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The 90s X-Men animated series is better than all 5 X-Men films put together. I'll probably see Apocalypse this week or next week and will confirm if adding that to the pile manages to make it better than the animated series.
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May 16, 2016 13:20
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irlZaphod posted:I'll probably see Apocalypse this week or next week and will confirm if adding that to the pile manages to make it better than the animated series. This could be your review if it's bad.
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May 16, 2016 13:30
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DrProsek posted:Or at least demote them to supporting casts. X-Men movies should really be about all the kids/young adults/younger-than-50-year-olds on the team, not the centuries old geezers. They're paying them too much to just be supporting. Metalshark posted:*She adds nothing to the film, as the action scene to rescue her is Bobby and Magneto. I don't recall the first 3 X-films well enough to say if Anna Paquin could have been a good Rogue, but I think at this point she should be recast if they decide to include Rogue down the line. A Gambit film and a 90s X-Men film on the horizon makes me happy though, as a terrible person. She's whiny and afraid of everything the entire series of movies and doesn't even get a redemption moment or anything. I guess DoFP was meant to be that. Does she actually have her Total Recall moment in that with a bunch of powers?
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May 16, 2016 13:32
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Didn't Rogue have her powers removed in X3? It's been that long since I saw that I can't remember, and even from what I do recall, the scene was pretty unclear as to whether it had happened or not.
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May 16, 2016 13:34
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The worst thing about Rogue in the X-Men films is that she willingly takes the cure at the end of X3.
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May 16, 2016 13:35
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Wheat Loaf posted:Didn't Rogue have her powers removed in X3? It's been that long since I saw that I can't remember, and even from what I do recall, the scene was pretty unclear as to whether it had happened or not. Yeah but from the whole Magneto thing at the end I think you're supposed to believe that it wasn't actually permanent.
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May 16, 2016 13:36
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It's why the 90s cartoon gave her the full suite of superpowers even though most audiences would have no idea why she could fly or whatever. Rogue who can only steal people's energy is a lame character, who has only one setting: moping about how she can never touch anybody. She never gets to do anything fun and she really has nothing she can add to a fight scene. Full powers Rogue can and does mope too, but she can also fly and throw cars around.
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May 16, 2016 13:51
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The 90s cartoon gave her the Ms. Marvel powerset because that's what she had in the comics. They even explained it in one episode with flashbacks to the incident like in Avengers Annual 10. Also her arc in X-Men 1 and 2 was really good and one of the best things about those films. Who gives a poo poo if she's useful in a fight?
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May 16, 2016 13:52
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I don't know what her arc was in X2 because it's apparently so irrelevant it's not actually in the Wikipedia summary of the movie.
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May 16, 2016 14:06
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Remember when Rogue lost her powers in X-Treme X-Men after she was stabbed by Vargas, then she had Sunfire's powers for a while after Lady Deathstrike cut his legs off? That was years ago but I have no idea where she went after that. Does she have Carol Danvers's powers again, or is she just back to her absorption abilities? I have honestly not kept track. I think the nineties cartoon is why I've never really been able to get into the X-Men post-2000; I read and enjoyed New X-Men by Morrison and Astonishing by Whedon and Cassaday, but beyond that, they've not been my thing (even though I know there's been a ton of good stuff done with the characters), because the cartoon team were "my" X-Men, and they're pretty far removed from that now.
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May 16, 2016 14:07
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X-O posted:I don't think that's the problem. It's more the terrible animation, voice acting, and stories. Don't pretend you don't read the dialogue in every Wolverine comic in the voice from the cartoon
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May 16, 2016 14:34
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:Don't pretend you don't read the dialogue in every Wolverine comic in the voice from the cartoon Actually, I can't ever hear him as anything but Steve Blum.
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May 16, 2016 14:38
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They should skip the Dark Phoenix Saga and do the Brood Saga because it's almost as good, but doesn't get nearly as much love. Obviously they wouldn't be able to use Carol to become Binary, but it gives literally everyone on the team something to do, plus you can introduce new, younger versions of Kitty and Colossus. And the Starjammers, I loving want the Starjammers in a movie.
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May 16, 2016 14:59
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Wheat Loaf posted:Hey. Gambit one of a kind and you be crazy not to look forward to he movie, frère. If you don't like a Gambit movie - It not Gambit, it you.
