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Discendo Vox posted:I've said it a few times now; if you haven't experienced the effects of a state with near-universal state control of the media, it's hard to understand its effects on the civic consciousness. People voted for Putin when there was no semi-total control, just a guy Yeltsin pulled out of nowhere, and his vouching was more of a negative. But that is a good point, and I often say that someone who never belonged to a group that was the focus of a massive propaganda machine, should not judge harshly those who were. This Bloodshit (loving hell) guy's thread in QCS is how I got here, and while that's a regrettable posting style of questionable sincerity it's hardly worse than saying most Russians are peasants or admitting that you hope our lives get worse and worse until Russia is no longer a threat to NATO countries.
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May 18, 2016 16:56
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Discendo Vox posted:I've said it a few times now; if you haven't experienced the effects of a state with near-universal state control of the media, it's hard to understand its effects on the civic consciousness. lmao  http://www.businessinsider.com/these-6-corporations-control-90-of-the-media-in-america-2012-6
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May 18, 2016 16:58
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Bloodshit posted:lmao Do you just have all this at the ready? The way you keep pumping out statistical data and related links at a moment's notice is really impressive regardless of whether it's all posted in bad faith or not.
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May 18, 2016 17:01
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The Troll Factory pays me extra rubles for supporting my internet arguments with facts and statistics.
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May 18, 2016 17:14
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Bloodshit posted:lmao The flaw in your analogy is that in Russia the state controls the media; in the US the media controls the state.
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May 18, 2016 17:22
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I wonder whether they get a bonus for commenting on the topic of media freedom right after what just happened to RBC.
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May 18, 2016 17:27
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Bloodshit posted:lmao
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May 18, 2016 17:32
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The good thing about being able to publish almost everything is that you can, if you're lucky, defect to one of these "totalitarian" states after publishing the remaining part.
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May 18, 2016 17:39
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It's a shame the sources aren't more valid, then.loga mira posted:People voted for Putin when there was no semi-total control, just a guy Yeltsin pulled out of nowhere, and his vouching was more of a negative. But that is a good point, and I often say that someone who never belonged to a group that was the focus of a massive propaganda machine, should not judge harshly those who were. Well, most Russians are extremely poor by most metrics; Russia has worse economic inequality than anywhere else on earth, I believe.
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May 18, 2016 17:49
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loga mira posted:This Bloodshit (loving hell) guy's thread in QCS is how I got here, and while that's a regrettable posting style of questionable sincerity it's hardly worse than saying most Russians are peasants or admitting that you hope our lives get worse and worse until Russia is no longer a threat to NATO countries. I want Russia to become so weak it cannot threaten ANY country, not only NATO countries. And that the lifes of Russians will get worse because of it is unfortunate, but unavoidable.
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May 18, 2016 17:51
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Discendo Vox posted:Russia has worse economic inequality than anywhere else on earth, I believe. Source.
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May 18, 2016 17:57
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loga mira posted:The good thing about being able to publish almost everything is that you can, if you're lucky, defect to one of these "totalitarian" states after publishing the remaining part. Oh yeah, Russia maintains her one trophy activist while she is murdering and imprisoning journalists and NGO members on a nearly daily basis.
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May 18, 2016 17:59
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Nitrox posted:I fail to see how having 6 different media conglomerates controlling 80% of information, is the same as 1 outfit controlling 100% of all media. And don't forget the actual freedom to publish/broadcast most information with impunity, no matter how small the channel, unlike in totalitarian regimes that we're referring to here. You should tell that to Ambers Lyon, whose documentary on the Bahraini uprising was pulled from the air because it painted the US-backed Bahraini regime in a negative light. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_Lyon#Internal_whistleblowing_on_CNN.27s_coverage_of_the_Bahrain_protests The same reporter later claimed that she received instructions from CNN higher ups to demonize the governments of Syria and Iran. https://web.archive.org/web/20130402001657/http://sana.sy/eng/22/2013/03/30/475112.htm This (very long) article by Carl Bernstein examines the long history of CIA media infiltration and subversion: http://www.carlbernstein.com/magazine_cia_and_media.php The CIA would be stupid not to manipulate popular sources of information to support its agenda.
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May 18, 2016 18:03
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Bloodshit posted:lmao Yes thanks for re-confirming that Americans do not have all of their media controlled by the government, but indeed have many different people owning a lot of them, many in quite active opposition to each other.
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May 18, 2016 18:07
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Discendo Vox posted:I've said it a few times now; if you haven't experienced the effects of a state with near-universal state control of the media, it's hard to understand its effects on the civic consciousness. To be fair it works the other way as well. Most of the UK media is owned by Murdoch who is very much a kingmaker within this country. Corporate control, state control. Pick your poison.
