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Jabor posted:So in your worldview, any shuffle that introduces some amount of randomness automatically introduces the same amount of randomness?
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May 29, 2016 03:47
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Rinkles posted:Otoh, condescending ridicule of the possibility of things being a bit more complicated, is good content? Ok, here is some content: more information about shuffling and randomness than you have time to read tonight.
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May 29, 2016 03:54
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Drafted RW Goodstuffs and won a draft for the first time ever going 2-0-1 (I think I actually tied for first but  ) Won eight packs.Most of my friends don't give a poo poo about Magic, so I'm bragging here. 
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May 29, 2016 04:16
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Soul Glo posted:Drafted RW Goodstuffs and won a draft for the first time ever going 2-0-1 (I think I actually tied for first but What sets and what cards did you use? My LGS just did a FNM draft with Conspiracy. I like my LGS.
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May 29, 2016 04:26
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There are a 125 new replies to the mtg thread? oh gently caress.mcmagic posted:I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that if his intent wasn't to gain an advantage that it's a warning and not a DQ. If you accept that someone who mana weaves then shuffles enough to randomize their deck, why mana weave? The answer is don't. Because while a player might have some superstition about it, if your deck is sufficiently random then it was pointless. However, if your deck is not sufficiently randomized, then you have cheated. It is cheating because if your deck has a better distribution of lands and spells consistently after your mana weave, then the deck isn't sufficiently random, and you are stacking your deck. You have to accept that random means "any possible outcome of the order of cards. That means sometime, someone is shuffling a magic deck and the outcome is every land is on top of every spell. Sometimes every spell is on top of every land. Sometime every card is in alphabetical order, and so on and so on. Those are all possible random outcomes. However if you find that most of the time you get a pleasant mix of spells to lands, then your shuffle isn't random enough and you are cheating. The penalty issue is this. If you mana weave a deck, but protest that it is for no advantage, that sounds silly right? I do a thing while I know it is pointless? What if I told you that I look at my deck while I shuffle it and that I often fail to change the top card of my deck, but I'm not manipulating it, just a superstition of mine. We can't look inside a person to judge intent, we can only judge them by their actions. Mana weaving is either pointless, or cheating, but if you fall to the not cheating side of things, then just never do it. Then nobody can accuse you of cheating. Its really easy. jassi007 fucked around with this message at 05:00 on May 29, 2016 |
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May 29, 2016 04:58
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Oraculum Animi posted:What sets and what cards did you use? SOI. My all-stars were Town Gossipmonger, Apothecary Geist(s), Thraben Inspector(s), Bygone Bishop, Fiery Temper, Ravenous Bloodseeker, Insolent Neonate, etc. Just curved out every game, never ran into many mana problems. I first picked a Lambholt Pacifist, a few white cards and another green card when I got passed the Fiery Temper, switched colors and never looked back. Last time I went 0-2 and my round three opponent dropped. Listening and heeding Limited Resources works wonders, turns out!
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May 29, 2016 05:04
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Split the deck into two piles. If there are n cards left in the first pile and m cards left in the second pile, add the bottom card of the first pile to the top of the output deck with probability n/(n+m) and otherwise add the bottom card of the second pile. Repeat the previous step until both piles are empty and you're left with a single deck. This same model is used to describe both riffle and mash shuffling. Note that this process involves random elements. That is because the riffle shuffle is in fact a shuffle, and not, as Rinkles believes, a purely deterministic process. The reason you are getting dogpiled is that you are asking questions far above your level of understanding for the answers to be meaningful. Asking whether we have scientifically proven that riffle and mash shuffles are the same while believing the riffle shuffle involves no randomness at all is, in MtG terms, like asking at what layer the Blue-Eyes White Dragon's SBA ability applies. It's fine to not know things, but maybe don't assume everyone else is equally in the dark? Lottery of Babylon fucked around with this message at 05:14 on May 29, 2016 |
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May 29, 2016 05:06
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Holy loving crap guys I've seen a lot of things on these forums that made me go "this is the worst" but the shuffling argument is literally the worst
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May 29, 2016 05:17
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Soul Glo posted:SOI. My all-stars were Town Gossipmonger, Apothecary Geist(s), Thraben Inspector(s), Bygone Bishop, Fiery Temper, Ravenous Bloodseeker, Insolent Neonate, etc. Just curved out every game, never ran into many mana problems. I drafted a really fun UR spells deck last night. I went 2-1 for the evening, my first match my draws just didn't line up well to his, but the other two games my deck fired on all cylinders. Round 2 game 1 was a real grindy game that ended with me Rise from the tides for 9, then exiling geist blast to copy it for 8 more zombies. 
