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CharlestheHammer posted:That argument would hold water if the fact the manga uses it precisely because it is seen as worse than murder, especially for women. A lot of the rape just comes across as lazy. At least when it happens to Gutz it serves a point, it isn't necessary for that point but it does serve it. Ehh, I think it's going a bit far to say that she wasn't important. There are some problems with the way that scene was portrayed, but it matter a lot that it's Casca, the person who was closest to Griffith before Guts showed up, the person who always defended him. Griffith is only thinking about hurting Guts but that doesn't mean that Casca isn't important. It shows that all the horrors of the eclipse aren't just a thing that's happening to Griffith, but that he's actively implicated in all of it. He doesn't just passively sacrifice his friends because he thinks it's the only way forward, he is active in destroying them, throwing away the past. Heck, seeing Guts and Casca together is what finally drives him to despair enough to initiate the eclipse in the first place. It seems really hard to say that she doesn't matter at all. The whole Golden Age arc is about the three of them.
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May 20, 2016 15:29
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The Eclipse is so genius that I couldn't imagine it being written any better. Casca loved Griffith and he fulfilled her "dream". However, the cost and timing was tragic and shows the capriciousness of fate and dreams. Griffith was being the wish granter but at the same time exacting a price. Guts wanted to be with Casca and Griffith united them. I think the fact that Guts was sexually abused and Griffith spoiling Casca in front of Guts has a special meaning. Griffith is completing the fate destined to Casca before he and later Guts intervened. Now, she knows how Guts feels as the victim of rape and Guts knows that she carries that damage too. Griffith violated them both.
temple fucked around with this message at 17:56 on May 20, 2016 |
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May 20, 2016 16:47
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this is getting weird
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May 20, 2016 16:50
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Really a lot of problems could have been avoided had Gutz just hosed Griffith.
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May 20, 2016 16:53
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May 20, 2016 16:57
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Lol a series with tons of rape and murder and that is what gets you.
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May 20, 2016 17:09
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Oh no, that was for earlier stuff, it would have been better if Gutz hosed Griffith
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May 20, 2016 17:17
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CharlestheHammer posted:Really a lot of problems could have been avoided had Gutz just hosed Griffith.
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May 20, 2016 17:59
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Sakurazuka posted:Oh no, that was for earlier stuff, it would have been better if Gutz hosed Griffith IIRC the movies played up the gay angle between the two more than the comic did.
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May 20, 2016 18:20
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The Books still has it. Griffith is so the jilted lover.
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May 20, 2016 18:23
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temple posted:How should Berserk handle women? I think Berserk handles women in line with how reality handles women. Only Berserk uses monsters. temple posted:Griffith would have to top, Guts is clearly vers. Woebin fucked around with this message at 18:54 on May 20, 2016 |
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May 20, 2016 18:47
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griffith wanted to control guts and casca and decided to ruin them when he found them in control of him
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May 20, 2016 18:49
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Griffith was a hero who decided to live his dream rather than live as a nothing getting spoon fed by casca.
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May 20, 2016 19:00
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I read rape mangas but I don't enjoy them
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May 20, 2016 19:06
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Has Miura ever said what his influences were story wise/Griffith? Because he drops mad antichrist overtones all over the place
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May 20, 2016 19:26
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To be fair the Antichrist is a generic character anyway. Which makes sense in his original use.
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May 20, 2016 19:42
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scary ghost dog posted:griffith wanted to control guts and casca and decided to ruin them when he found them in control of him this. it also reinforces the theme throughout the story of god/fate/destiny being capricious/evil and not trusting them. shes raped by the person who she viewed as an angel sent to save her from rape. meanwhile for guts he sees the person who gave him the impetus to seek meaning in his life, take the meaning that he found away from him.
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May 20, 2016 22:09
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apropos to nothing posted:this. it also reinforces the theme throughout the story of god/fate/destiny being capricious/evil and not trusting them. shes raped by the person who she viewed as an angel sent to save her from rape. meanwhile for guts he sees the person who gave him the impetus to seek meaning in his life, take the meaning that he found away from him. The Eclipse event is amazingly well-written and all the set-up for it thematically and plot-wise was perfect. The additional troll rape, boring demon goat sex cult thing (seriously, considering it's Miura, playing off of a horror cliche as trite as this is almost shockingly passe for Berserk), and especially the possessed Farnese sex thing (there was a horse right?) is kinda unnecessary. That being said if there's not a 30 page spread of bodily horrors when the Falcon city finally is unveiled as the climax this series will be a huge let down.
