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SedanChair posted:Grabbing the mic is not rude if the person you are grabbing it from represents a party which has kept the mic from you. In that case, keeping the mic is rude. Or rather, it is rude, but often being rude is justified.
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May 23, 2016 17:45
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Nocturtle posted:Strange, I had assumed the bulk of his support came from less educated individuals based on casually-reading articles like this: Yeah that's also true. I think that thats within the context of Republican primary voters though, who also trend old/white/successful. We will have to see how the numbers boil out now that he primaries have ended.
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May 23, 2016 17:47
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Talmonis posted:As the "representative of the party that keeps the microphone from them" there is no more appropriate a target as the literal chairperson of the Democratic party. I thought we were talking tactics? Going for the leftist who does public events and always has media following him makes way more political sense than trying to disrupt some DNC meeting or town hall in Florida. Also Sanders claims to represent the leftist and activist part of the Democratic Party in a way DWS never has tried to claim.
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May 23, 2016 17:47
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RE: education level and voting for Trump: https://twitter.com/mmurraypolitics/status/734784273056686080
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May 23, 2016 17:48
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SedanChair posted:A target that won't get you press is seldom logical. You don't think a protest group crashing an event with her and taking her microphone would get press? I think that would be all over the news, just as it was for Sanders. But again as Dexo pointed out, that's why they chose how they did. It was a calculated risk. It was rude, but worth it for the massive coverage. I think DWS would have been even more effective, as it would give the Democratic party a bigger black eye to challenge her on live TV for her party's lack of concrete action to support BLM to that point. Hell, maybe they should still crash something DWS does. I'd watch.
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May 23, 2016 17:49
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Talmonis posted:You don't think a protest group crashing an event with her and taking her microphone would get press? I think that would be all over the news, just as it was for Sanders. But again as Dexo pointed out, that's why they chose how they did. It was a calculated risk. It was rude, but worth it for the massive coverage. I think DWS would have been even more effective, as it would give the Democratic party a bigger black eye to challenge her on live TV for her party's lack of concrete action to support BLM to that point. Why are you assuming national press will be at a local DWS rally in Florida? Like when was the last time DWS was even at an event protesters could disrupt?
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May 23, 2016 17:50
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Didn't BLM go after Clinton too but she has much better SS protection so they didn't get a chance to do anything like mic grabbing?
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May 23, 2016 17:51
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Talmonis posted:You don't think a protest group crashing an event with her and taking her microphone would get press? I think that would be all over the news, just as it was for Sanders. But again as Dexo pointed out, that's why they chose how they did. It was a calculated risk. It was rude, but worth it for the massive coverage. I think DWS would have been even more effective, as it would give the Democratic party a bigger black eye to challenge her on live TV for her party's lack of concrete action to support BLM to that point. No I don't think so, nobody cares about the DNC chair. Do you think even 2 out of 100 Americans know who that is?
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May 23, 2016 17:52
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:https://www.amazon.com/Burglary-Discovery-Edgar-Hoovers-Secret-ebook/dp/B00DXKHGEC?ie=UTF8&btkr=1&redirect=true&ref_=dp-kindle-redirect That sounds right up my alley, thanks. What is the go-to book on the Pentagon Papers?
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May 23, 2016 17:52
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Trabisnikof posted:Why are you assuming national press will be at a local DWS rally in Florida? Because the 24 hour networks follow her and Prebius around, trolling for news. "We're going to cut to Alligator Pit, FL where DWS is getting heckled by protestors." Would absolutely fill airtime better than "What's on twitter right now?"
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May 23, 2016 17:52
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Talmonis posted:You don't think a protest group crashing an event with her and taking her microphone would get press? I think that would be all over the news, just as it was for Sanders. But again as Dexo pointed out, that's why they chose how they did. It was a calculated risk. It was rude, but worth it for the massive coverage. I think DWS would have been even more effective, as it would give the Democratic party a bigger black eye to challenge her on live TV for her party's lack of concrete action to support BLM to that point. No, I don't think there'd be much press beyond 'hey we weren't there watching it because why would we be but I heard BLM protested DWS, wild huh?' You know, that's why you tend to do it in public, live, places where you can't be brushed off.
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May 23, 2016 17:53
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Trabisnikof posted:
She does them frequently. Depending on how serious local private security would get, i've been to two of her events this year alone that allowed the public inside.