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May 29, 2016 05:19
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Lottery of Babylon posted:Split the deck into two piles. If there are n cards left in the first pile and m cards left in the second pile, add the bottom card of the first pile to the top of the output deck with probability n/(n+m) and otherwise add the bottom card of the second pile. Repeat the previous step until both piles are empty and you're left with a single deck. I poorly formulated my first example (which was about the methodology, but as stated didn't involve an actual shuffle), of course I know shuffling isn't deterministic. But enough.
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May 29, 2016 05:26
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jassi007 posted:I drafted a really fun UR spells deck last night. I went 2-1 for the evening, my first match my draws just didn't line up well to his, but the other two games my deck fired on all cylinders. Round 2 game 1 was a real grindy game that ended with me Rise from the tides for 9, then exiling geist blast to copy it for 8 more zombies. Does Rise work like that? I think by the time the first copy of the spell resolves Geistblast is exiled, right?
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May 29, 2016 05:32
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sponszi posted:Does Rise work like that? I think by the time the first copy of the spell resolves Geistblast is exiled, right? I'm not sure, you could be correct. I think we didn't really consider it because honestly 16 or 17 zombies he was really really dead.
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May 29, 2016 05:39
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We just did a Chaos draft at my LGS. I opened Modern Masters 2015, Zendikar, and Avacyn Restored, in that order. First picked Argent Sphinx, started in R/U, and then pivoted into R/W after opening Day of Judgment. Opened old Sigarda in pack 3 and splashed for it. Ended up winning all my matches with this silly deck: Anointer of Champions Thraben Inspector Insolent Neonate Territorial Roc x2 Sunspear Shikari Kor Skyfisher Gibbering Fiend Angel's Tomb Hardened Berserker Kolaghan Forerunners Bloodfray Giant Inspiring Captain x2 Atarka Eftreet Firefiend Elemental Atarka Pummeler Sprinting Warbrute Sigarda, Host of Herons Angelic Purge Sarkhan's Rage Day of Judgment True-Faith Censer Selesnya Guildgate 1 Forest 7 Mountains 8 Plains
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May 29, 2016 05:43
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jassi007 posted:I'm not sure, you could be correct. I think we didn't really consider it because honestly 16 or 17 zombies he was really really dead. He's right but yeah, in any normal draft scenario it doesn't matter.
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May 29, 2016 05:52
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Lottery of Babylon posted:Split the deck into two piles. If there are n cards left in the first pile and m cards left in the second pile, add the bottom card of the first pile to the top of the output deck with probability n/(n+m) and otherwise add the bottom card of the second pile. Repeat the previous step until both piles are empty and you're left with a single deck. And this is the point of contention - the riffle shuffle model doesn't accurately describe a mash shuffle. In a riffle shuffle, it is possible (though unlikely) for a large chunk of cards to all come from the same deck. In a mash shuffle, this is literally impossible for a large-enough chunk - the physical size of the cards constrains how "imperfect" the shuffle can be. So each shuffle introduces less randomness than the model expects.
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May 29, 2016 05:57
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jassi007 posted:I drafted a really fun UR spells deck last night. I went 2-1 for the evening, my first match my draws just didn't line up well to his, but the other two games my deck fired on all cylinders. Round 2 game 1 was a real grindy game that ended with me Rise from the tides for 9, then exiling geist blast to copy it for 8 more zombies. That's a lot of zombies. I did do one incredibly stupid thing. Attacked with a creature, got blocked by a devil token, Fiery Tempered the token to keep my creature alive. Opponent: Okay, devil dies, one damage to your creature, it dies. Me: 
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May 29, 2016 06:18
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So how about those Eternal Masters guys??? Are we digging the set? Is everyone ready to spend $50 to draft a Worldgorger Dragon and a Jareth?! What glaring omissions can YOU think of? Rishadan Port? Imperial Recruiter? Goyf (lol?) Mystic Snake? Not having a slightly better Plains as one of the white Mythics instead of say, Ravages of War or Stoneforge or something??!! Please shut up about shuffling you giant bunch of idiots this is the literal worst thing ever to happen in this thread. Edit: What's everyone's favorite basics? My favorite island is TSP 289 but I need some nice Plains for Death and Taxes. suicidesteve fucked around with this message at 06:39 on May 29, 2016 |
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May 29, 2016 06:35
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I like that mirrodin plain that's just a bunch of spikes. I have a couple in foil and they look cool. The kamigawa island panorama is cool too.
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May 29, 2016 06:50
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suicidesteve posted:Edit: What's everyone's favorite basics? My favorite island is TSP 289 but I need some nice Plains for Death and Taxes. M12 sky goatse, obviously. Joking aside, I quite like Jon Avon's wheat field from Invasion (the art's been reprinted a bunch), and Chippy's desert from Alara.
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May 29, 2016 06:56
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Unglued (not Unhinged) for black-bordered; white-bordered, some of the P3K ones are really nice but if I'm being honest with myself those are mostly placeholders until I inevitably go crazy and buy Summers.