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May 16, 2016 15:15
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Travis343 posted:Full powers Rogue can and does mope too, but she can also fly and throw cars around. Imagine seeing someone actually recreating the Ms. Marvel origin episode in live action. Just incredibly high pitched screaming and wanton destruction. From memory, doesn't Rogue go straight through multiple floors of the X-Mansion in that episode, leaving several of the team looking through the hole going 'drat.'? I can't find it on Youtube, sadly. Channing Tatum would still have great chemistry with her. The thought of him in Gambit's 90s duds is also wonderful...  https://youtu.be/dcTr3TqGaio?t=2m23s (I really want Scumbit and 90s Rogue in a movie.)
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May 16, 2016 15:44
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X-O posted:Congrats on being likely being the only person on the planet that believes that. Young Avengers was great and a movie adaptation should be made of that yesterday. It's basically a confluence of everything currently popular in movie media. God that run ruled.
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May 16, 2016 16:36
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Aphrodite posted:I don't know what her arc was in X2 because it's apparently so irrelevant it's not actually in the Wikipedia summary of the movie.
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May 16, 2016 16:47
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Toxxupation posted:Young Avengers was great and a movie adaptation should be made of that yesterday. It's basically a confluence of everything currently popular in movie media. God that run ruled. This would be awesome. If you kill off Vision in Infinity War (hawkeye too maybe), you could use the first arc as a good basis for the movie. Might not be a bad way to use Kang in the MCU either.
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May 16, 2016 16:52
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irlZaphod posted:I, too, read Wikipedia summaries to learn about character arcs in films. Sorry, let me illustrate the intermediate steps I left out. I don't remember her doing anything at all in the second movie. This is probably because you have overblown her story arc, as you are wont to do. So I went to the best place to get a summary of a movie's plot beats. "Surely 'one of the best things about the movies' is important enough to include in a plot summary" I think to myself. I also briefly think about the Airplane Shirley joke. The only thing the summary includes about Rogue is when she travels in various groups. This confirms my suspicion that Rogue didn't do poo poo, sucks, and was a waste.
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May 16, 2016 17:14
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Kingtheninja posted:This would be awesome. If you kill off Vision in Infinity War (hawkeye too maybe), you could use the first arc as a good basis for the movie. Might not be a bad way to use Kang in the MCU either. Kang's tied up with FF, if I remember correctly.
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May 16, 2016 17:18
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Wikipedia is probably the worst place to go to get plot beats from a film. And just because it's one of the best things from the first two films for me, does not in any way imply that it's some sort of major happening.
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May 16, 2016 17:21
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Toxxupation posted:Kang's tied up with FF, if I remember correctly. Continually mystifying that Kang is tied up with the FF entirely on the basis that he and Rama-Tut are the same person, but Marvel apparently retains the rights to Immortus. I can't understand how they can share the rights to use (at least) Quicksilver but Kang is off-limits when he's far more of an Avengers villain than an FF one (I actually think Kang would be a better big bad for the MCU than Thanos, because I think of him as an Avengers arch-enemy, whereas I think of Thanos as an "event" bad guy, if that makes sense).
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May 16, 2016 17:22
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irlZaphod posted:Wikipedia is probably the worst place to go to get plot beats from a film, hth. But aligns regardless with the multi-page autistically curated summaries on other sites, huge prick. She was put in the first movie for the Magneto power stealing plot and then they had no loving idea what to do with her in X2. It's time for the 3rd act where everything happens. Rogue, stay in the plane. By making the 3rd about a cure they at least found something for her to do again. Aphrodite fucked around with this message at 17:27 on May 16, 2016 |
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May 16, 2016 17:25
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Wheat Loaf posted:
They couldn't, actually. Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch were co-owned by FOX and Marvel, and FOX was ready to sue Marvel for the rights until they worked out a deal where Marvel keeps SW and FOX keeps Quicksilver. That's why Quicksilver's an only child in the X-Men movies and why Quicksilver gets killed off in AoU, because the deal made it so he could only be in one movie where he had to die at the end of it.
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May 16, 2016 17:30
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Quicksilver has 2 sisters in the X-Men continuity, if the Rogue cut counts. One if not. Neither are probably Wanda though.
