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I think we are underestimating how bloodthirsty people get after enough babies die. It's not like you can skirt responsibility when the central government controls everything. Or when you go on TV saying your medical care is second best in the world.
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May 21, 2016 21:52
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Dapper_Swindler posted:same. they have too much invested monetarily, power wise and ideologically. i doubt maduro wants to go back to being a bus driver. What? He would live in a loving palace, it's not like he's going to donate everything he has stolen so far to Polar's social programs we all were a part of in the 90s.
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May 21, 2016 21:53
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So, fun news! Remember that policewoman that supposedly got beaten up, and it was recorded in a video? Well, the police officer getting beaten up wasn't her! In fact, the police officer getting beat up was a man. The woman WAS in the incident, in fact she's in the video, right at the beginning! She's running away as the other cop gets beaten up. She got an apartment, paid by the government, for the whole ordeal though, so she's fine in case you're wondering. fnox fucked around with this message at 02:07 on May 22, 2016 |
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May 22, 2016 02:03
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Krispy Kareem posted:I think we are underestimating how bloodthirsty people get after enough babies die. It's not like you can skirt responsibility when the central government controls everything. Or when you go on TV saying your medical care is second best in the world. The problem is that while I personally think what they deserve is pretty clear if they continue to block the democratic process and destroy the country they're running, the result that's best for the country as it tries to rebuild probably requires something short of that. International recognition of the legitimacy of and sympathy for the new government are probably going to be important going forward, as will unity among the people themselves. That doesn't mean pretending nothing happened, but extensive efforts to settle scores could easily instill a new brand of terror-based politics instead of allowing the country to move forward.
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May 22, 2016 02:05
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I'm pretty sure that at least Maduro isn't gonna get off scot free. People are going to want some kind of reckoning and the longer this situation goes on, the angrier they'll be, so he'll probably be the scapegoat. Maybe those who have been linked to the drug trade won't have an easy time getting away either since the US doesn't seem to be big on letting that poo poo slide, unless I'm mistaken. On other news, Nelson Bocaranda (a prominent Venezuelan newsman) is reporting that the students who were detained for beating that policeman/woman in the march a few days ago are being tortured by the SEBIN (our "secret" police, so to speak) to point the finger towards Ramos Allup. If I were to bet, I would say that the government will use this as an excuse to go ahead with the Supreme Court ruling that will dissolve the leadership of the National Assembly, which according to multiple opposition reports, has been ready to go for weeks.
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May 22, 2016 02:14
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Is the supreme court basically the government now?
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May 22, 2016 02:30
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Celexi posted:Is the supreme court basically the government now? I'd phrase it the other way: the government is the Supreme Court. Maduro and the PSUV have complete control over the most important part of the court, which is the Constitutional Chamber. If Maduro wants to do something, he calls up thr Constitutional Chamber and they issue a ruling "legitimizing" his whim.
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May 22, 2016 02:38
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Celexi posted:Is the supreme court basically the government now? I think it would be more accurate to say that the Supreme Court is where the government goes when they want to rubberstamp their abuses of power now. The decision-makers of the government are a small circle of military bigwigs, ministers, and assembly deputies. For all of their excesses, they usually take pains to kind of mask their authoritarianism. For example, they could easily throw jail Ramos Allup in jail right now next to Leopoldo Lopez and let him rot, but they're making the effort of getting some kids who probably were just angry and lashed out to point the finger at him so they can say "This is a democracy and these people are destabilizing it". Adding to what Chuck said, there have been multiple instances of Maduro outright calling for the Supreme Court to strike down rulings from the national assembly. Which obviously should not fly, but as time goes on the pretense gets a little thinner.
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May 22, 2016 02:39
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axeil posted:Yeah More  is the fact that humans seem to nearly always end with institutions in power which set up a privileged elite, a set of people who are exploited for the benefits of that elite and a set of people who are otherised. This seems to be the case whatever the purported root ideology of the system is or exactly how it was founded. You can talk about everything from the medieval catholic church, many modern trade unions, to basically all countries whatever their professed political system etc. When saying basically all countries I should also probably just say "all countries" but I hate dealing in absolutes. Though of course it also has to be said that countries do differ hugely in how bad the state of affair is. The people outside the elite can generally lead a pretty drat good life in Western Europe for exmaple but living in Venezuela is a rather different proposition.
