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computer parts posted:Across the board, drug possession is ~3% of people's worst crime convicted for. If you're using that as a positive statistic that's loving terrifying
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May 21, 2016 19:30
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Aliquid posted:If you're using that as a positive statistic that's loving terrifying I'm not, I'm just mad at pro-drug people who are scared to admit their propaganda was wrong.
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May 21, 2016 19:37
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computer parts posted:I can guarantee that was not the claim. Anti-War on Drugs rhetoric for a while has been "The War on Drugs existed to lock up black people". Now it turns out, hey, the entire criminal justice system exists to lock up black people. War on Drugs stuff (proportionally) actually isn't that bad. But don't black people actually commit robbery/burglery at a higher rate, whereas pretty much all demographics consume marijuana at a similar rate? Thus it's unsurprising that they are arrested more often for say robbery, but it is cause for concern if they are arrested more often for marijuana related crimes. https://www.cga.ct.gov/2008/rpt/2008-R-0008.htm Table 10 and Table 12 Those are numbers from 2000-2004.
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May 21, 2016 20:34
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Powercrazy posted:But don't black people actually commit robbery/burglery at a higher rate, whereas pretty much all demographics consume marijuana at a similar rate? Thus it's unsurprising that they are arrested more often for say robbery, but it is cause for concern if they are arrested more often for marijuana related crimes. Relative to their own races, they aren't convicted more for marijuana related crimes. That's the whole point. 3-4% of black people in prison are in prison for drug possession. 3-4% of white people in prison are in prison for drug possession. 3-4% of Hispanics, etc. The issue is that the criminal justice system as a whole is racist against black people.
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May 21, 2016 21:12
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computer parts posted:The data doesn't actually support this. That taken at face value isn't the whole story. I'd expect the severity of sentence and what happens when you try to rejoin society to be huge factors*. If you can't get a decent job then you'll be more likely to become a career criminal. Which I think is what I think you're getting at when referring to systemic racism. * I was looking at Bureau of Justice stats and they show high recidivism rates (76%) for drug possession but the summary at least doesn't get into severity of sentence. They do say that ~18% of re-offenders did so for drug money. It could be drug-use or criminal history that results in a lack of work and money.
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May 21, 2016 21:51
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size1one posted:That taken at face value isn't the whole story. I'd expect the severity of sentence and what happens when you try to rejoin society to be huge factors*. If you can't get a decent job then you'll be more likely to become a career criminal. Which I think is what I think you're getting at when referring to systemic racism. You can't get a decent job if you have a conviction at all.
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May 21, 2016 21:59
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computer parts posted:The data doesn't actually support this. That is an incredibly myopic statement. First off, you're ignoring non-violent distribution and trafficking convictions that can only exist because of the war on drugs. And then there's the part where the war on drugs is pretty much solely responsible for the price of drugs and the state of drug market. A significant portion (though probably impossible to peg exactly) of arrests and convictions for violent and property crimes are due to people going to extreme measures to fund artificially expensive habits and the lack of legal dispute resolution in drug markets.
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May 21, 2016 22:45
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computer parts posted:Relative to their own races, they aren't convicted more for marijuana related crimes. That's the whole point. 3-4% of black people in prison are in prison for drug possession. 3-4% of white people in prison are in prison for drug possession. 3-4% of Hispanics, etc. For sure. I agree the criminal justice system is more racist against black people, but how does that count against wanting to legalize drugs? I guess I'm confused about what you are arguing itt.
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May 21, 2016 23:14
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Powercrazy posted:For sure. I agree the criminal justice system is more racist against black people, but how does that count against wanting to legalize drugs? I guess I'm confused about what you are arguing itt. A historically common argument for legalization was "The War on Drugs just exists to lock up black people". That is wrong, and people ITT (most notably AreWeDrunkYet) deny that the argument was ever used: AreWeDrunkYet posted:Who ever said there would be an impact of the proportional disparity on arrest rates? The claim was always simply that there would be fewer racially disparate arrests because there would be an absolute reduction in unnecessary arrests. The data since legalization has supported that, and even the article says as much.
