CanPol Megathread: Big Changus

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > CanPol Megathread: Big Changus

Tan Dumplord: Mar 9, 2005; by FactsAreUseless

Cultural Imperial posted:

So you guys are all fine with polygamy right

Nah, outlaw the family unit, as it's the root of tribalism. Make all children wards of a monolithic state childcare system. All hail the literal nanny state.

# ? May 17, 2016 17:16

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# ? May 31, 2024 17:39

flakeloaf: Feb 26, 2003; Still better than android clock

We did that already once and the tribes didn't like it.

# ? May 17, 2016 17:17

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

http://thewalrus.ca/pricing-the-open-road/#.Vzsjtt2hmmg.twitter

quote:

Pricing the Open Road
Want a shorter commute? Pay up

Half of montrealers now spend an hour or more each day getting to and from work. In Toronto, the number of cars on highways is increasing faster than population growth. Vancouverites can expect container-truck traffic to jump more than 100 percent over the next five years. Do all these cities need new transportation infrastructure? Yes. Will that, on its own, solve our traffic problems? No.

The solution: congestion pricing. Traffic snarls result when too many people decide to drive their cars in the same area at the same time. Congestion pricing makes it more expensive to be driving one of those cars�and as such is a powerful tool for shifting decisions on a mass scale. There are lots of ways to do this. You can put a toll on a road or a bridge, or even a single lane, and raise the fare when traffic is heaviest and lower it when there�s less demand for road space. You can put a price cordon around an entire area�say a downtown centre�that makes it cheaper to drive in and out during off-peak hours. With rapidly evolving gps technology, you can even charge people based on exactly how much they drive and exactly when they�re driving.

Cities across the world have fought congestion by choosing pricing models that fit their geography and traffic patterns. London�s cordon price reduced downtown traffic by as much as 40 percent. High-occupancy toll lanes sped up rush-hour commutes in Minneapolis and Miami, not just on tolled lanes but on the entire highway. Stockholm lowered its air pollution and greenhouse-gas levels; Milan cut crash-related injuries by a quarter.

Here in Canada, we�re fighting the war against traffic with every weapon but pricing.

Behind closed doors, bureaucrats and even politicians agree congestion pricing makes sense. But it has long been seen as a political third rail. Toronto�s last mayoral race is a case in point. Traffic congestion was the number-one campaign issue. It costs the region billions of dollars every year, and Torontonians, more than Canadians in any other city, suffer from its effects. Candidates were putting everything on the table�lrts and bicycle lanes and subway lines. But when asked point-blank by the Toronto Star whether they�d give pricing a try, every candidate said no. It might be the single issue they all agreed on.

One of the most significant hurdles involves equity, both social and geographic. According to recent polling, urbanites who, for the most part, have better access to public transit and live closer to where they work may be more than happy to charge suburbanites for driving downtown. But that tension only feeds into the class and culture schisms that have notoriously prevented us from tackling Canada�s larger transportation challenges. Just look at the debates over Calgary�s new bike lanes, Montreal�s Champlain Bridge, or Vancouver�s transit funding plan. These battles all break down over whose mobility interests are being served and who will end up footing the bill. The nascent public discussions about congestion pricing crack along the same lines. It�s a cash grab. It�s about making roads for the rich.

But studies such as those released last fall by the Ecofiscal Commission and the Pembina Institute show that it�s possible to roll out pricing in a way that is fair and that ensures that people across regions have affordable alternatives for getting where they need to go. Moreover, pricing can actually save people money � and save them from headaches�by making their commutes shorter and more predictable. And it may be the best way to ensure that the significant tax dollars we invest in transportation infrastructure are well spent. Pembina, for example, found that the introduction of tolls on stretches of Ontario�s 400-series highways, if timed with the completion of major public-transit projects, would increase ridership, reduce traffic congestion by more than 20 percent, and save drivers around $10 per day in gas and maintenance. Even with the fees factored in, drivers still came out ahead.

The 2015 Ecofiscal report suggests that dynamic bridge-pricing (tolls that go up or down based on traffic demand) could make a big difference in Vancouver and Montreal. Vancouver�s twenty bridges are spread out across the region�creating stress points everywhere�while Montreal�s eighteen bridges form a ring around the downtown island, making the in-out commute especially gruelling for off-island residents. In both areas, a combination of harmonized bridge tolls and expanded mass transit could work to reduce congestion. The key is to price all bridges, not just one. The last thing you want is a bunch of �bridge shoppers� jamming up the routes to free crossings. Again, it�s that whole incentives thing.