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May 20, 2016 22:36
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please do not throw shade at the rape horse
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May 20, 2016 23:25
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The rape horse made for a great Bloodborne boss.
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May 21, 2016 00:01
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I thought the troll part was a reference to Alien.
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May 21, 2016 00:38
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Um I think you'll find that rape horse was v. important for Farnese's character develo- *crushed by a wheel skeleton*
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May 21, 2016 00:39
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rape horse did nothing wrong! except for the attempted rape. that was pretty bad, actually.
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May 21, 2016 03:27
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Serious Frolicking posted:rape horse did nothing wrong! Wait till you get to his tragic backstory, it will explain everything! Hint: it will involve rape.
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May 21, 2016 04:54
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Serious Frolicking posted:rape horse did nothing wrong! Guys, I'm worried. I don't remember rape horse. 
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May 21, 2016 05:21
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Maera Sior posted:Guys, I'm worried. I don't remember rape horse. Unfortunately, rape horse remembers you 
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May 21, 2016 05:30
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Maera Sior posted:Guys, I'm worried. I don't remember rape horse. He tries to rape the religious lady who leads those Knights. She then tries to gently caress Gutz because everyone does.
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May 21, 2016 05:33
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Maera Sior posted:Guys, I'm worried. I don't remember rape horse. 
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May 21, 2016 05:35
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Aah, you were at my side all along...
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May 21, 2016 05:51
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May 21, 2016 05:54
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quote:Really a lot of problems could have been avoided had Gutz just hosed Griffith. Yup or if Griffith wasn't so afraid/too proud to admit how he felt. And yes, Griffith is totally a power bottom. And I predict that we will eventually see it. In about 3824784372 years.
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May 21, 2016 06:56
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Greetings thread! I decided to use the hiatus to read the thread, to see if perhaps anyone had answered some questions that have been looming in my mind. There were a few interesting finds, but also a bit of amazement at things that have never come up or took forever (like Behi being Casca's, because it will be the fastest way for her to get back to Griffith). I sure would love to see more references backing up some of the claims, but whatever, I'll just sin and post goon fluffing as well. Let's start here: apropos to nothing posted:this. it also reinforces the theme throughout the story of god/fate/destiny being capricious/evil and not trusting them. shes raped by the person who she viewed as an angel sent to save her from rape. meanwhile for guts he sees the person who gave him the impetus to seek meaning in his life, take the meaning that he found away from him. Finally! 180 pages of posters bringing up rape more often than Berserk does, and someone finally gets it (or at least posts it). tl;dr: Casca's savior from rape is Griffith; Guts wants recognition instead of betrayal and gets it from Griffith. At the Eclipse, Griffith decides a course of action leading to rape and betrayal. The character backstory is an essential part of the Eclipse, which isn't just about eating some humans, but as many evil things as can be brought to bear (betrayal, friendship, ... listen to what Slann says). What could have been done to make this a more positive story for the lead female character? I have no problem with Casca swapping roles with either Griffith's or Gut's character, but do you honestly think Miura could have sold a story where Casca rapes Guts' new boyfriend... need I say more? Now then, to the tome, in case you missed it. Someone else can edit out all the  Casca's story is how she was saved from the despair of that mountain village. She's the victim of a rape attempt and then she's granted a means to protect and save herself; for Griffith, it may have been meaningless chance ("Do what you want"), but for her, Griffith is the savior. She decides to follow Griffith, and, whereas Griffith is the brains, she becomes "the action of the Hawks" (until Guts shows up) and "the actor of Griffith's will". She