought Hitler/Palpatine was right, and he wore a stormtrooper t-shirt. That got bandied about the internet and now anyone who wears a stormtrooper t-shirt has a hard on for nazis? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PN_CP4SuoTU Feel free to browse the comment on that one. Here's a few extracts: quote:This is what happenes when the rebel scum isnt protected by this stupid plot armor they had in the movies quote:finnaly the rebels got wrecked quote:It's good to see TIEs win for once. Star Wars is way too hard on them. quote:otaKing 77077, you are a absolute genius. And, for once the good guys win. Once again, I do not share Prof. Cirno point of view, you can see my previous posts. I just think that's a topic you, the rethorical "you", should be treading lightly not to end in a catpiss story about that time someone played with a bunch of actual fascists.
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May 13, 2016 16:32
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By the reductionist logic at play here, the American military is a fascist occupying force and anyone working at any level in the US government or having any sort of American patriotism is liable in Cirno's books. That kid waving am American flag on July 4th? HE loving SUPPORTS DRONE STRIKES ON CIVILIAN TARGETS AND TORTURING POWS. This is literally the logic Al Qaeda/ISIL/the IRA/Hammas/practically every terrorist organization ever use as their justification to attack civilian targets.
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May 13, 2016 16:32
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Finster Dexter posted:Yeah, gently caress this loving nazi quote:Activities in 1939–1940 Yeah, no. Stauffenberg did try to kill Hitler, but he was still a hateable piece of poo poo. e: While I'm at it, here's a bit of enlightment re: what he thought of as necessary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_of_the_Wehrmacht#Invasion_of_Poland Iceclaw fucked around with this message at 16:39 on May 13, 2016 |
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May 13, 2016 16:34
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Fuzz posted:By the reductionist logic at play here, the American military is a fascist occupying force Definitely,
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May 13, 2016 16:35
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Man I can't wait for Snoke to build the Great Space Wall. #MaketheGalaxyGreatAgain
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May 13, 2016 16:36
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Iceclaw posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PN_CP4SuoTU You're using youtube comments to make broad generalizations about Star Wars fans. YOUTUBE. COMMENTS. Iceclaw posted:Yeah, no. Stauffenberg did try to kill Hitler, but he was still a hateable piece of poo poo. You are 100% right and I agree. I'm not trying to say he was a good guy or anything. The only point I'm trying to make is that there is room for someone playing Star Wars: The RPG to look at that and think "hey, wouldn't it fun to try and assassinate Palpatine as an Imperial officer" without them automatically being a loving dyed in the wool nazi.
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May 13, 2016 16:38
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Star Wars is explicitly about good versus evil. It's always been very black and white in its morality. If you want to bring shades of grey to the table and play whatever, that's fine, more power to you, but the long and the short of it is that no, they are not going to provide official support for playing the explicitly evil side. That's not what Star Wars is about and never has been what Star Wars is about.
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May 13, 2016 16:38
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You know, when I see someone wanting to run an Imperial campaign, I just see it as someone wanting to run as tactical operators with the big toys instead of roleplaying the Ostfront. How about something fun instead like a game where you are a bunch of working class stiffs from Nar Shaddaa who watch all those news stories of Bounty Hunters and decide to start a reality tv show. You get one of your friends to be the actual Bounty Hunter, without any experience at all, because he can look and talk to the camera and start doing jobs. Hilarity ensues when you guys mess up and scramble to save the lovely camcorder device you spend your hard earned credits on as you are all live and see how bounty hunting isn't easy? I really want to get that Bounty Hunter sourcebook when it gets out.
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May 13, 2016 16:42
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Finster Dexter posted:You're using youtube comments to make broad generalizations about Star Wars fans. Want me to mine all kind of star wars related fora for the same kind of drivel? It won't be any different. quote:You are 100% right and I agree. I'm not trying to say he was a good guy or anything. The only point I'm trying to make is that there is room for someone playing Star Wars: The RPG to look at that and think "hey, wouldn't it fun to try and assassinate Palpatine as an Imperial officer" without them automatically being a loving dyed in the wool nazi. And as I, personnaly said, I consider that a valid idea, one that can be super interesting. It's just way too easy to slide into some much less defensible thing, same as every potentially offensive subject in RPG. Iceclaw fucked around with this message at 16:45 on May 13, 2016 |
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May 13, 2016 16:42
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Iceclaw posted:Want me to mine all kind of star wars related fora for the same kind of drivel? It won't be any different. Iceclaw posted:And as I, personnaly said, I consider that a valid idea, one that can be super interesting. It's just way too easy to slide into some much less defensible thing, same as every potentially offensive subject in RPG.
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May 13, 2016 16:48
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Ramba Ral posted:You know, when I see someone wanting to run an Imperial campaign, I just see it as someone wanting to run as tactical operators with the big toys instead of roleplaying the Ostfront. Holy poo poo this sounds hilarious and awesome
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May 13, 2016 16:49
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So do you think the Empire is like Australia and sends asylum seekers from Hutt space to prison camps on Tatooine?