But all the numbers, theoretical examples, and case studies in the world won�t make people believe that pricing works. We want subways; we want carpool lanes; we want roads. Those things make intuitive sense. Abstract pricing schemes do not. But evidence from places such as London, Stockholm, Singapore, Milan, Minneapolis, and Miami�to name a few�shows congestion pricing really does work. Did people in these cities quit their jobs and abandon their cars? Of course not. They just tweaked their driving habits in various ways. As a result of pricing, those who can shift their schedules a little earlier, or later, do that. Those who can telecommute once in a while do that. Those who can carpool, thereby splitting the cost of the fee, will try it. And those who can take mass transit will do so more often. The point is that human beings are resourceful, and the right incentives make us more so.

In almost every city where congestion pricing is now the norm, people didn�t buy it at first. And in almost every city that has experimented with the method, residents decided to keep it. What we need is embodied evidence, the kind we can get only through actual trials. Run pilot projects. Share the results. Let commuters experience the benefits for themselves. Expect some pushback at first, but do it anyway.

The only thing people hate more than the idea of congestion pricing is congestion itself. We have to win the battle for this new idea before we can win the war against traffic.

gently caress. yes. I've been saying this for years now. Stop all this new modernism jane jacobs bullshit and just congestion charge the gently caress out of every single suburban dwelling rear end in a top hat that drives into town. Problem solved.

# ? May 17, 2016 17:24

InfiniteZero: Sep 11, 2004; PINK GUITAR FIRE ROBOT; College Slice

Heavy neutrino posted:

If you ever believed that the LPC would actually allow its members to actually defeat bills I honestly don't know what to say.

Nobody believed it but that didn't stop him from declaring himself a great hero of the constituents right up until it might have made a difference.

# ? May 17, 2016 17:24

Helsing: Aug 23, 2003; DON'T POST IN THE ELECTION THREAD UNLESS YOU JOE BIDEN

jm20 posted:

The only positive from the cash handouts is the speed of aid transfer and the reduced likelihood of corruption or misspending by th aid org. That said I'm sure some of that community will take up the offer of aid from the displaced exotic dancers.

I hope you now realize why both ikantski and myself identified why the threads social progressive ringleader promoting an individual's choice for spending aid funds seems strange if not bizarre.

This post is five days old so I wish I had responded sooner but I've been busy recently.

The biggest advantage of cash is the flexibility with which it can be used. It's the same logic that leads us to give cash welfare payments to the poor rather than sacks of rice and canned beans. In some cases there may be an opportunity cost to giving cash rather than making cheap bulk purchases, but I'm a little puzzled that you would suggest the default position of the left is to automatically disregard individual preferences. Insofar as possible I think that the goal of the left is to maximize each person's individual autonomy, and often the best way to do that is to give them a greater claim on society's surplus of resources, i.e. give them more money.

It might be that this policy was the wrong allocation of resources given the situation but in principle trying to give individuals money to figure out a bad situation on their own is an eminently practical one and it's not at all incompatible with the other political values I espouse.

# ? May 17, 2016 17:26

CLAM DOWN: Feb 13, 2007

Cultural Imperial posted:

http://thewalrus.ca/pricing-the-open-road/#.Vzsjtt2hmmg.twitter

gently caress. yes. I've been saying this for years now. Stop all this new modernism jane jacobs bullshit and just congestion charge the gently caress out of every single suburban dwelling rear end in a top hat that drives into town. Problem solved.

god I hope this happens

# ? May 17, 2016 17:29

ZShakespeare: Jul 20, 2003; The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose!

Cultural Imperial posted:

http://thewalrus.ca/pricing-the-open-road/#.Vzsjtt2hmmg.twitter

gently caress. yes. I've been saying this for years now. Stop all this new modernism jane jacobs bullshit and just congestion charge the gently caress out of every single suburban dwelling rear end in a top hat that drives into town. Problem solved.

Once this happens we can build a trump wall around this loving city then burn it to cinders and dump some organic farm-to-table artisnal sea salt upon the land so that nothing may ever again take root upon this miserable earth.