directs everyone in the Hawks without Griffith lifting a finger; she directs Griffith's consciousness to action even when she hates it (protecting Guts when Corkus first wants to murder him). As a Captain of the Hawks, she "cannot be raped", and is not a plaything for the enemy. Her explanation to Guts is when she reveals that Griffith sold himself to Gennon. It seems the (probable) moment when she realizes Griffith will never look at her "as a woman", so she ends up burying those feelings to "be by his side" and to "be his sword" so that he can fulfill his dream. Guts sends her away from the 100 man battle to "return the sword to its sheath" and, on the way, there's an attempted rape; she saves herself long enough to be saved by the Hawks (not Griffith). (Oddly, Judeau just stares at her when she says to hurry and save Guts, which is perhaps when Judeau starts to realize she's changed after Guts arrival, as echoed in the snow later). Guts has a slightly different story. A major component of his childhood is attempting to live up to his father figure. Instead, he learns only betrayal; repeatedly. Gambino doesn't treat him well on the battlefield, treats him like a slave by taking all the money he's earned from the battlefield, sells him to Donovan, and tries to murder him for reasons he doesn't understand. His company of adopted fathers and friends tries to kill him without seeking an explanation, after which suddenly the whole world is against him when he was just trying to be a useful soldier. In chains with a fellow prisoner, he already doesn't want to be touched, even when near the point of exhaustion, and when he tries to form a friendship he's betrayed. The only thing that doesn't betray him is his sword. Corkus decides to rob him (Griffith doesn't care, "Do as you will", same thing he told Casca). It goes sour and Griffith sends in Casca (he doesn't even ask her to save Corkus, or to break up a fight, just "Go take care of it"). She barely survives, but one wonders if Griffith cares about any of his party at this point, or if he's just testing the waters. It's easy to see what Casca would be thinking (because it comes up later): Why is Griffith wasting so many resources on this guy. This leads to her getting pissed off when Griffith tells Guts, "I want you", which is especially clear if he just tells everyone else "Meh whatever". But we were talking about Guts... Guts also ends up wondering why he's been left alive, why his 'enemy' has kept him warm in bed for three days while he had a fever, and why his 'enemy' is willing to negotiate with him on the hill. When Griffith announces he's going to fight because "must obtain the things he desires", Guts gets pissed off (at his "superior attitude", sound much like an infallible father figure that turns out not so nice in the end?). After the fight, Guts is only thinking about how he lost, but Casca has been slighted. After a while (three years etc.), Guts has formed some connections and Griffith protects him like a friend, standing up for him against Casca, trusting him with tasks, and so forth. Griffith provides Guts with the recognition that he's a useful soldier. Later he finds out, surprise!, it's all been a big misunderstanding. Griffith doesn't think of Guts as a friend, Guts realizes he's just been another used tool, and he decides to live for himself instead. And there's Griffith, about which there is no backstory whatsoever. At the Eclipse, he is granted a view of his psyche, but there is no guarantee any such events ever happened in his childhood. We do know that he thinks of people only as tools, doesn't consider himself in view of typical class struggles and limitations, and doesn't think anyone is worthy of being his friend. Having obtained Guts, the "thing he desired", he has to keep him, or everything falls apart... which is does after the snow falls. At that point we see what is likely the most gratuitous and disturbing rape in the whole series, because Griffith is consciously disconnected and seeing Charlotte only as a path to the throne. Typical battlefield rules are in effect, get her pregnant and I'll be king, ride her like a pony. And when he's doing that... yeap, he sees Guts leaving him, which seems more a reference to his ambition than earlier homosexual undertones. Afterwards, Griffith starts ripping his shoulders, just like with Gennon. Before the rescue, when Casca fights Guts, Guts realizes that maybe he "betrayed" Griffith, but points out he had to take his own path; Casca then gets a glimpse that maybe she's made the wrong choice this whole time. They have start to have sex, it goes sideways, and Guts reveals his childhood story to Casca. They follow through with Guts first physical connection and presumably a positive sexual experience for Casca with an actual emotional connection (but they still mention just "licking each others' wounds"). Guts' response is to dive in headfirst  like a teenager ("I want you a thousand times") but Casca is reluctant, pissed that he's planning on leaving again, and tries the childish brush off (tells him he's "stupid", he doesn't buy it). By now Guts is free to care about Griffith as a friend in his own right, but