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May 16, 2016 17:31
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The problem with Rogue is the same problem with every superhero whose "power" is the ability to steal other superhero's powers (you even saw it with Sylar and Peter in Heroes, for instance). Either they break the power curve because they're just straight-up better than everybody else or it's like Rogue in the original X-Men trilogy where they're made so weak that they're basically ineffectual. It's a really binary state and thus virtually impossible to do right, and you see that even with Rogue in other media, where they sorta punt her leech powers and just make her a Generic Superhero that Also Can Do Leech Stuff when the plot demands it. Basically what I'm saying is that the power to steal powers is a dumb power to have, cause it makes the hero either "literally everyone else, but better" or "a literal lovely copy of everybody else". NieR Occomata fucked around with this message at 17:36 on May 16, 2016 |
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May 16, 2016 17:34
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Aphrodite posted:She was put in the first movie for the Magneto power stealing plot and then they had no loving idea what to do with her in X2. It's time for the 3rd act where everything happens. Rogue, stay in the plane. By making the 3rd about a cure they at least found something for her to do again. In the 2nd film, you see her learning to control her powers, including a moment where she kisses Bobby and exhales ice breath 3rd film completely throws all that out the window and she takes the gay cure Continue being a gigantic moron though.
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May 16, 2016 17:35
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Toxxupation posted:The problem with Rogue is the same problem with every superhero whose "power" is the ability to steal other superhero's powers (you even saw it with Sylar and Peter in Heroes, for instance). Either they break the power curve because they're just straight-up better than everybody else or it's like Rogue in the original X-Men trilogy where they're made so weak that they're basically ineffectual. It's a really binary state and thus virtually impossible to do right, and you see that even with Rogue in other media, where they sorta punt her leech powers and just make her a Generic Superhero that Also Can Do Leech Stuff when the plot demands it. The only time I've ever seen it really work was the version of Calvin Rankin (Mimic) in the original run of Exiles, where they put clear limits on his abilities and did it in such a way that he was generally incentivized to copy powers of people who weren't his teammates and thus didn't overshadow them. He was still among the strongest people on that team, but his abilities being half-strength meant he never beat/overshadowed anyone by copying their gimmick directly, and only being able to copy 5 power sets at a time gave him versatility without just being able to deus ex machina everything or grow in power unsustainably. You always had a fairly good sense of what he could do, and while he could adapt to absorb neat new powers you knew he'd be giving up something meaningful to do it (since his mimicked powers were already good and IIRC he required prolonged exposure to mimic an ability permanently). He falls into the "lovely copy" category, but it work both because even a poor copy of the people he's copying is quite strong, and because the story puts him in circumstances where he's primarily working with people whose abilities he's not inclined to copy so as a reader you're not constantly making a direct comparison to his teammates (and judging him as either better/worse "dude who does X"). Though even here you can see the implied problem imposing certain storytelling limitations, as you've got to studiously avoid having the character have prolonged exposure to anyone whose powers would be world-breaking even at half-strength (or ensure those powers come with unpalatable side-effects). E: or anyone whose powers are overly broad even if they're not world-breaking at half-strength- i.e. meeting a non-homicidal Hyperion for a protracted period of time would beg the question of why he wouldn't choose to drop Colossus/Cyclops/whoever is giving him flight in exchange for knock-off superman powers and the ability to pick up some crazy poo poo later. LGD fucked around with this message at 18:34 on May 16, 2016 |
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May 16, 2016 18:10
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Toxxupation posted:Basically what I'm saying is that the power to steal powers is a dumb power to have, cause it makes the hero either "literally everyone else, but better" or "a literal lovely copy of everybody else". Being the latter was kinda what made Rogue interesting though. It's not about her being able to copy superpowers, but about her hurting anyone she touches and she can't control it, and her best-case scenario is to choose to be a weapon rather than have others exploit her as one. But you can't really get that out of a 2-hour movie with a dozen other characters and Wolverine is sucking up all the attention from everyone anyway. And then sucking up even more attention in the later movies. All Wolverine, All the Time. That's why I would be way more into the X-Men as a live-action TV series instead of movies. More room to explore characters and plotlines instead of having to cram it all down into cliffnotes for every movie. It certainly doesn't help that the movies really feel like they're spinning their wheels instead of actually having growth and progression. Just setpieces and bastardizations of major comic storylines where someone said "Hey wouldn't it be cool if we did this thing for a movie?"
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May 16, 2016 18:30
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I think what I'd do to fix Rogue would be basically making her Captain Marvel (person who can absorb energy and then amplify it into super-powered blasts) except have the whole bit where she's gotta be in physical contact with the source of the energy she's leeching. So it's not like Captain Marvel where it's "Shoot me with your optic blasts, Cyclops, and I will make it even more powerful!" but more like "I'm gonna have to literally start killing this person to unleash my powers". There's even an explanation with the whole "inheriting Carol Danvers' psyche" thing.