# ? May 17, 2016 17:33

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

CLAM DOWN posted:

god I hope this happens

it will never happen. cf everything DJ MAYOR GREGOR ROBERTSON and christy clark are doing about keeping this city and province economically competitive

# ? May 17, 2016 17:38

Do it ironically: Jul 13, 2010; by Pragmatica

at least the traffic problem in vancouver will sort itself out, soon enough most of the properties will be bought with laundered chinese yuan and vacant 95% of the year

# ? May 17, 2016 17:40

Furnaceface: Oct 21, 2004

Cultural Imperial posted:

http://thewalrus.ca/pricing-the-open-road/#.Vzsjtt2hmmg.twitter

gently caress. yes. I've been saying this for years now. Stop all this new modernism jane jacobs bullshit and just congestion charge the gently caress out of every single suburban dwelling rear end in a top hat that drives into town. Problem solved.

Doesnt this really gently caress the working poor who dont have the means or support to live within commuting distance? Driving sucks and I know a lot of people wouldnt shed a tear to see it reduced or gone, but places like Vancouver in particular seem obsessed with building only SFH or bachelor condos in livable distance from places of work and it seems like this is only going to hurt the already struggling people at the bottom.

Unless the idea is to drive all these people out of Vancouver in the first place.

# ? May 17, 2016 17:45

Subjunctive: Sep 12, 2006; ✨sparkle and shine✨

Drive to a kiss-and-ride and take transit from there?

# ? May 17, 2016 17:47

ZShakespeare: Jul 20, 2003; The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose!

Subjunctive posted:

Drive to a kiss-and-ride and take transit from there?

sex-act-and-ride

# ? May 17, 2016 17:48

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

lol poor people

i bet you were against faregates because it prevented ~poor people~ from taking transit for free

# ? May 17, 2016 17:57

Furnaceface: Oct 21, 2004

Cultural Imperial posted:

lol poor people

i bet you were against faregates because it prevented ~poor people~ from taking transit for free

Gate fares are fine for those who can afford them. I am fully in favor of giving the disabled and those in poverty free public transit.

Problem lies in that no one in this country will admit they are poor or that we actually have poor people because ~*Best Place On Earth*~ :canada:

# ? May 17, 2016 18:03

CLAM DOWN: Feb 13, 2007

lol poor people in BC

# ? May 17, 2016 18:06

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

hmm a fair point. I resolve that we institute a new federal law that entitles poor people to legally take whatever they want from stores

give them free gasoline so they can get to their jobs

# ? May 17, 2016 18:07

Risky Bisquick: Jan 18, 2008; PLEASE LET ME WRITE YOUR VICTIM IMPACT STATEMENT SO I CAN FURTHER DEMONSTRATE THE CALAMITY THAT IS OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM.; Buglord

Cultural Imperial posted:

hmm a fair point. I resolve that we institute a new federal law that entitles poor people to legally take whatever they want from stores

give them free gasoline so they can get to their jobs

Italy did this

# ? May 17, 2016 18:09

flakeloaf: Feb 26, 2003; Still better than android clock

Furnaceface posted:

Doesnt this really gently caress the working poor who dont have the means or support to live within commuting distance? Driving sucks and I know a lot of people wouldnt shed a tear to see it reduced or gone, but places like Vancouver in particular seem obsessed with building only SFH or bachelor condos in livable distance from places of work and it seems like this is only going to hurt the already struggling people at the bottom.

Unless the idea is to drive all these people out of Vancouver in the first place.

If the city created the problem by not allowing enough sustainable housing in a useful space and then refusing to create viable mass transit options for the poor saps who have to live in the back 40, then loading the "solution" to that problem onto the backs of the poor does sound like kind of a lovely thing to do.

On the other hand, maybe you shouldn't live four hours away from work because you absolutely must have a barbie dream home.

Furnaceface posted:

Gate fares are fine for those who can afford them. I am fully in favor of giving the disabled and those in poverty free public transit.

Problem lies in that no one in this country will admit they are poor or that we actually have poor people because ~*Best Place On Earth*~

Also this

From personal experience in Ottawa, you'd swear that giving homeless people free transit was city policy now.

# ? May 17, 2016 18:15

Juul-Whip: Mar 10, 2008

flakeloaf posted:

We did that already once and the tribes didn't like it.

They screwed up by not making it universal and having the churches run it.

# ? May 17, 2016 18:19

Patrick Spens: Jul 21, 2006; "Every quarterback says they've got guts, But how many have actually seen 'em?"; Pillbug

THC posted:

They screwed up by not making it universal and having the churches run it.

Wait, do you seriously think that would be a good idea? Because holy lol.