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May 23, 2016 17:53
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Talmonis posted:Because the 24 hour networks follow her and Prebius around, trolling for news. "We're going to cut to Alligator Pit, FL where DWS is getting heckled by protestors." Would absolutely fill airtime better than "What's on twitter right now?" Remind me not to hire you as a producer.
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May 23, 2016 17:54
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botany posted:That sounds right up my alley, thanks. What is the go-to book on the Pentagon Papers? I'm not sure but if you ask in the book barn recommendation thread (it's in the anime forum right now) someone will suggest one I'm sure .
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May 23, 2016 17:55
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MattD1zzl3 posted:She does them frequently. Depending on how serious local private security would get, i've been to two of her events this year alone that allowed the public inside. Did the national press have tv crews set up for those events?
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May 23, 2016 17:55
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Talmonis posted:Because the 24 hour networks follow her and Prebius around, trolling for news. "We're going to cut to Alligator Pit, FL where DWS is getting heckled by protestors." Would absolutely fill airtime better than "What's on twitter right now?" Haha WHAT
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May 23, 2016 17:58
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SurgicalOntologist posted:Or rather, it is rude, but often being rude is justified. Would you call sit-ins rude? I would call putting up signs that say "whites only" rude, but I don't know how appropriate it would be to classify any response to that as rude.
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May 23, 2016 17:58
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:(it's in the anime forum right now) what
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May 23, 2016 17:59
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SedanChair posted:Would you call sit-ins rude? I would call putting up signs that say "whites only" rude, but I don't know how appropriate it would be to classify any response to that as rude. Yes sit ins are rude. It is rude not to leave when asked. Rudeness is breaking the social decorum. But sometimes the social decorum should be broken because society is hosed up.
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May 23, 2016 18:00
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SurgicalOntologist posted:Or rather, it is rude, but often being rude is justified. Yeah, this is a point that often gets overlooked when the person on the receiving end of the rudeness is someone you support. BLM at that point had gotten around to expecting to get more or less frozen out unless they made a scene and were quite justified, given that history, in interrupting. The intended effect was to highlight the aloofness with which they'd been treated, by raising questions of why they felt a need to take the actions they did. Sure it doesn't seem fair to grab the mic but neither does a claim of progressivism absent legitimate attention to racial issues.
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May 23, 2016 18:00
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Talmonis posted:I think you're just wrong here. Disagreement on tactics doesn't make us enemies, competitors or rivals. I want you to succeed, and will vote with you, and argue with people who poo poo on your cause to make that happen to the best of my ability. If that's not an ally, nothing is. Being 100% in lock step with you is just being you. What are you voting for? My ideas? My thoughts? No, you're voting for the specific actions that I am recommending be taken, what you're calling 'tactics'. If you've rejected those actions - which is what I postulated at the beginning of this, and you agree with by calling it 'disagreement on tactics' - then you're not going to vote for them, you're not going to propose them, and you may even do what you can to sideline them so that your agenda is what's up for voting. Which is exactly the argument BLM was making against Bernie - no one was actually saying, "I think Bernie likes to see cops kill black people", they were saying that his legislative agenda included nothing that was part of BLM's agenda. So, sure, if you vote with me, you're my ally. If you include some of my agenda in yours and ask me to vote for a combination, you're trying to be my ally. But the "no war but class war" is specifically saying, "I don't include anything of yours in my agenda because my agenda should entirely encompass what you need." And that's not being an ally, that's being patronizing, which again, was the complaint BLM had against Bernie. quote:The bolded is on you. Nobody said or implied that decorum was primary. Kvetching about rudeness sure as hell isn't condemnation of BLM. Letters from Birmingham Jail should be probatable at the rate some of you keep flogging people with it badly. It gets brought up because apparently some people still don't actually see that sniping at a movement for its decorum is a way of de-legitimizing it, which later allows you to ignore its agenda entirely.
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May 23, 2016 18:00
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botany posted:what Bookmobile time Last week was PYF, before that BYOB There's a standing link posted in Book Barn though so you can always find it
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May 23, 2016 18:00
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Trabisnikof posted:Yes sit ins are rude. It is rude not to leave when asked. Rudeness is breaking the social decorum. But sometimes the social decorum should be broken because society is hosed up. Was Rosa Parks rude? This is all fascinating.