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May 22, 2016 13:47
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I really wish I understood how a country could build a culture of institutional legitimacy and public service to combat corruption, because it seems like it's much easier to corrupt institutions than to fix them--even the US and Western Europe are struggling to maintain public faith in their governments these days. Maduro's doing an unbelievably thorough job of destroying every bit of legitimacy of his office, the courts and the power of the legislature, so while the transition of power when he leaves will allow an opportunity to start fresh in a sense, he's set the bar so low that it's easy to imagine a deep level of corruption remaining. This goes double if the price of oil does increase again, because resource wealth enables fantastic amounts of corruption.
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May 22, 2016 14:38
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Maduro was at a military rally in Vargas state yesterday and he made a couple of interesting comments:
Here are a couple of pictures from the event:  Militas:   Amphibious assault vehicles, I think?:  Labradoodle posted:Adding to what Chuck said, there have been multiple instances of Maduro outright calling for the Supreme Court to strike down rulings from the national assembly. Which obviously should not fly, but as time goes on the pretense gets a little thinner. This is probably the one thing that Maduro and others in the PSUV do on a consistent basis that should make you think, "Wait a minute... can they do that?". When the president of a country or some other high-ranking, powerful official goes on television and says that X person is a murdered, or that they have evidence that X person is a murderer, or say things like, "This person we just arrested will be sentenced to prison", that is a tremendous abuse of power. Perhaps the most infamous example of this in Venezuela (although not even close to the only one) is that of judge Maria Lourdes Afiuni, whom Hugo Chavez sentenced live on television before her trial even started. Have you ever heard a politician or other notable figure answer a question about a trial by saying something like, "I'm not going to comment as this is an ongoing investigation"? That's the way it must be done. In order for the judicial system to be independent, it must be just that: independent from the president telling it what to do on television. Munin posted:More This is something that the rule of law can mitigate to some degree. Ideally, the rule of law would force everyone to play by the same rules, and ensure that not one individual - or group of individuals - is able to operate outside of the law. This is an extremely utopian description of the rule of law, but how strong this principle is in a given country goes a long way. It makes the different between living in a Denmark or living in a Venezuela.
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May 22, 2016 14:54
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Chuck Boone posted:
I'm going to pray for the poor U.S Marines that are gonna have to face this mighty force, I bet Obama is making GBS threads his pants as we speak.
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May 22, 2016 14:59
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El Hefe posted:I'm going to pray for the poor U.S Marines that are gonna have to face this mighty force, I bet Obama is making GBS threads his pants as we speak.  Why would anyone put the guy on the right at the front.
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May 22, 2016 15:05
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Meat shield.
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May 22, 2016 15:12
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Sinteres posted:I really wish I understood how a country could build a culture of institutional legitimacy and public service to combat corruption, because it seems like it's much easier to corrupt institutions than to fix them--even the US and Western Europe are struggling to maintain public faith in their governments these days. That's the kicker. Most governments are filthy, hell I'm in Spain and this poo poo is honestly pretty crazy with all the rampant corruption going on without any repercussions. Still, I have free healthcare, the streets are clean and safe, I have food. My basic needs are well satisfied. They are corrupt and things could work much better, but I have a decent life now and things do work. Can't say the same for my mother and every Venezuelan still living in the country. We just spend 200€ sending her a box full of deodorant, tissues, rice, pasta, tuna, etc. It's insane that we have to find ways to get our families these things from across the ocean. beer_war posted:Meat shield. Operation "get behind the fattie".
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May 22, 2016 15:33
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Sinteres posted:I really wish I understood how a country could build a culture of institutional legitimacy and public service to combat corruption, because it seems like it's much easier to corrupt institutions than to fix them--even the US and Western Europe are struggling to maintain public faith in their governments these days. It's because the definition of "corrupt" is "does something other than the exact standard laid out" (and in some cases, corruption means "doesn't do everything I say in the way I say it"). That being said, the US used to be just as bad as developing countries today. What happened there is that a President got shot by a crazy person who thought he was owed a job (The President appointed most of the government jobs in those days), and the public demanded civil service reform.