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May 18, 2016 18:09
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loga mira posted:Source. Some time ago there was a sensationalist boom of news about the median wealth in Russia being below that of India, which came from an incorrect understanding of an report published by Credit Suisse that worked with nation-specific variables, and so the results weren't universally comparable across countries. In the aftermath of that the idea that Russia was extremely inequal became entrenched even more so that it had been previously. However, while Russia is not the most inequal country in the world by measures such as GINI, it is still extremely inequal by any standard: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/inequality-and-the-putin-economy-inside-the-numbers/
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May 18, 2016 18:11
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fishmech posted:Yes thanks for re-confirming that Americans do not have all of their media controlled by the government, but indeed have many different people owning a lot of them, many in quite active opposition to each other. Can you name some ways in which those media sources are "in quite active opposition to each other"? Thanks.
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May 18, 2016 18:12
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Bloodshit posted:You should tell that to Ambers Lyon, whose documentary on the Bahraini uprising was pulled from the air because it painted the US-backed Bahraini regime in a negative light. "But you are lynching negroes!"
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May 18, 2016 18:12
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steinrokkan posted:Oh yeah, Russia maintains her one trophy activist while she is murdering and imprisoning journalists and NGO members on a nearly daily basis. Is this a competition then, maintain an illusion of free speech while imprisoning or causing as few activists to defect as you can?
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May 18, 2016 18:14
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Bloodshit posted:You should tell that to Ambers Lyon, whose documentary on the Bahraini uprising was pulled from the air because it painted the US-backed Bahraini regime in a negative light. It seems to me like you're trying to use the shittiness of one country's media to excuse another, which ultimately leaves all of us worse off. So you should probably stop.
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May 18, 2016 18:15
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Bloodshit posted:Can you name some ways in which those media sources are "in quite active opposition to each other"? Thanks. Please present me with a detailed comparative analysis of the editorial leanings of the Wall Street Journal, The Lost ANgeles Times, The Atlantic and The Huffington Post, or shut the gently caress up.
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May 18, 2016 18:16
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quote:So you should probably stop.
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May 18, 2016 18:18
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steinrokkan posted:However, while Russia is not the most inequal country in the world by measures such as GINI, it is still extremely inequal by any standard: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/inequality-and-the-putin-economy-inside-the-numbers/ Yeah no poo poo but the guy has "pedantry" in his custom title..
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May 18, 2016 18:18
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loga mira posted:Is this a competition then, maintain an illusion of free speech while imprisoning or causing as few activists to defect as you can? There is the fundamental difference: In America, they, once in a couple of years arrest somebody on problematic charges of disrupting national security while millions of people do and say whatever they want, all along the political spectrum and organized as they will. In Russia, the state systematically exterminates all opposition on a permanent basis, outright assassinating its critics and destroying all opposing NGOs.
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May 18, 2016 18:19
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loga mira posted:Source. My bad, it's just worse than any of the other larger developed nations. Regarde Aduck posted:To be fair it works the other way as well. Most of the UK media is owned by Murdoch who is very much a kingmaker within this country. Corporate control, state control. Pick your poison. Corporate control every time, accepting the assumption of unilaterality- there's more than one corporation, and they don't have armies. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 18:24 on May 18, 2016 |
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May 18, 2016 18:20
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Hell, just in the last couple of years armed militants repeatedly rallied to political stand-offs against federal agencies and walked away largely unpunished, and people like Alex Jones, Glenn Beck or Mark "Master SHake" Levin are spreading their apocalyptic rambling and calls for open insurrection against the government to millions of listeners every day without any impediment from the government. Even the sources quoted by anti-American conspiracy theorists only exist because they are protected by Western freedom of speech, otherwise they would be scrubbed as they are in other countries.
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May 18, 2016 18:23
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StandardVC10 posted:It seems to me like you're trying to use the shittiness of one country's media to excuse another, which ultimately leaves all of us worse off. So you should probably stop. It seems to me like you're more interested in demonizing another country than fixing the problems in your own.
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May 18, 2016 18:24
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Bloodshit posted:Can you name some ways in which those media sources are "in quite active opposition to each other"? Thanks. Some are rabidly right wing, some are quite left wing, some are centrist at all times and some are current-government-following at all times. Also, there's no meaningful internet censorship program, not even on the level of the UK's stupid "cleanfeed" proposal. Russia has only "current government following" in the majority of their media. You would know this if you ever lived here. Bloodshit posted:It seems to me like you're more interested in demonizing another country than fixing the problems in your own. Such as? Only a moron would pretend that returning, say, media to local rich people actually fixes anything.