# ? May 17, 2016 18:28

ZShakespeare: Jul 20, 2003; The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose!

lol those dumb subuEXCELLENT WORK DOUBLING DOWN ON RESIDENTIAL SCHOOLS, THC. SOON THE LEFT WILL BE INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM THE FASCISTS ALLOWING THE PERMANENT REIGN OF YOUR MASTERS. WE HAVE TRANSFERRED $666 DOLLARS INTO YOUR PAYPAL ACCOUNT FOR THIS SERVICEking on a tailpipe with their own bootstraps. What a bunch of assholes.

# ? May 17, 2016 18:29

Juul-Whip: Mar 10, 2008

Patrick Spens posted:

Wait, do you seriously think that would be a good idea? Because holy lol.

Yes, I am completely serious. This is me being serious right now. Totally not joking here.

# ? May 17, 2016 18:31

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Cultural Imperial posted:

http://thewalrus.ca/pricing-the-open-road/#.Vzsjtt2hmmg.twitter

gently caress. yes. I've been saying this for years now. Stop all this new modernism jane jacobs bullshit and just congestion charge the gently caress out of every single suburban dwelling rear end in a top hat that drives into town. Problem solved.

This is correct. I'm a huge supporter of congestion charging and toll roads. gently caress you take transit if you don't like it.

# ? May 17, 2016 18:47

Jordan7hm: Feb 17, 2011; Lipstick Apathy

ZShakespeare posted:

lol those dumb suburban pieces of poo poo sucking on a tailpipe with their own bootstraps. What a bunch of assholes.

This is my favorite gimmick.

# ? May 17, 2016 18:59

cowofwar: Jul 30, 2002; by Athanatos

Single family home in Barrie with a 1.5hr commute: the Canadian dream. Also controlling downtown Toronto city planning from there.

# ? May 17, 2016 19:28

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

http://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/trudeau-accused-of-breaking-promise-on-west-coast-marine-safety

quote:

Longtime Quadra Island politician Jim Abram says he heard Justin Trudeau promise one thing before the election and something else after it.

Abram, vice-chair of the Strathcona Regional District, said the prime minister has broken a �face-to-face� promise he made to Abram concerning commitments to marine safety on the West Coast.

�I truly believed Justin Trudeau when he said he would take care of our safety concerns,� said Abram, a onetime lighthouse keeper at Cape Mudge who served as president of the Union of B.C. Municipalities in 2000-01.

The talk with Trudeau occurred in an Edmonton restaurant last June when the Liberal leader was hosting a reception to seek support for his election campaign.

Abram said there was �no doubt� that Trudeau was promising support for the ferries, marine safety and marine communications.

�As far as I�m concerned Trudeau promised the West Coast he was going to look after us, and he�s not,� Abram said.

Critics say Liberal cuts to maritime safety include the closure of an emergency Marine Communications and Traffic centre in Comox on May 10; reducing the number of �safety� desks at the remaining Canadian Coast Guard centres in B.C. from five to four; cutting the number of supervisors and trimming the national budget for the centres from $49 million to $42 million.

100% support the closing of any services that only serve the leisure activities of the rich

# ? May 17, 2016 20:07

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

You know why I can't wait for all conventional press to just collapse into a neutron star of poo poo? To find out any sort of information on wtf was up with matthew de grood I have to resort to a loving reddit search:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Calgary/comments/4jlc9q/matthew_de_grood_quintuple_murder_trial_begins_in/

Turns out this guy was crazy as gently caress

# ? May 17, 2016 20:14

Hexigrammus: May 22, 2006; Cheech Wizard stories are clean, wholesome, reflective truths that go great with the marijuana munchies and a blow job.

Cultural Imperial posted:

http://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/trudeau-accused-of-breaking-promise-on-west-coast-marine-safety

100% support the closing of any services that only serve the leisure activities of the rich

Well, some of us actually have to make a living out there. OTOH having rich, connected lawyers using the Gulf of Georgia as their playground has traditionally made for better CCG service than what they get back east. Not sure if we got much out of the Margaret Sinclair/Trudeau connection, but every little bit helps. Having said that:

1) the closure of an emergency Marine Communications and Traffic centre in Comox on May 10;

With today's technology there's no reason this station's functions can't be done somewhere else. It's not like the Centre isn't inland behind steep sand bluffs well away from any actual boats or anything, OTOH, if Shared Services is involved in the technology we're all screwed.

