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Rather unnecessary, since it was done so Stalin could keep his chunk of Poland from the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.
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May 17, 2016 17:02
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Count Roland posted:I'm wondering what the thread thinks of these events. Good thing, bad thing, necessary thing? Its often forgotten about, with all the horrors of that war, many inflicted by Germans, that this sort of ethnic cleansing happened to them as well (though obviously not to anything like the same degree of violence). Collective punishment is bad, but it's understandable that it happened. One thing that's stupid is that it happened even in some countries that were German allies during the war.
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May 17, 2016 17:10
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cheerfullydrab posted:It was a process that looked clean on a map but was not at all clean in its implementation. You can't make pretty borders without breaking a few eggs. 
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May 17, 2016 17:19
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Phlegmish posted:Collective punishment is bad, but it's understandable that it happened. One thing that's stupid is that it happened even in some countries that were German allies during the war. The best part is when people got collectively punished for not doing anything at all. Or for actively helping the fight.
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May 17, 2016 17:37
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Count Roland posted:I'm wondering what the thread thinks of these events. Good thing, bad thing, necessary thing? Its often forgotten about, with all the horrors of that war, many inflicted by Germans, that this sort of ethnic cleansing happened to them as well (though obviously not to anything like the same degree of violence). There was a D&D thread a couple months back in which some posters were denying that the Soviet Union ever invaded Poland, so, you know. 
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May 17, 2016 17:47
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The entire Second World War was a false flag.
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May 17, 2016 17:50
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Those Polish officers were clearly in a suicide cult. Katyn was their Jonestown.
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May 17, 2016 18:19
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TinTower posted:There was a D&D thread a couple months back in which some posters were denying that the Soviet Union ever invaded Poland, so, you know. I have terrible opinions about WW2, but if I could convince people of one thing, it's that you can believe that two opposing forces can be bad at the same time. As in, you can talk about evil things the Soviets did without being a Third Reich supporter. In fact, you can talk about them without making any comparison. You don't even have to get into equivalencies, i.e "Nazis, Soviets, same thing." You can talk about terrible stuff the Nazis did over here in this area, and you can talk about terrible stuff the Soviets did over in the other area, and not get into some discussion about who was worse. Same goes for other Allied no-nos. You can talk about the atomic bombings without bringing the firebombings into the equation. Multiple things can be wrong at the same time without making comparisons!
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May 17, 2016 18:32
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Quite. That said, Stalin fanboys are known for following their leader with a penchant for whataboutery and genocide denial (or downplaying thereof). There are Stalinists who seriously think that there wasn't a famine in Ukraine in the early 1930s.  Political map:  Countries coloured by who gave the most points to Ukraine (blue) or Russia (red) in this year's Eurovision Song Contest. Only three participating countries did not give points to both: Russia and Ukraine (because you can't vote for your own country), and Iceland (who gave zero points to Ukraine). Belarus and Azerbaijan awarded the maximum 24 points they could to Russia; Poland and San Marino awarded the maximum 24 to Ukraine. TinTower fucked around with this message at 11:29 on May 18, 2016 |
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May 17, 2016 18:48
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Count Roland posted:I'm wondering what the thread thinks of these events. Good thing, bad thing, necessary thing? Its often forgotten about, with all the horrors of that war, many inflicted by Germans, that this sort of ethnic cleansing happened to them as well (though obviously not to anything like the same degree of violence). I'd say that it was clearly a bad thing (though I'm biased, as my grandfather was 16 when he was forced by the Czechoslovakian government to first work in a coal mine and then get thrown out of the country he was born in). As a historian it's understandable though, as a mixture of revenge, misery and plain greed formed in a historical context that was pretty much only possible in a very short timeframe immediately after the war. Also the expulsions arguably helped creating stability in what had been a very volatile area throughout the last 40-60 years or so before the war, so there's that. No crying over spilt milk though, everybody who was expulsed back then is either dead by now or has been living in his or her new home for way longer than in the old one, and the Poles/Czechoslovakians/Yugoslavians etc who moved in after the Germans have every right to call it their home by now. The few people in Germany who are still clamouring for a return of what was lost are clearly nuts and luckily have been decreasing steadily in number since the 50s. It's quite fascinating to see the consequences the mass expulsion had for what is today's Germany, though. A couple of years ago I attended a lecture about how my home county dealed with the mass of refugees arriving after the war, and at one point the professor giving the lecture asked the audience who had been expulsed themselves or who was related to a refugee, and of an audience of I'd say ~150 people nearly half raised their hand
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May 17, 2016 19:08
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Stalin really loved moving people around to either gently caress with the balance in regions to make them unstable or to make a problem go away, like for example when he moved all the Chechens to central asia.