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May 23, 2016 18:01
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SedanChair posted:Was Rosa Parks rude? This is all fascinating. You realize this dude is agreeing with you. "Rudeness" is based on societal norms. So yes Rosa Parks was rude, as not letting white people sit in a row free of black people was considered rude at that specific time and place. However she was justified in her rudeness because an unfair practice was being shown and eventually magnified because of it.
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May 23, 2016 18:04
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botany posted:what The Book Barn wanders around the forums offering out book recommendations. I think it's already passed through DnD once, but it may return. I like to try follow the horror show that is American politics but this DWS thing completely escapes me. Has she actually done anything wrong?
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May 23, 2016 18:04
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Popular Thug Drink posted:you shouldn't nag people for not reading the article if you yourself failed to read the article Hieronymous Alloy posted:Who is middle class? Read. Carefully. quote:They concluded that taken together, suicides, drugs and alcohol explained the overall increase in deaths. The effect was largely confined to people with a high school education or less. In that group, death rates rose by 22 percent while they actually fell for those with a college education. Unless we're going to ignore the link between Education and Class it is pretty obvious. quote:That finding was reported Monday by two Princeton economists, Angus Deaton, who last month won the 2015 Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Science, and Anne Case. Analyzing health and mortality data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and from other sources, they concluded that rising annual death rates among this group are being driven not by the big killers like heart disease and diabetes but by an epidemic of suicides and afflictions stemming from substance abuse: alcoholic liver disease and overdoses of heroin and prescription opioids. The primary cause of death are life style diseases. Drug and Alcohol abuse are the fastest growing. The Deaths per 100,000 for Heart Disease alone is ~200. "Poisonings" and Suicide is ~50. People are losing the forest for the trees. Xae fucked around with this message at 18:07 on May 23, 2016 |
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May 23, 2016 18:05
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Fans posted:The Book Barn wanders around the forums offering out book recommendations. I think it's already passed through DnD once, but it may return. She's against regulating payday loan places, that's pretty terrible.
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May 23, 2016 18:07
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SedanChair posted:Was Rosa Parks rude? This is all fascinating. Pretty much this: Dexo posted:You realize this dude is agreeing with you.
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May 23, 2016 18:08
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Dexo posted:You realize this dude is agreeing with you. I'm just tweaking him a bit, talking about other contexts where it would be weird to harp on rudeness.
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May 23, 2016 18:08
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Fans posted:The Book Barn wanders around the forums offering out book recommendations. I think it's already passed through DnD once, but it may return. She has presides over a few historically bad elections for down ballot Democrats. It's debatable how much better someone else could have done, but the bottom line is the Democratic party is in retreat across much of the country and a lot of people are understandably blaming the Chairwoman of the DNC for it.
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May 23, 2016 18:10
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Xae posted:Read. Carefully. What matters is the rate of change, though. A certain amount of heart disease is normal. A giant spike in the suicide rate is not; suicide rates in white America are at their highest point in decades, and alcoholism and opioid addiction are similarly spiking. And the reason is lack if opportunity. See, e.g., http://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comics_en/rat-park/ Lower-class white America feels trapped in a cage.
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May 23, 2016 18:11
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SedanChair posted:I'm just tweaking him a bit, talking about other contexts where it would be weird to harp on rudeness. Rude is like the most weaksauce complaint too. Oh god, someone didn't obey some tiny societal rule!!!! Thats why I'm suspect when someone gets dismissed because they said something in a rude way.
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May 23, 2016 18:12
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The average American knows who Bernie Sanders is, not DWS
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May 23, 2016 18:14
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I think it's a really good sign when the worst criticism is that someone wasn't polite enough.
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May 23, 2016 18:14
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Nocturtle posted:I'd argue they're a driving force behind the state-level tea-party surge and Trump's popularity. Non-college educated white males is Trump's largest demographic. He'll still lose the general election of course but arguing these people don't vote isn't plausible, they won Trump the primary. Tea party members tend to be richer (and older) than the average American. Rates of poor whites voting Republican (as defined by being in the lowest third of income) voting has ranged around the 30% mark since 2000 (it was a whole lot worse before then): https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2016/05/02/no-its-not-new-that-working-class-and-poor-whites-vote-republican/ This tracks Trump's polling in the GE BTW. And if you think there hasn't been significant liberal progress in the last few years, I don't know what to tell you. I can pull Gay marriage and anti-discrimination regulations, or equal pay statutes and regulations (including mandating that employers need to break down pay by gender and race), or the CFPB, but the list would be too long.