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May 13, 2016 16:52
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Finster Dexter posted:I'm not doubting the existence of this stuff, but I disagree that it represents anything close to a significant percentage of "Star Wars fans". I want to agree with you here, but I think you underestimate how much nerds can be lovely individuals at time. Remember, it's the hobby that coined the term "murder hobo". See also the Clean Wermarcht mythos. Even it's it's a minority, it's still to many. So... Just be sure of whom you are playing with, and then, go nuts, is all I say. Iceclaw fucked around with this message at 17:03 on May 13, 2016 |
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May 13, 2016 16:59
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Having played on star wars forum rp sites when I was younger that were pretty dang big (chaos had like, 1500 unique members), like 3/4ths of people who played there played dark siders of a kind. The only reason they didn't completely smother the light side factions is that every few months someone would attempt a coup to become the big guy in the bad guys, and then they'd split and suddenly there are 6 dark side factions who hate each other as much or more than they hate the light side faction, which was amusing. But yeah, the whole forum was full of imperial lovers who thought they were in the right and justified and that kind of thing. It was crazy looking back on it, full of justifications for why slavery wasn't that bad and stuff. It's a more significant amount of loud star wars fans than it should be. This isn't casual fans, but the kind who will rp it and play games of it and stuff.
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May 13, 2016 17:19
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3/4 of 1500? so, like 375? Out of how many millions of Star Wars fans? You're still talking about less than .001 percent. Yes there are cringeworthy motherfuckers out there, but let's not lose perspective: Star Wars is cool and good.
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May 13, 2016 17:37
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Your math's backwards there. Still a small percentage, but a present one.
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May 13, 2016 17:39
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MollyMetroid posted:Your math's backwards there. Still a small percentage, but a present one. Even if it's 5% that's still not "significant" and not worth generalizing Star Wars fans as nazi-lovers.
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May 13, 2016 17:42
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Finster Dexter posted:Even if it's 5% that's still not "significant" and not worth generalizing Star Wars fans as nazi-lovers. I mean it's more people than have probably read Traditional Games. I'm not saying it's a majority of star wars fans, I even called out that it's just a lot of the more vocal fans who come to forums for stuff like this who are. The mega nerdy ones. Star Wars is in fact cool and good, but the fans re not all great, and there's a reason some of us dislike that so many goons are obsessed with the empire and wanting to play as them, since being Nazis is kinda weird.
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May 13, 2016 17:49
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MollyMetroid posted:Star Wars is explicitly about good versus evil. It's always been very black and white in its morality. If you want to bring shades of grey to the table and play whatever, that's fine, more power to you, but the long and the short of it is that no, they are not going to provide official support for playing the explicitly evil side. That's not what Star Wars is about and never has been what Star Wars is about. This is accurate and correct. They'll never make an official book for it, ever. You can still use the system to run a game, if you want, without feeling like you're a horrible Nazi, however.
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May 13, 2016 17:50
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I never said ALL STAR WARS FANS ARE NAZIS, I said I was leery of people who were gung ho about playing as the Empire for the same reason I'm leery of people who are gung ho about collecting WWII memorabilia, and that a lot of Empire fans tend to get real gross about trying to excuse what was literally an evil slave holding murderous genocidal tyrannical dictatorship. The responses to "maybe don't play as Evil Space Nazis" have, extremely predictably, turned into people trying to excuse what was literally an evil slave holding murderous genocidal tyrannical dictatorship and point out that maybe they're not all that bad. Star Wars is not a game about HARD MEN MAKING HARD DECISIONS. It's a game about capital letter Good fighting capital letter Evil. The Empire were literally meant to be nazis. The newest movie knew that a lot of Empire fans somehow missed that or ignored it, so they went in and made even more comparisons to the nazis! They're never the Good Guys. They're never good guys. The only good people connected to the Empire in all the movies are the people who leave it to join the Rebellion. Any time someone tries to do a bad thing for "good reason" they are pretty much instantly proven wrong, and either repent and try to fix it, or they're now the bad guy. It has never lead to positive results! Like, if you want to be a group of stormtroopers who realize how lovely things are and ditch, sure. That's fantastic! Hell, it's the biography of a rather main character in the newest movie! The problem is when it turns into "well maybe the Empire wasn't THAT bad. Why not just play as stormtroopers killing of the rebel terrorists?" Because at that point you aren't just straying from the movies, you're flatly contradicting them - and again, that's the point where I get real leery, because yeah, I'm gonna be leery of someone who looks at Star Wars and goes "ok, but what if I play as the nazis???"
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May 13, 2016 22:04
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Special Modifications is a pretty good splat book. I've got a couple players really salivating to dive into item creation and the section on building exciting scenes for slicers was really helpful.
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May 13, 2016 22:38
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ProfessorCirno posted:The problem is when it turns into "well maybe the Empire wasn't THAT bad. Why not just play as stormtroopers killing of the rebel terrorists?"
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May 13, 2016 23:13
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No one in the thread said that. But that's a point of view that exist in the fandom.
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May 13, 2016 23:21
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Maybe have your characters confront a human rights violation and realize theyre bad guys so you join the rebels and just play Age of Rebellion campaign. All roads lead to AoR
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May 13, 2016 23:58
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If you want to do a shades of gray, empire vs. rebellion game where neither side is explicitly good or evil, reskin your game as being Legend of Galactic Heroes. The space wizards can be the Terraists or something.
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May 14, 2016 00:16
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Tendales posted:If you want to do a shades of gray, empire vs. rebellion game where neither side is explicitly good or evil, reskin your game as being Legend of Galactic Heroes. That would be legitimately super fun, and would work really well with AoR.
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May 14, 2016 00:19
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Not Keyser Soze posted:Special Modifications is a pretty good splat book. I've got a couple players really salivating to dive into item creation and the section on building exciting scenes for slicers was really helpful. Yeah, I'm really hoping to get involved in crafting. Seems like you could make some really good weapons that way, and more importantly customize them to your specialization and playstyle.
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