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May 17, 2016 19:31
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cheerfullydrab posted:I have terrible opinions about WW2, but if I could convince people of one thing, it's that you can believe that two opposing forces can be bad at the same time. As in, you can talk about evil things the Soviets did without being a Third Reich supporter. In fact, you can talk about them without making any comparison. You don't even have to get into equivalencies, i.e "Nazis, Soviets, same thing." You can talk about terrible stuff the Nazis did over here in this area, and you can talk about terrible stuff the Soviets did over in the other area, and not get into some discussion about who was worse. Same goes for other Allied no-nos. You can talk about the atomic bombings without bringing the firebombings into the equation. Multiple things can be wrong at the same time without making comparisons! Meanwhile millions die of famine in British Bengal India and we can hand wave the civilized acceptance of eugenics in allied countries and pretend that there's some duality of evil between the soviets and the nazis.
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May 17, 2016 19:43
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Lord Tywin posted:Stalin really loved moving people around to either gently caress with the balance in regions to make them unstable or to make a problem go away, like for example when he moved all the Chechens to central asia. Let's not be under any assumptions that many of these were anything less than death marches, though.
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May 17, 2016 19:53
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cheerfullydrab posted:In the aftermath of WW2, the Polish nation was moved west, as part of a bright idea Stalin had. The entire population of many eastern German towns were loaded on cattle cars and shipped further into Germany. The entire population of many eastern Polish towns were loaded onto cattle cars and moved west, across Poland, and unloaded in empty former German towns, villages, and cities. This had the effect of moving an entire nation some miles to the west. It was a process that looked clean on a map but was not at all clean in its implementation.
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May 17, 2016 21:11
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Kopijeger posted:Just about anywhere English is not the predominant language. For example, at the local university, there were some exchange students complaining about how not every little thing like cafeteria menus are labelled in English for their benefit, even though those exchanges are supposed to be an opportunity to learn about another culture. Or cases where such students stay for years and earn higher degrees, then they apply for positions with local companies and get rejected due to not speaking our language at all. It may not be an explicit "demand", but there is an underlying assumption that the local language and culture is an inconvenience that these outsiders has the right to be shielded from. Tell me about it. I work in the area of Frankfurt (Germany), where there is a significant minority of expats, many of them staying around for many years. I estimate that around one third of the people learns German, the other third grudgingy learns something to communicate with the locals if it is really necessary, and the other third thinks that German is a stupid and difficult language that nobody should learn and gets offended if people don't talk in English to them and if things aren't written in English. I really hate that (it promotes an even big insularity than normal for these circumstances. These people have lots of money but no connection and even some contempt for the local society and politics), and I have the impression that people are progressively less willing to learn languages, because it is regarded as something difficult and unpleasant that can be solved by everybody adapting to you. The remark on the attitude of wanting to be "shielded" from the local culture is spot-on.
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May 18, 2016 00:16
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Phlegmish posted:Those Polish officers were clearly in a suicide cult. Katyn was their Jonestown. What's the party line for the Stalin ordering his troops to not assist in the Warsaw uprising even though they were like 10km away? I've heard a ton of Katyn denials, but nothing about that.
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May 18, 2016 04:02
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Allies were trying to get him to let them use soviet airfields to drop weapons to the polish rebels, which was a breach of soviet sovereignty of course, and he wanted to halt the advance until they got it all straightened out.