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May 22, 2016 15:45
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The absence of corruption is merely one subset of the rule of law concept. When your welfare system is "have Hugo Chavez pointing at a building to expropriate it" instead of a clear, adhered-to system of income taxation and redistributive payments, then people start to opt out of things like registering their property, getting building permits, or respecting norms of ownership at all. When everything is on the black market because Maduro is trying to get rich from an exchange-rate scheme, people stop following safety regulations in factories, settling contract disputes in a court instead of with enforcers, etc. This is the problem that many third-world countries have -- you can't have a safe society or economic growth when there isn't a consistent and publicly known standard. Arbitrary rule by the man at the top or the local police at the bottom is a recipe for a failed state.
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May 22, 2016 17:46
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Obdicut posted:
And next to a really skinny guy! I guess even among the military, food isn't being distributed well.
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May 22, 2016 18:55
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William Bear posted:And next to a really skinny guy! This isn't the military, these are "Bolivarian Militias", which are composed of civilians armed with Springfield bolt action rifles. Unlike the actual military there aren't any physical requirements and you can become part of them after 6 months of training (Saturdays only, of course). This is why it's mostly composed of fat guys and old men, because they get all the benefits of being military personnel without actually being in the military.
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May 22, 2016 20:16
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Think of Dad's Army but with more swarthy characters.
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May 22, 2016 20:24
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Hinterlaces released the results of a survey it conducted between May 18 and May 21. A couple of interesting findings:
The full survey can be found here. Also, Capriles called for another protest on Wednesday, this one also with the goal of reaching the CNE headquarters in Caracas. The Supreme Court issued a ruling earlier this week banning any kind of march/demonstration/protest around the CNE building in Caracas. Protesters have so far been unable to make it anywhere near the building. This is the third big protest in as many weeks. The second one was a little bit more violent, relatively speaking, than the first. It's going to be interesting to see if a pattern develops. Obdicut posted:
Looking at the rest of those militiamen, that big guy's probably one of the healthiest ones in the unit.
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May 23, 2016 01:26
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It has become the kind of situation in Venezuela where only the rich can be fat.
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May 23, 2016 02:43
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Chuck Boone posted:When asked, "Do you consider it necessary to change the government this year in order to solve the crisis affecting Venezuela?", 82.25% said "yes" and 12% said "no". Pretty sad when 83% of a country is CIA fascist spies.
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May 23, 2016 03:36
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I've been following the Middle East thread as well, and the whole situation there seems to be a complex, spiralling, intractable tangle of ideologies, ethnicities, ancient grudges and new dangers. Meanwhile the Venezuela situation, from the outside, seems to come down to a handful of guys at the top of the tree being utter morons.
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May 23, 2016 04:15
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AllanGordon posted:It has become the kind of situation in Venezuela where only the rich can be fat. Surprisingly the effect has been the exact opposite. Venezuela is one of the most obese countries in the world, we're on par with the obesity rate in the US, and this is in no small part due to the inability of the Venezuelan people to have a proper nutrition due to the food shortages. The government loves to mention how they've increase the amount of calories consumed per capita to 3000, ignoring of course that this is actually a bad thing because more calories do not mean better nutrition.
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May 23, 2016 04:22
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What is the reasoning used by the Supreme Court to say that protests in a certain place at a certain time are illegal?
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May 23, 2016 08:21
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Best Friends posted:What is the reasoning used by the Supreme Court to say that protests in a certain place at a certain time are illegal? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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May 23, 2016 08:23
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Best Friends posted:What is the reasoning used by the Supreme Court to say that protests in a certain place at a certain time are illegal? Really good question! Here are some thoughts:
TL;DR: The PSUV/TSJ asked, "How can we make things more difficult for Venezuelans to pressure us to allow the recall referendum to happen?". Making protests near the CNE building in Caracas illegal is one answer. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 13:33 on May 23, 2016 |
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May 23, 2016 13:24
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Chuck Boone posted:Second, no opposition demonstration has made it anywhere near the CNE building. The closest they've gotten is several kilometers away. In other words, no protest has made it "difficult or in some cases impossible" for CNE workers to go to/from work. What has made it difficult/impossible for the CNE workers to move around their office is the overwhelming, oppressive police and military presence around their office in anticipation of the protests. In other words, the CNE workers' petition to the TSJ would have reflected reality more accurately had it asked the court to de-militarize their office building and the surrounding area. Third, the CNE doesn't even work on Wednesdays according to the official decree that makes them work two days of the week. And of course, fourth, the only protests that have been done directly outside the CNE building have been the government sponsored ones. In fact those are the only ones that can directly be blamed for traffic because of the amount of buses they use to move people to the concentrations. So in general, the ruling is as arbitrary as those preceding it. This one is simply retarded though, there's no argument to hold up here, there's no valid interpretation of the constitution that leads to it, and thus it's the TSJ making new laws arbitrarily, which is sort of a dictatorship by definition.