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May 23, 2016 18:15
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Dexo posted:"Rudeness" is based on societal norms. So yes Rosa Parks was rude, as not letting white people sit in a row free of black people was considered rude at that specific time and place. However she was justified in her rudeness because an unfair practice was being shown and eventually magnified because of it. Yep. So please ignore the kvetching about rudeness, as since the rudeness is justified when examined the kvetching is just shouting at clouds. Eschers Basement posted:What are you voting for? My ideas? My thoughts? No, you're voting for the specific actions that I am recommending be taken, what you're calling 'tactics'. If you've rejected those actions - which is what I postulated at the beginning of this, and you agree with by calling it 'disagreement on tactics' - then you're not going to vote for them, you're not going to propose them, and you may even do what you can to sideline them so that your agenda is what's up for voting. Which is exactly the argument BLM was making against Bernie - no one was actually saying, "I think Bernie likes to see cops kill black people", they were saying that his legislative agenda included nothing that was part of BLM's agenda. But this is just your assumption, and why you're wrong. I'm not so much of an rear end in a top hat as to think that if you don't go with my "cunnin' plans" that I'll sabotage or even ignore what you chose to go with. That'd be insane. Of course I'm going to still support your proposition. Even if I think it will fail, I want it to succeed, because the cause itself is the point of it all. I'm assuming (hopefully rightly) that most other white Liberals who argue this sort of thing are of that same mindset. We care, even if we're opinionated. I think the origin of the complaints are important. I'd not tolerate the same criticism of BLM from a conservative, as I would assume it was an attempt to ignore the agenda entirely, as you've said above. But on that same tack, I'd not assume the same from someone ostensibly in our own camp (without a history of actually trying to sabotage said agenda, in which case why are they there still anyhow?).
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May 23, 2016 18:15
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botany posted:what Rotating Sub Forum
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May 23, 2016 18:18
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Talmonis posted:They do though. They're my family and the families of other rural towns who got hit hard in 2008. They scrambled to pick up the pieces and pay the bills. They took bad loans to keep the house. They got hosed by banks at every turn. When they turned to the government for help, they're universally told "You make too much money" for benefits (they would have to lose their house of 20 years and live in a slum to afford that 34k a year family). So they get no help. They're desperate, angry and terrified. And they vote frantically for anyone who promises them that they still matter. Right now, that person is Trump. And that scares the poo poo out of me. There's something to this. It reminds me of this section from this terrific article examining the low voting rates in poor and minority communities. quote:When welfare reform was passed in 1996, she says she started attending public meetings where men and women in suits would talk about how "those people are lazy, those people won't work." That's when she realized they were talking about her. She says she wondered if they had any idea that she had enrolled in job programs one after another; had seen her kids through public schools and into gainful employment; had applied for more jobs than she can remember and been turned away. "I even tried to work in a sandwich factory," she says. "I make sandwiches all the time at home, but I couldn't get the job!" http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/01/why-are-the-poor-and-minorities-less-likely-to-vote/282896/ But it doesn't change this quote:For starters, low-income citizens are far less likely to vote. According to the U.S. Census, 47 percent of eligible adults with family incomes of less than $20,000 a year voted in 2012 and just one in four voted in the midterm election of 2010. By contrast, those with annual earnings of $100,000 or more turned out at rates of around 80 percent and 60 percent, respectively. Similar disparities are seen in voter registration. When non-citizens and incarcerated persons are included in the count, the gap in voting and registration across income groups is wider still.
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May 23, 2016 18:19
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:What matters is the rate of change, though. A certain amount of heart disease is normal. A giant spike in the suicide rate is not; suicide rates in white America are at their highest point in decades, and alcoholism and opioid addiction are similarly spiking. Surprisingly human society may be slightly more complex than a couple of rats in a cage. http://epirev.oxfordjournals.org/content/26/1/36.full Unfortunately "Relationship between drugs and class is incredibly complex" is not a good headline.
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May 23, 2016 18:19
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Nocturtle posted:Strange, I had assumed the bulk of his support came from less educated individuals based on casually-reading articles like this: Trump voters are not automatically Tea Party voters. Trump voters tend to be widely spread out income wise. http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2016/05/09/20160510_trump_rich.jpg
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May 23, 2016 18:22
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