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May 21, 2016 23:53
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computer parts posted:A historically common argument for legalization was "The War on Drugs just exists to lock up black people". That is wrong, and people ITT (most notably AreWeDrunkYet) deny that the argument was ever used: You're getting your logic mixed up. The war on drugs primarily exists to lock up people with an emphasis on black people, that much is pretty obviously true. That doesn't mean that much of the rest of the justice system doesn't also work towards that same goal, and ending the war on drugs only addresses a part of that larger problem. But again, please do cite where anyone ever claimed that ending the war on drugs would magically end all of the structural racism of the criminal justice system, rather than to mitigate some of those effects.
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May 22, 2016 00:06
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:You're getting your logic mixed up. The war on drugs primarily exists to lock up people with an emphasis on black people, that much is pretty obviously true. That doesn't mean that much of the rest of the justice system doesn't also work towards that same goal, and ending the war on drugs only addresses a part of that larger problem. By virtue of focusing on the racial impact of the War on Drugs exclusively, you give the impression that it is uniquely/extremely focused on disenfranchising black people. This is false. AreWeDrunkYet posted:But again, please do cite where anyone ever claimed that ending the war on drugs would magically end all of the structural racism of the criminal justice system, rather than to mitigate some of those effects. That's the thing, it doesn't even do that. computer parts fucked around with this message at 00:18 on May 22, 2016 |
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May 22, 2016 00:13
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computer parts posted:By virtue of focusing on the racial impact of the War on Drugs exclusively, you give the impression that it is uniquely/extremely focused on disenfranchising black people. This is false. Do we need to pull out the Anslinger and Ehrlichman quotes? The war on drugs was in fact designed to target and disenfranchise undesirables, with a focus on black people. computer parts posted:That's the thing, it doesn't even do that. It does exactly that. The absolute number of people, a disproportionate (to the population) number of them black, now being convicted for drug offenses has decreased in states that have legalized. Reducing the scope of the war on drugs further will only enhance that effect. The basic fact is that fewer black (and other!) people are now having their lives ruined for absurd reasons than pre-legalization, this is a good thing. That the rest of the justice system remains racist is a separate issue, but at least now fewer people are being impacted by that monstrosity.
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May 22, 2016 00:25
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Idk looking at the percentage of people locked up in prison for drugs as their worse crime seems and concluding that the war on drugs isn't racially motivated seems incredibly specious, especially when you don't even show anyone where you're getting your numbers It's almost like you're pulling the classic "but will it end racism" mode of concern trolling because you don't like potheads
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May 22, 2016 00:25
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rscott posted:Idk looking at the percentage of people locked up in prison for drugs as their worse crime seems and concluding that the war on drugs isn't racially motivated seems incredibly specious, especially when you don't even show anyone where you're getting your numbers Table 11
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May 22, 2016 00:37
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15.7% of the prison population (that's over 200,000 people, by the way, and over 80,000 black people) in 2015 had a non-violent drug offense as their worst crime, and that 15.7% was much, much blacker than the population. And this ignores all of the violent and property crimes driven by prohibition. You're making his point for him. e: You seem to be having trouble grasping numbers, so let's try simplifying: Let's say we have a country of 100,000 people, 450 in prison. 15,000 are black, 150 of them are in prison. 15% of all people in prison are there for drug crimes. Pre-war on drugs: Overall pop: 450 in prison, .45% of the population Black pop: 150 in prison, 1% of the population Post-war on drugs: Overall pop: 382 in prison, .38% of the population Black pop: 128 in prison, .85% of the population In both absolute and relative terms, ending the war on drugs reduces the systemic racism imposed by the criminal justice system. AreWeDrunkYet fucked around with this message at 00:51 on May 22, 2016 |
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May 22, 2016 00:43
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Going by those numbers, 40% of prisoners are black, 16% of whom are in there for drug crimes, compared to 14.5% of whites and hispanics. Ending the war on drugs will certainly be good, but it's not clear it'll reduce the 'systematic racism imposed by the criminal justice system.' edit: those numbers are for state prisons, racial disparity is much more noticeable at the federal level, but they also have far fewer prisoners. Xandu fucked around with this message at 01:46 on May 22, 2016 |
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May 22, 2016 01:43