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May 23, 2016 13:45
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UK Labour's Shadow Economic Secretary will be speaking next week at a rally in favor of a dictatorship that imprisons protestors, starves the populace, and destroys democracy: The international left has learned loving nothing from the Venezuela situation and is already planning how to write "and it all happened because of the CIA and the Zionists" into its history books. Enjoy!
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May 23, 2016 14:13
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M. Discordia posted:UK Labour's Shadow Economic Secretary will be speaking next week at a rally in favor of a dictatorship that imprisons protestors, starves the populace, and destroys democracy: That was from a year ago was it not? Are they doing another one?
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May 23, 2016 14:58
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Richard Burgons nickname is 'The Farting Commie' fwiw
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May 23, 2016 15:01
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The current UK government has never met a left-wing dick it didn't like to suck. It's as if tumblr was running a country.
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May 23, 2016 15:02
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-Troika- posted:The current UK government has never met a left-wing dick it didn't like to suck. It's as if tumblr was running a country. The UK is currently governed by the Conservatives. You know, the party of notorious lefties like Maggie Thatcher and Winston Churchill.
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May 23, 2016 15:08
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Spain's El Mundo has an interesting article up today in which it claims to have seen Ministry of Education records that show that Gladys Gutierrez's doctoral thesis committee was made up by three members of the Podemos party, including Juan Carlos Monedero, one of the party's founders. Monedero was apparently forced to distance himself from the party in disgrace after it was revealed that he had received at least 425,000 Euros from the Venezuelan government. Three out of the five professors on her thesis committee are linked to Podemos. The committee approved her thesis in 2011. Gladys Gutierrez is currently the president of the Tribunal Supremo de Justicia. As the head of the supreme court, she plays a key role in ensuring that Maduro remains in power. Podemos is currently the target of a criminal investigation in Spain after it was revealed that the party received millions of Euros in illegal money from the government of Venezuela, starting in around 2008. Spanish law prohibits the funding of political parties from international sources. M. Discordia posted:UK Labour's Shadow Economic Secretary will be speaking next week at a rally in favor of a dictatorship that imprisons protestors, starves the populace, and destroys democracy:
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May 23, 2016 15:33
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I used to be on the Venezuela Solidarity mailing list for years (I was looking for that Irish doc about the 2002 coup attempt, and they sent me a free copy and a shitload of pamphlets and stuff), but can't recall the last time I got a mail from them. There was a hysterical update they sent once about a freebie trip where they were being shown around by their PSUV handlers. It was usefulidiots.txt A quick Google shows they seemed to have gotten a lot quieter after Chavez croaked. They were/are funded by Unite which is the biggest trade union here in the UK. BeigeJacket fucked around with this message at 17:12 on May 23, 2016 |
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May 23, 2016 15:40
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M. Discordia posted:UK Labour's Shadow Economic Secretary will be speaking next week at a rally in favor of a dictatorship that imprisons protestors, starves the populace, and destroys democracy: I just checked, this was June of last year. Contemporary article: http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-c7f9-Hundreds-rally-to-mark-10-years-of-backing-Venezuela#.V0H9FPR4WnM Corbyn was there too. And they brushed off human rights abuses with "lynching negroes"isms. I wonder what UK Labour thinks about Maduro now. The condemnation of the global left would be nice. William Bear fucked around with this message at 17:25 on May 23, 2016 |
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May 23, 2016 17:14
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fnox posted:Third, the CNE doesn't even work on Wednesdays according to the official decree that makes them work two days of the week. No wonder they can't hold a new election this year. I'm surprised they aren't furloughed indefinitely.
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May 23, 2016 17:20
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This Guardian article seems apropos: http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...h_b-aplnews_d-3 I mean, just look at that opening paragraph: quote:Radical tourism is no different from sex tourism. In both the political and the coital, the inhabitants of the rich world go to the poor to find the thrills no one will give them at home. 
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May 23, 2016 17:59
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beer_war posted:This Guardian article seems apropos: they arnt wrong.
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May 23, 2016 18:06
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