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May 29, 2016 07:07
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Aside from Mirage basics which are unambiguously the best basics when you consider an entire set as a whole, I like the Grixis and Esper basics a lot.
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May 29, 2016 07:09
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I really like all of Veronique Meignaud's basic lands, but especially the Island.
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May 29, 2016 07:12
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Are there any foil basic lands from older sets around onslaught to invasion that are worth a decent amount, or are they all pretty much 1-2$ I know some people really like certain artists, and I used to collect foil lands before I quit.
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May 29, 2016 07:41
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DangerDongs posted:Are there any foil basic lands from older sets around onslaught to invasion that are worth a decent amount, or are they all pretty much 1-2$ The lightning storm Plains from onslaught are like $6 foils I believe, they're pretty nice looking.
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May 29, 2016 07:55
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Le me just shut down the best lands discussion I shuffle by tossing my deck in the air, catching 7 cards before it lands and gently caress the deck cos if you can't with with your opening hand I don't know what to tell you
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May 29, 2016 08:34
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Favorite plains: the Netherlands euro land Favorite island: unglued Favorite swamp: that block one from alara Favorite mountain: one of the kamigawa one, I don't know the collector number Favorite forest: unhinged
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May 29, 2016 10:53
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Gerry T started a podcast, for anyone into that sort of thing. https://soundcloud.com/user-121566285
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May 29, 2016 11:24
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Jabor posted:And this is the point of contention - the riffle shuffle model doesn't accurately describe a mash shuffle. Every shuffle method depends on exactly how you do it ("perfect" riffle shuffles aren't random at all, for the canonical example). Mash shuffling is most similar to riffle shuffling, so using one as an approximation of the other isn't a terrible idea and in general you should be over shuffling rather than under shuffling anyway (time taken to do 8 riffles is not much less than the time taken to do 10 or 12 so you may as well). That is the best answer you're going to get, because I doubt anyone has studied mash shuffling (it's essentially impossible to do with unsleeved cards, so it's only really used by CCG players who can't riffle shuffle). There is literally nothing more else to say on it without actually creating a model.
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May 29, 2016 11:37
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#ShuffleGate
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May 29, 2016 12:01
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Molybdenum posted:Favorite swamp: that block one from alara The Chippy one? That's probably my favorite too. It looks so nice in foil. MrL_JaKiri posted:Every shuffle method depends on exactly how you do it ("perfect" riffle shuffles aren't random at all, for the canonical example). Mash shuffling is most similar to riffle shuffling, so using one as an approximation of the other isn't a terrible idea and in general you should be over shuffling rather than under shuffling anyway (time taken to do 8 riffles is not much less than the time taken to do 10 or 12 so you may as well). HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT CARDS BREAKING THE COLOR PIE?????
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May 29, 2016 12:30
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That guy cheated, and he's lucky he wasn't killed
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May 29, 2016 12:37
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Molybdenum posted:Favorite plains: the Netherlands euro land I am something of a basic lands master sommelier, and I can tell you that the Japanese swamp is the best one. The Chinese plains are the best plains too.
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May 29, 2016 12:41
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Nah this is the best basic 
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May 29, 2016 13:47
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How much of a basic bitch does it make me out to be to say I prefer any basics by John Avon, especially the unhinged full arts? E: didn't even realize my sorta pun ._. InterrupterJones fucked around with this message at 14:02 on May 29, 2016 |
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May 29, 2016 13:59
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mfcrocker posted:It's been pointed out you're being a daftie but to be clear: this is a Magic the Gathering tournament and the worst consequence from a DQ is that you won't be allowed to play Magic the Gathering tournaments any more. This isn't a bloody court. But it's McMagic. That's like telling a Mr. Baseball he can't play baseball. What else does he even live for?
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May 29, 2016 14:03
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Don't know about no. 1s, but these are some favorites (50% nostalgia)          
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May 29, 2016 14:12
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my takeaway from the last few pages is that it's literally impossible to shuffle a deck of cards
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May 29, 2016 14:24
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I've always wanted full art versions of the original Ravnica lands. Large city sprawls that still made it clear which part of the pie they represented was pretty awesome.
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May 29, 2016 14:26
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AlternateNu posted:I've always wanted full art versions of the original Ravnica lands. Large city sprawls that still made it clear which part of the pie they represented was pretty awesome. Yeah my draft box has a set of 20 of each basic, all foil Ravnica lands (for both OG and RTR sets). They're pretty as gently caress.
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May 29, 2016 14:31
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little munchkin posted:my takeaway from the last few pages is that it's literally impossible to shuffle a deck of cards The deck is never sufficiently randomized. We live in sin.
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May 29, 2016 14:46
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