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Xandu posted:Going by those numbers, 40% of prisoners are black, 16% of whom are in there for drug crimes, compared to 14.5% of whites and hispanics. This is the key. Even a race-neutral decrease in incarceration disproportionately benefits the black population. By decreasing the scope of the criminal justice system, ending the drug war reduces the systemic racism imposed by it in absolute terms, and in relative terms to the population. That the reduced criminal justice system remains proportionally racist is unfortunate, but does not undermine the argument that ending prohibition reduces the systemic racism faced by the black population. AreWeDrunkYet fucked around with this message at 02:46 on May 22, 2016 |
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May 22, 2016 02:43
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:Do we need to pull out the Anslinger and Ehrlichman quotes? The war on drugs was in fact designed to target and disenfranchise undesirables, with a focus on black people. Well, cocaine was black people's fault.1 Marihuana was those darn Mexicans (Also those vice-craving mormons) and opiates were pushed by the wily Chinese. Each of these groups used their substance of choice to lure in hapless white women. 1 http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9901E5D61F3BE633A2575BC0A9649C946596D6CF moller fucked around with this message at 03:56 on May 22, 2016 |
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May 22, 2016 03:53
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What's the story about Mormons and cannabis?
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May 22, 2016 04:51
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It's also worth pointing out that drug crimes are fundamentally different from other crimes at least in the view of people who aren't prohibitionists. With other crimes it's a matter of the crime being punished too harshly. With drug crimes you're talking about "crimes" which in the vast majority of cases have no victim and do not need to exist at all. I think trying to eliminate the situations where you're handing out harsh punishments for victimless crimes would do a lot to restore trust in the criminal justice system even if the absolute reduction in convictions is more modest.
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May 22, 2016 05:30
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:This is the key. Even a race-neutral decrease in incarceration disproportionately benefits the black population. By decreasing the scope of the criminal justice system, ending the drug war reduces the systemic racism imposed by it in absolute terms, and in relative terms to the population. That the reduced criminal justice system remains proportionally racist is unfortunate, but does not undermine the argument that ending prohibition reduces the systemic racism faced by the black population. Right, I completely agree, I interpreted your post as saying that it would not still disproportionately affect blacks.
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May 22, 2016 06:04
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Black people are dis-proportionally hurt by existing laws, even when those laws are enforced equally across demographics. Because of this disproportionate harm, removing specific laws, will disproportionately help black people, but obviously will not impact any other aspect of the legal system. It's not a difficult concept.
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May 22, 2016 08:04
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The law enforcement industry can spew self-serving lies about drug users for generations, but it's important that reformers don't slightly mislead anyone with statistics? Remember this is a war. If the impression that the prisons are filled with 80 percent friendly potheads is good for reform, then it's irresponsible not to try to foster that impression. If the slightly simplified narrative that the war on drugs exists solely to hurt black people causes people to sour against prohibition, then that narrative should be used. At no point in the drug war have the prohibitionists argued in good faith, why do they deserve kid gloves? Eighty Americans are dying every day so drug warriors can feed their famlies. Trying to win debate club points is grotesquely misguided.
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May 22, 2016 12:39
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BowreeBookstore posted:The law enforcement industry can spew self-serving lies about drug users for generations, but it's important that reformers don't slightly mislead anyone with statistics? Remember this is a war. If the impression that the prisons are filled with 80 percent friendly potheads is good for reform, then it's irresponsible not to try to foster that impression. If the slightly simplified narrative that the war on drugs exists solely to hurt black people causes people to sour against prohibition, then that narrative should be used. source your quotes
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May 22, 2016 14:18
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computer parts posted:A historically common argument for legalization was "The War on Drugs just exists to lock up black people". That is wrong, and people ITT (most notably AreWeDrunkYet) deny that the argument was ever used: Its not wrong, you have merely demonstrated (kinda) that it has failed at that goal as much as it has all its others. "Drug war not accomplishing intended goals" is hardly some new relevation, especially when you using one partial metric to prove it. (of course it wasnt intended just to lock up black people but hippies too)
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May 22, 2016 17:31
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Most of the successes of the recreational legalization movement in the past and the ballot measures going forward is due to the Campaign to Regulate Marijuana Like Alcohol. That is what convinced voters not talk of Richard Nixon and the prison industry.