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May 18, 2016 18:24
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Bloodshit posted:It seems to me like you're more interested in demonizing another country than fixing the problems in your own. "So what if I killed a guy, you were caught jaywalking  "
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May 18, 2016 18:26
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steinrokkan posted:There is the fundamental difference: Fundamental difference would be one country persecuting activists and the other not doing that. Would you agree that this is a stupid argument that self-respecting people should not be having?
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May 18, 2016 18:27
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quote:Whataboutism (also sometimes called "whataboutery") is a form of propaganda to counter criticism (usually from "the West") with a "What about …?" question vaguely related to the original question asked. It is a specialized form of the red herring tactic and often involves a healthy dose of tu quoque fallacy and balance fallacy. During the Soviet era, this was usually in the form of "And at your place, they hang black people". In Putin's Russia this propaganda technique has made a comeback, especially since the (ongoing) Ukraine conflict. North Korea and, to a lesser extent, the People's Republic of China are also big fans of this tactic. The fallacy is now also often seen from some defenders of Israel. Just ignore his comments already goddamn
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May 18, 2016 18:29
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Bloodshit posted:It seems to me like you're more interested in demonizing another country than fixing the problems in your own. Of course I'm interested in fixing my own country's problems. You know what one of its problems is? People who only identify problems as a means of false equivocation to make the other side look bad, rather than addressing them in good faith. Like what you're doing right now!
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May 18, 2016 18:30
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loga mira posted:Fundamental difference would be one country persecuting activists and the other not doing that. No, it is not, however your relativizing the injustice committed against a few men with a much greater injustice inflicted upon an entire people is not just stupid, it is despicable and the reason why Russia is a shithole deeply hated by anybody who has any historical experience with her.
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May 18, 2016 18:32
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fishmech posted:Some are rabidly right wing, some are quite left wing, some are centrist at all times and some are current-government-following at all times. Also, there's no meaningful internet censorship program, not even on the level of the UK's stupid "cleanfeed" proposal. Russia has only "current government following" in the majority of their media. Can you give me some examples of those news outlets criticizing US foreign policy in Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen, or Ukraine?
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May 18, 2016 18:33
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Bloodshit posted:Can you give me some examples of those news outlets criticizing US foreign policy in Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen, or Ukraine? Yes, go search google news for any of those, my dear. Hell, Fox News has been whining about Libya for 5 years straight!
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May 18, 2016 18:35
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Benghazi was never a thing, apparently, lol. And the leading presidential candidates haven't been grilled about Iraq and Afghanistan pretty much constantly just in the past couple of months.
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May 18, 2016 18:36
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Fox News whined about 3 Americans being killed by Wahhabi terrorists in the Libyan consulate. It didn't whine about tens of thousands of Libyans being killed by a bombing campaign in violation of international law and the failed state perpetual civil war that has emerged there ever since. Fox News, like all other mainstream "news" outlets, never criticized Obama's decision to bomb Libya and topple the Libyan government. Just like none of those "news" outlets criticized Bush's illegal aggression against Iraq when it took place. And just like they still don't criticize Obama's proxy war against Syria, even though it led to the creation of ISIS. They also don't criticize Saudi Arabia's mass murder campaign in Yemen, or the US-backed Ukrainian government's war against Donbass.
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May 18, 2016 18:42
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Bloodshit posted:Fox News whined about 3 Americans being killed by Wahhabi terrorists in the Libyan consulate. It didn't whine about tens of thousands of Libyans being killed by a bombing campaign in violation of international law and the failed state perpetual civil war that has emerged there ever since. Fox News, like all other mainstream "news" outlets, never criticized Obama's decision to bomb Libya and topple the Libyan government. Supporter of Undeclared War Fought Out Of Uniform Upset About International Law
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May 18, 2016 18:44
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steinrokkan posted:No, it is not, however your relativizing the injustice committed against a few men with a much greater injustice inflicted upon an entire people is not just stupid, it is despicable and the reason why Russia is a shithole deeply hated by anybody who has any historical experience with her. Oh jeez, sorry I made you post this.
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May 18, 2016 18:45
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Bloodshit posted:Fox News whined about 3 Americans being killed by Wahhabi terrorists in the Libyan consulate. It didn't whine about tens of thousands of Libyans being killed by a bombing campaign in violation of international law and the failed state perpetual civil war that has emerged there ever since. Fox News, like all other mainstream "news" outlets, never criticized Obama's decision to bomb Libya and topple the Libyan government. Fox News did in fact whine that Obama was the one ordering the strikes. Sorry you were apparently blind and deaf when the war actually happened?
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May 18, 2016 18:48
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