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May 18, 2016 04:05
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AndreTheGiantBoned posted:Tell me about it. I work in the area of Frankfurt (Germany), where there is a significant minority of expats, many of them staying around for many years. I estimate that around one third of the people learns German, the other third grudgingy learns something to communicate with the locals if it is really necessary, and the other third thinks that German is a stupid and difficult language that nobody should learn and gets offended if people don't talk in English to them and if things aren't written in English. The world changes but expats stay the same. You've perfectly described the English speaking expat community of Paris Hemingway wrote about in his 1926 novel The Sun Also Rises, and repeated many of the same charges of 19th and early 20th century Americans who denounced the immigrants of the periods and advanced laws like the Chinese exclusion acts (In fact a large proportion of immigrants in this period came only to work and returned to their home nations after several years). I don't really want to make excuses for anyone, especially not wealthy bohemians slumming it abroad. But learning new languages is hard, especially for an adult. And it's not just the difficulty or time, you have to be confident enough to thrust yourself into confusing situations you can't fully understand, and capable of handling the shame of illiteracy and the need to depend on others. Much easier to just always visit the same stores, same restaurants and same streets as your fellow countrymen where you know you can get by with the language you do know. I'll bet most of them would love to lean German, but when you're set in a pattern its easy to make excuses and try and coast along with nothing more than guten Tag and guten Morgen.   
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May 18, 2016 05:35
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Am I the only one who thinks it's weird that Brits and Americans are "expats" but everyone else is "immigrants"?
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May 18, 2016 06:23
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Gibraltar is an integral, inseparable part of the Empire, and if you think it's going to be left behind after Brexit then you wogs've got another think coming!
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May 18, 2016 06:47
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Peanut President posted:Am I the only one who thinks it's weird that Brits and Americans are "expats" but everyone else is "immigrants"? Expats move somewhere because they have a job lined up there, and can go back home any time.
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May 18, 2016 06:55
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Peanut President posted:Am I the only one who thinks it's weird that Brits and Americans are "expats" but everyone else is "immigrants"? Brits and Americans are members of the transnational liberal elite, not like the filthy peasant natives
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May 18, 2016 07:14
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Peanut President posted:Am I the only one who thinks it's weird that Brits and Americans are "expats" but everyone else is "immigrants"? I don't see anyone at all saying that, except perhaps Squalid, implicitly. A lot of the expats described by Andre and Kopijeger are not native English speakers but will still attempt to use English (or even their own language) instead of the local language. Brits and Americans aren't even necessarily the worst offenders. Learning a new language is not an insurmountable task no matter your age. It's a dumb excuse. You just have to suck it up, step out of your comfort zone and start actually using it. It's the only way to get better. Of course, it doesn't help if the locals (as in Flanders) are constantly falling over themselves to talk to foreigners in their language, no matter how poorly they speak it. It always ticks me off when someone is making an effort to speak Dutch and they reply to him in English or the interlocutor's language. They're trying to get better, you're not being polite by switching, you're not helping them in the long run, they're not going to be impressed with your mad language skillz. The only message they get is, why would I bother learning the local language? And sadly, it's a valid question.
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May 18, 2016 07:19
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Maxwells Demon posted:Expats move somewhere because they have a job lined up there, and can go back home any time. I always hear expat in reference to Iranians in some way wherever they are because of the revolution so if that's the intended meaning it doesn't seem to be consistently applied.
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May 18, 2016 07:21
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Maxwells Demon posted:Expats move somewhere because they have a job lined up there, and can go back home any time. That's also true for immigrants on H1B1 visas in the United States, and also for those in the United States legally and illegally working as seasonal agricultural labor. Although I think those in the United States as H-2A Temporary Agricultural Workers might not technically be immigrants in a legal sense? Anyway, the distinction is so blurry as to be meaningless in practice. It's normal for expats to live and work in country illegally, and many definitely migrate without jobs lined up in advance, often by overstaying tourist visas. The difference is almost entirely in how we feel about the process. Historically it's common for immigrants to return to their home country after some period. That's true of modern migrants entering Europe from the Middle East and it was true of 19th and early 20th century immigrants to the United States.    This last image isn't relevant to the argument I was making, but I thought it was interesting anyway.
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May 18, 2016 07:34
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Phlegmish posted:Learning a new language is not an insurmountable task no matter your age. It's a dumb excuse. You just have to suck it up, step out of your comfort zone and start actually using it. It's the only way to get better. It might be dumb but in any big international city you'll find little pockets where immigrants just don't have to leave their comfort zone, for better or for worse. Whether its a West Coast Chinatown or some sleazy Latin American tourist hub the effect is the same. And if you're washing dishes 12+ hours a day and living with other monolingual compatriots it doesn't make learning the language any easier.