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May 22, 2016 23:08
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What do you guys think the chances of California legalizing in 2016 are?
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May 23, 2016 09:35
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objects in mirror posted:What do you guys think the chances of California legalizing in 2016 are? Pretty good, especially if the medical dispensaries don't try to sabotage the vote again.
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May 23, 2016 17:51
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Yeah the general mood is different. Opposition isn't as fired up and while I'm not in CA I get the feeling that after Alaska, Washington, Oregon and Colorado, there's no way it fails.
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May 23, 2016 18:12
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Does any US State have legal Coffee Houses? I'd love nothing better than to be able hit up a bar after work to grab a beer and a joint.
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May 23, 2016 23:42
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Tab8715 posted:Does any US State have legal Coffee Houses? None have it yet. But reading the text of the Massachusetts initiative that's up for a vote in November, it seems if it passes such establishments may be legal here: https://www.regulatemassachusetts.org/about/initiative-text/
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May 23, 2016 23:53
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Tab8715 posted:Does any US State have legal Coffee Houses? Fairly certain Alaska has this in the works.
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May 24, 2016 20:27
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There were rumors of the city of Denver working to allow on-premises consumption at marijuana-only bars, but I haven't heard anything new about it lately...
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May 24, 2016 20:29
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...2299_story.html The budget language republicans are preparing will prevent DC from using ANY funds (whether local or federal) to legalize recreational cannabis. Doesn't say so in the above article (but which does mention republicans using control of DC's budget to push conservative agendas) but Tom Angell confirms it via Twitter: https://twitter.com/tomangell/status/735172741893099520
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May 24, 2016 21:59
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The Man Who Hopes To Stop Marijuana Legalization in California. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-D3l0SfRUI He says weed causes mass shootings in USA and Europe.
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May 28, 2016 12:47
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objects in mirror posted:The Man Who Hopes To Stop Marijuana Legalization in California. Ok. Let's assume marijuana causes mass shootings. Over 100 million Americans have consumed marijuana, so maybe you can finesse some sort of correlations out of that massive loving data set. There's still the issue that over 100 million Americans have consumed marijuana despite over 70 years of marijuana prohibition. Marijuana prohibition clearly failed. Advocating for more prohibition is advocating for more failure. Failure that costs taxpayers enormous sums of money, wastes law enforcement resources and destroys families. End the failure instead.
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May 28, 2016 15:45
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Is there a decent 'history of marijuana from prehistory to now' book that is not written by crystalhippies and is actually properly researched and sourced?
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May 28, 2016 20:05
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showbiz_liz posted:Is there a decent 'history of marijuana from prehistory to now' book that is not written by crystalhippies and is actually properly researched and sourced? I highly recommend Cannabis: A History by Martin Booth . It's a good history without devolving into useless conjecture/over focus on counter culture.
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May 28, 2016 21:43
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For anyone wanting a very up-to-the-minute explanation of DC weed, Fusion just put out a 1hr documentary about DC's very odd legal gray area, including the famous "Kush God" franchise with the leaf-painted cars parked on busy public streets that will accept your donation to their NGO, make you sign a waiver saying you expect nothing back, and wouldn't ya know it within a block of walking away from the car some nice stranger tends to walk up and hand you weed. Just got back to DC after a year in Africa and cannabis is just all over the place here, but nobody seems too bothered by it. http://fusion.net/story/304814/marijuana-washington-documentary/
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May 28, 2016 21:48
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Spoondick posted:Ok. Let's assume marijuana causes mass shootings. Over 100 million Americans have consumed marijuana, so maybe you can finesse some sort of correlations out of that massive loving data set. There's still the issue that over 100 million Americans have consumed marijuana despite over 70 years of marijuana prohibition. Marijuana prohibition clearly failed. Advocating for more prohibition is advocating for more failure. Failure that costs taxpayers enormous sums of money, wastes law enforcement resources and destroys families. End the failure instead. There's no point in trying to rebut them.
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May 28, 2016 21:55
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