also transitively because he cares about Casca. Leading up to the rescue, Guts has reconnected to the Hawks through Griffith and Casca, and he realizes what he did that led to Griffith's downfall (and very likely has realized that Griffith would have thought of him as a "friend" but he couldn't because his lofty dream required thinking of everyone as a tool; at the least we know that Guts stands up for Griffith as a friend at the Eclipse).The timing of events after the rescue seems somewhat essential. Wyald gets ready to rape Casca, but she's saved by Guts (not by Griffith, not by the Hawks). Griffith gets on top of Casca and does his thing, but she realizes she doesn't want that physical connection from him any longer. She decides not to leave with Guts; when Guts says he's staying with her, she pushes him away onto his own path, but that conversation never concludes because Griffith rides off, they wonder if he overheard them, and then, moments later... Guts is getting betrayed by the one person who made him feel most useful, and who he's realized actually was a friend; and Casca is back to despair and getting raped (not just an attempt like all the others) by her savior and protector. I'm not going to debate at this point whether or not Miura is a genius writer; there are definitely some issues at times, but I think at the least that he's been very lucky with how well these pieces fit together. The Eclipse needed to be more than just a smorgasbord, and it motivates Guts' character leading into The Black Swordsman (honestly, would you trust anyone or want them touching you after trying and failing like that?).
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May 22, 2016 02:24
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I think the problem people have with Miuras depiction of sexual violence is not that its present or aimed primarily at women, but rather that when he draws it often the women tend to be young and shapely and the center of focus, whereas the men are usually depicted as typical famished peasants and are simply less detailed.
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May 22, 2016 17:41
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Moonshine Rhyme posted:Has Miura ever said what his influences were story wise/Griffith? Because he drops mad antichrist overtones all over the place Yeah, it's Devilman. Still worth the read and just extreme for a manga over 40 years old.
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May 22, 2016 18:55
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Begemot posted:Unfortunately, rape horse remembers you I didn't know Peter Lorre was a horsefucker.
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May 22, 2016 19:24
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Piriwi posted:I think the problem people have with Miuras depiction of sexual violence is not that its present or aimed primarily at women, but rather that when he draws it often the women tend to be young and shapely and the center of focus, whereas the men are usually depicted as typical famished peasants and are simply less detailed. I for one will happily let Miura skip the week  it would have taken to draw Griffith's genitals when he's at the well with Guts, even if it means we'll never know how well hung he is.
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May 23, 2016 06:03
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Just photoshop rape horse's face on the doll crotch.
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May 23, 2016 13:34
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Hey guys, I posted without reading the thread for fear of spoilers, can anybody answer a couple questions for me? I picked up Berserk a year or so ago, really liked it, I got past the Band of the Hawk arc to the night of the Eclipse and I had a couple questions about it. Is it implied that the Eclipse was a world-changing event, and now demons roam the Earth, or at least are much more common? Or is it just Guts and Caska who are hunted at night, and otherwise the world at large is the same? Also, can anyone direct me to a place to read Berserk from the beginning? When I read the first arc, it was painfully poorly translated. Also I'm worried I was missing an entire arc. Right after Guts sets off with his new arm and sword, the story immediately jumped to where he already has this elf companion, and I figured the story was jumping forward and might explain it later. So I read this arc with this elf girl who was apparently made a demon by another Egg of the Emperor, like Griffith? And Guts even carries one around and explains to the little girl that you can sacrifice your best friend to gain power? So was Griffith's egg one of many, or was it a special one? It felt like his transformation was this huge event, with all the God Hand demons and he was becoming one of the five big demons and this whole show, or is that what happens to everyone who activates one? And then I tried to restart it the other day, and Mangareader appears to start at an arc I missed, since it's clearly after the Eclipse but he meets Puck in the first chapter they have? I'm pretty confused.