2) reducing the number of �safety� desks at the remaining Canadian Coast Guard centres in B.C. from five to four;

Not sure what these desks actually do. If they were involved in tanker inspection I'd be concerned but they probably just hire a bunch of students to tool around in the summer checking life jackets and handing out pamphlets. Sucks for the students, but your point is valid.

3) cutting the number of supervisors

Depends what they're supervising, I suppose, but this sounds like less brass topside. :qq:

4) and trimming the national budget for the centres from $49 million to $42 million.

Given how far behind CCG's capabilities are compared to the USCG this might be a dumb thing to do. Technology costs money.

# ? May 17, 2016 21:04

Patrick Spens: Jul 21, 2006; "Every quarterback says they've got guts, But how many have actually seen 'em?"; Pillbug

THC posted:

Yes, I am completely serious. This is me being serious right now. Totally not joking here.

Apologies, this thread fucks with my sarcasm detector.

# ? May 17, 2016 21:04

Square Peg: Nov 11, 2008

Cultural Imperial posted:

You know why I can't wait for all conventional press to just collapse into a neutron star of poo poo? To find out any sort of information on wtf was up with matthew de grood I have to resort to a loving reddit search:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Calgary/comments/4jlc9q/matthew_de_grood_quintuple_murder_trial_begins_in/

Turns out this guy was crazy as gently caress

It's a shame giving homicidal maniacs nicknames is out of vogue right now, because this happened during a lunar eclipse and the Blood Moon Murderer would be a pretty metal title.

# ? May 17, 2016 21:07

Helsing: Aug 23, 2003; DON'T POST IN THE ELECTION THREAD UNLESS YOU JOE BIDEN

In CI worldview Mathew de Grood was crazy despite the fact he stabbed five Canadians.

# ? May 17, 2016 21:13

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

any time is a good time to stab canadians to death imo

# ? May 17, 2016 21:17

Juul-Whip: Mar 10, 2008

cowofwar posted:

Single family home in Barrie with a 1.5hr commute: the Canadian dream. Also controlling downtown Toronto city planning from there.

Yeah as much as I would love for people who may or may not be poor to be able to drive through my town with total convenience, I also enjoy not being run over. It also isn't much cheaper (if at all) to live in the 'burbs and drive 4 hours a day than it is to just live near your work. gently caress you and your white picket fence and your collection of automobiles. (Not sarcasm)

# ? May 17, 2016 21:45

Tighclops: Jan 23, 2008; Unable to deal with it; Grimey Drawer

Not everybody who lives in the suburbs are oblivious middle class trashholes with too many Premium Luxury Items like sport utility vehicles that spill over into the street even though they've got a two car garage that sits empty most of the time

but most are and there's no way to stop these assholes without stepping on the rest of us

fuuuuuuuck

# ? May 17, 2016 22:41

Reince Penis: Nov 15, 2007; by R. Guyovich

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!

# ? May 17, 2016 22:47

Hand Knit: Oct 24, 2005; Beer Loses more than a game Sunday ...
We lost our Captain, our Teammate, our Friend Kelly Calabro...
Rest in Peace my friend you will be greatly missed..

Dreylad posted:

Here's a fun historical reason why the census matters!

link that poo poo

# ? May 17, 2016 23:01

sitchensis: Mar 4, 2009

Square Peg posted:

It's a shame giving homicidal maniacs nicknames is out of vogue right now, because this happened during a lunar eclipse and the Blood Moon Murderer would be a pretty metal title.

I was friends with one of the victims. It was surreal and really disconcerting to see the entire event turned into a loving hashtag on Twitter #BSD5. I'd also been inside the house a several times before the murders happened. Reading the testimony is just ... I can see it all in my head. I know exactly where my friend died and what it must have looked like. It's horrifying.

I hope de Grood gets locked away for a long time.

# ? May 17, 2016 23:17

Legit Businessman: Sep 2, 2007

Legit Businessman fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Sep 9, 2022

# ? May 17, 2016 23:27

the talent deficit: Dec 20, 2003; self-deprecation is a very british trait, and problems can arise when the british attempt to do so with a foreign culture

Cultural Imperial posted:

So you guys are all fine with polygamy right

government shouldn't have any position on marriage at all. let people assign benefits currently afforded to husbands/wives to whoever they want

# ? May 17, 2016 23:35

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# ? May 31, 2024 17:39

Dallan Invictus: Oct 11, 2007; The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes, look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

Hold! What you are doing to us is wrong! Why do you do this thing?

Somebody fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Sep 9, 2022

# ? May 17, 2016 23:36

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