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May 18, 2016 07:45
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slavatuvs posted:What's the party line for the Stalin ordering his troops to not assist in the Warsaw uprising even though they were like 10km away? The Stalinist argument goes is that the real reason for the uprising was as a diversionary tactic so that the Polish government-in-exile could reclaim territory that the Soviets had annexed in the 1939 Soviet invasion that actually also didn't happen.
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May 18, 2016 11:32
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Ponsonby Britt posted:Gibraltar is an integral, inseparable part of the Empire, and if you think it's going to be left behind after Brexit then you wogs've got another think coming! I am spanish, and I can't care less for a big rock in some random part of the coast. Has for the 1million british in Spain. I am surprised too, maybe they live in small "everyone is english" towns in the coast? retired guys that want to live in a place with a more gentle weather.
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May 18, 2016 13:43
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Tei posted:Maybe they live in small "everyone is english" towns in the coast? retired guys that want to live in a place with a more gentle weather. That's most of them, yes.
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May 18, 2016 13:49
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Jaramin posted:Allies were trying to get him to let them use soviet airfields to drop weapons to the polish rebels, which was a breach of soviet sovereignty of course, and he wanted to halt the advance until they got it all straightened out. The how did they explain the B-17s using Soviet airfields during Operation Frantic, which was happening at more or less the same time? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Frantic
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May 18, 2016 14:13
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reignonyourparade posted:I always hear expat in reference to Iranians in some way wherever they are because of the revolution so if that's the intended meaning it doesn't seem to be consistently applied. Yeah, "expat" is often used for political exiles whose exile the speaker considers illegitimate, i.e. in the America this would be Iranians or Vietnamese, or maybe Soviet people when "defector" had the wrong connotation, or maybe the governments-in-exile of occupied countries during WW2. It's basically good immigrants (politically friendly refugees or skilled labourers) vs. bad immigrants (scroungers and job thieves).
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May 18, 2016 14:52
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What's with Ecuador? I get a bunch of search hits for expats living there, but no info on why.
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May 18, 2016 16:49
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Squalid posted:I don't really want to make excuses for anyone, especially not wealthy bohemians slumming it abroad. I wish the beat poets and art-colony types would pick a new name. My family is part Bohemian, which was a perfectly fine nationality until 150 years ago when those no-talent rear end clowns hijacked the name. I suppose I could switch to saying I'm part Czech, but why should *I* change? Oh well. I suppose Pomeranians have it even worse...
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May 18, 2016 17:44
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Powered Descent posted:
and Dalmatians and Lesbians
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May 18, 2016 17:49
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Powered Descent posted:Oh well. I suppose Pomeranians have it even worse... efb
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May 18, 2016 17:49
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Let's not forget the plight of the poor Neapolitans.
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May 18, 2016 17:53
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Vivian Darkbloom posted:What's with Ecuador? I get a bunch of search hits for expats living there, but no info on why. There are a ton of people retiring there because it's rather cheap, great weather, and fairly safe. And I'm pretty sure the country's been actively advertising in media for old people. Also, unlike moving to similar cheap places in Asia etc, you stay pretty much in the same time zones as the mainland US/Canada, which means it's not as much of a hassle to call up your relatives back home.
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May 18, 2016 18:04
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Also their official currency is the US Dollar.
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May 18, 2016 19:01
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Powered Descent posted:I wish the beat poets and art-colony types would pick a new name. My family is part Bohemian, which was a perfectly fine nationality until 150 years ago when those no-talent rear end clowns hijacked the name. I suppose I could switch to saying I'm part Czech, but why should *I* change? Not to mention Hamburgers.
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May 18, 2016 19:06
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Powered Descent posted:I wish the beat poets and art-colony types would pick a new name. My family is part Bohemian, which was a perfectly fine nationality until 150 years ago when those no-talent rear end clowns hijacked the name. I suppose I could switch to saying I'm part Czech, but why should *I* change? Funny I just met an American whose ancestors were bohemian and spoke bohemian, and accidentally offended him when I later said he was Czech and they spoke Czech. What's wrong with being Czech anyway?
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May 18, 2016 19:13
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