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May 16, 2016 18:33
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Toxxupation posted:I think what I'd do to fix Rogue would be basically making her Captain Marvel (person who can absorb energy and then amplify it into super-powered blasts) except have the whole bit where she's gotta be in physical contact with the source of the energy she's leeching. So it's not like Captain Marvel where it's "Shoot me with your optic blasts, Cyclops, and I will make it even more powerful!" but more like "I'm gonna have to literally start killing this person to unleash my powers". There's even an explanation with the whole "inheriting Carol Danvers' psyche" thing. Isn't that basically Bishop?
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May 16, 2016 18:38
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But Rogue does supposedly have drawbacks to her powers though. She's suppose to absorb memories and personalities along side the powers which can produce dangerous unintended side effects and makes them ill-suited for casual use. Absorbing the bad guy's powers is a huge risk if his persona has a chance to override your own. And potentially loving up your head makes it a weapon of last resort. The movies only lightly touched on this idea in the first one and then never mentioned it again. The troublesome complexities and lingering trauma of Rogue's powers were never properly explored.
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May 16, 2016 18:39
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Cocks Cable posted:But Rogue does supposedly have drawbacks to her powers though. She's suppose to absorb memories and personalities along side the powers which can produce dangerous unintended side effects and makes them ill-suited for casual use. Absorbing the bad guy's powers is a huge risk if his persona has a chance to override your own. And potentially loving up your head makes it a weapon of last resort. The movies only lightly touched on this idea in the first one and then never mentioned it again. The troublesome complexities and lingering trauma of Rogue's powers were never properly explored. Just remembered that fight in an X-book in an AvX tie-in. In a fight between Rogue vs. She-Hulk, Falcon, Moon Knight, and an Iron Man suit. Rogue only has true difficulty with... Moon Knight because he drives her insane. Rogue is strong when she lets loose but yeah, side effects.
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May 16, 2016 19:01
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Toxxupation posted:They couldn't, actually. Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch were co-owned by FOX and Marvel, and FOX was ready to sue Marvel for the rights until they worked out a deal where Marvel keeps SW and FOX keeps Quicksilver. That's why Quicksilver's an only child in the X-Men movies and why Quicksilver gets killed off in AoU, because the deal made it so he could only be in one movie where he had to die at the end of it. This sounds like some real bullshit, homie
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May 16, 2016 19:24
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yeah, Whedon said Pietro died because he thought killing Hawkeye would be too predictable and because everyone assumed new characters like Pietro were automatically safe.
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May 16, 2016 19:33
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omg chael crash posted:This sounds like some real bullshit, homie Yeah, I parroted that from someone else I heard. Well, if that split isn't true then killing off Quicksilver in AoU sure was some dumb bullshit, then. Man, that movie was not loving good.
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May 16, 2016 19:37
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The split is not true but the fact that Quicksilver was appearing in a Fox movie probably contributed to the decision to make it him.
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May 16, 2016 19:39
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Wanda is in DoFP iirc. I think there's a lot of characters that are in rights-limbo. It's not like the contracts say "fox films owns the movie rights to reed Richards, Susan storm, Ben Grimm, Doctor doom, " etc, it's more like "fantastic four and related characters" So when it came to Wanda and Pietro, the contract said X men characters, Marvel argues they're Avengers not XMen, and the eventual legal compromise is "okay but they can't be mutants" So with someone like Kang, it's not that Marvel doesn't have the rights, it's that someone else might have the rights possibly until Marvel tries to take them to task on Kang being an Avengers villain and not a Fantastic Four villain
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May 16, 2016 19:41
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Kingtheninja posted:This would be awesome. If you kill off Vision in Infinity War (hawkeye too maybe), you could use the first arc as a good basis for the movie. Might not be a bad way to use Kang in the MCU either. He's not talking about the good Young Avengers, he's talking about the Gillen one which wasn't very good.
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May 16, 2016 19:46
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The X-Men cartoons have badly dated, but so has the first X-Men movie honestly. I wonder if Fox is hoping that Sophie Turner turns into another J-Law in that they can tie her up before she blows up and build a franchise around her. I would really prefer to have Jean in the center of everything than Mystique. edit: as for having new/different mutants instead of the same three over and over, I am hoping New Mutants introduces cool new things.
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May 16, 2016 19:48
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