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May 24, 2016 20:25
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Advice posted:Hey guys, I posted without reading the thread for fear of spoilers, can anybody answer a couple questions for me? A lot of your questions are answered more explicitly eventually, but here I go anyway: quote:I picked up Berserk a year or so ago, really liked it, I got past the Band of the Hawk arc to the night of the Eclipse and I had a couple questions about it. Is it implied that the Eclipse was a world-changing event, and now demons roam the Earth, or at least are much more common? Or is it just Guts and Caska who are hunted at night, and otherwise the world at large is the same? The world is still largely the same. Guts and Casca, due to being branded with the mark of sacrifice, are now magnets for all sorts of supernatural stuff. Them being in an area now allows for supernatural stuff to happen there, whereas normally it would not (or be very subdued, just minor stuff like fairies). The apostles are a major exception. Despite having supernatural powers they're more of the physical realm and can just go where they want and transform as they please, as was shown with Wyald and Zodd prior to the Eclipse. quote:Also, can anyone direct me to a place to read Berserk from the beginning? When I read the first arc, it was painfully poorly translated. Also I'm worried I was missing an entire arc. Right after Guts sets off with his new arm and sword, the story immediately jumped to where he already has this elf companion, and I figured the story was jumping forward and might explain it later. http://www.amazon.com/Kentaro-Miura/e/B003UW85ZM/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1 quote:So I read this arc with this elf girl who was apparently made a demon by another Egg of the Emperor, like Griffith? And Guts even carries one around and explains to the little girl that you can sacrifice your best friend to gain power? So was Griffith's egg one of many, or was it a special one? It felt like his transformation was this huge event, with all the God Hand demons and he was becoming one of the five big demons and this whole show, or is that what happens to everyone who activates one? There are two types of Behelits. White ones which produce apostles (e.g. Zodd, Wyald, the snake dude from the first volume, the slug count, Rosine (the elf girl); basically all of the demons at the Eclipse except for the God Hand) and red ones which produce the members of the God Hand. Each is predestined to be in the hands of a certain person who will use it at their lowest moment, sacrificing what they hold most dear, and being reincarnated as a powerful apostle. Griffith's is special, as his ascends him to the ranks of the God Hand, something that only happens once every thousand years or so. quote:And then I tried to restart it the other day, and Mangareader appears to start at an arc I missed, since it's clearly after the Eclipse but he meets Puck in the first chapter they have? I'm pretty confused. The first few volumes are post-Eclipse. The first has Guts being generic 90s badass and killing the snake apostle, and the next one/two have the stuff with the slug count which goes a bit into his backstory, leading to the next like 10 volumes which is the Golden Age arc. That concludes with the Eclipse, taking us back to the post-Eclipse Guts which goes on to the arc with Rosine, the fairy apostle.
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May 24, 2016 20:49
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Advice posted:Hey guys, I posted without reading the thread for fear of spoilers, can anybody answer a couple questions for me? Guts and Casca are the only ones effected. There have always been some monsters around, like other apostles, but they become more active around people marked for sacrifice. That eclipse only changed the world by adding another member to the God Hand, and branding Guts and Casca. quote:Also, can anyone direct me to a place to read Berserk from the beginning? When I read the first arc, it was painfully poorly translated. http://www.amazon.com/Berserk-Vol-1-Kentaro-Miura/dp/1593070209/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1464121149&sr=8-1&keywords=berserk quote:Also I'm worried I was missing an entire arc. Right after Guts sets off with his new arm and sword, the story immediately jumped to where he already has this elf companion, and I figured the story was jumping forward and might explain it later. So I read this arc with this elf girl who was apparently made a demon by another Egg of the Emperor, like Griffith? And Guts even carries one around and explains to the little girl that you can sacrifice your best friend to gain power? So was Griffith's egg one of many, or was it a special one? It felt like his transformation was this huge event, with all the God Hand demons and he was becoming one of the five big demons and this whole show, or is that what happens to everyone who activates one? The story starts after the eclipse, and then flashes back to before it for the golden age arc. It sounds like you missed the whole first Black Swordsman arc, which explains what the deal is with behelits and apostles. Basically, any old normal behelit can be used to summon the God Hand, sacrifice someone you love, and become and apostle. Normally it can be just a single person, but you just become a regular monster, not a godlike being like Griffith/Femto. He had a special crimson behelit that allows one to become one of the God Hand with a great sacrifice. There are lots of regular behelits around, but we've only seen one crimson one.
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May 24, 2016 21:27
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