|
Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:I think it's Turkey? that has the best "Get out of service" requirement. You don't have to serve if you are gay, but you have to prove it by bringing in a photo of you having gay sex, and you have to be the catcher, not the pitcher.
|
#
?
May 27, 2016 16:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 10:30 |
|
|
Turkey is committed to ensuring its gays experience all that life has to offer!  JK if you're a top you don't count as gay in most Middle Eastern cultures.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2016 16:38
|
|
|
They should publish that archive as a Taschen book
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2016 16:45
|
|
|
tooterfish posted:Not really, it's definitely not the norm for liberal democracies. There's only four countries in Western Europe that still do it for example, and that's mostly due to inertia IMO: Switzerland, Greece, Norway and Austria. Conscription isn't what Starship Troopers has going on though. Its national service is neither obligatory nor necessarily military. Anyway, it's foolish to say that "liberal democracies"* aren't into conscription or national service; go sixty years back and there'd be plenty more countries highlighted. It comes and goes. It's just struck me that the initial idea might have been inspired by the Roman Republic/early Empire and the promise of citizenship for demobbed soldiers. *Athenian-style democracy is weirder and probably less pleasant to most people than Fascism.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2016 16:53
|
|
|
House Louse posted:Anyway, it's foolish to say that "liberal democracies"* aren't into conscription or national service; go sixty years back and there'd be plenty more countries highlighted. It comes and goes.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2016 17:34
|
|
|
mcustic posted:Anyway, coming down after a binge of non-fic about the Middle East, Islam, Israel and Hamas, which left me all exhausted and bitter, I picked up Prophets by N. Andrew Swann hoping for some trashy space opera action. Then I opened the book and, bang, Space Islam. It's pretty bland Space Islam, as things go. The POV Catholicism gets more attention and there's the kind of batty tiger moreau religion. Unfortunately we only get a little bit later of the Bakunin Church of Jesus Christ Avenger with its paladins in power armor.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2016 17:50
|
|
|
The society in Starship Troopers doesn't mandate service, it says that only those who have served have full citizenship. There's a difference between making every citizen serve, and granting citizenship to those who have earned it. There's also the bit where Johnny is talking to the recruiter and the recruiter says getting into military service is actually fairly competitive because there are more people that want the prestige of that job than available positions.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2016 20:15
|
|
|
Internet Wizard posted:The society in Starship Troopers doesn't mandate service, it says that only those who have served have full citizenship. There's a difference between making every citizen serve, and granting citizenship to those who have earned it. Right, you could gain full citizenship by mopping the floors at a lab on Pluto or something
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2016 23:45
|
|
|
tooterfish posted:It might come and go (although I'm not convinced), but right now it's definitely mostly gone... i.e. it's uncommon, or not the norm. I don't see how what I said is foolish in that context. You said that conscription is unusual now, therefore it's always unusual in liberal democracies, which seemed foolish to me. There wasn't much conscription in the nineteenth century, then there was in the early/mid twentieth century (in Europe at least). Whether or not a country has conscription has very little to do wiht its political system, it's to do with necessity.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2016 00:47
|
|
|
It's also has to do with the level of technology used in warfare - thinking into the future conscription feels more unlikely as technologies become more complex. I wouldn't disclose the political dimension either because "necessity" has to be determined somehow.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2016 14:29
|
|
|
House Louse posted:You said that conscription is unusual now, therefore it's always unusual in liberal democracies, which seemed foolish to me. Frankly I wasn't even the first one to make this point, so I've no loving idea why you've even latched on to me for this.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2016 15:03
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:Heinlein actually wrote a story where the protagonist went back in time, had a sex change, had sex with himself, and gave birth to himself. ("All You Zombies")  Someone was telling me about this at a party a week ago, and I said 'that sounds similar to Heinlein; he wrote a story about a character traveling back in time to become his own dad." Re-reading Hyperion Cantos and for the most part it still holds up. There's something kind of regressive about it, though. Humans have left earth hundreds of years before, but all the historical references are mostly from the 20th century or earlier so that when someone or something pops up from after that point, it sticks out like a sore thumb. I don't know if this is Simmons being a bit lazy about world-building his inter-planetary civilization, or if it's an intentional choice to reinforce the theme of humanity in stagnation.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2016 18:22
|
|
|
tooterfish posted:It might come and go (although I'm not convinced), but right now it's definitely mostly gone... i.e. it's uncommon, or not the norm. I don't see how what I said is foolish in that context. I don't know about the rest of the world, but around here the conscription is just "suspended". The constitution still says the military service is mandatory for the male citizens, but right now the military just does not conscript people. But they could it if the need arises. House Louse posted:You said that conscription is unusual now, therefore it's always unusual in liberal democracies, which seemed foolish to me. There wasn't much conscription in the nineteenth century, then there was in the early/mid twentieth century (in Europe at least). Whether or not a country has conscription has very little to do wiht its political system, it's to do with necessity. IIRC the concept of a conscript army (or a "citizen army") was pretty progressive when it was proposed, as it gave the weapons to the "citizens" instead of the usual morons (paid mercenaries and/or aristocrats). Amberskin fucked around with this message at 18:50 on May 28, 2016 |
|
#
?
May 28, 2016 18:47
|
|
|
Kesper North posted:Banks is no less cynical or brutal. He's just far more subtle. I just finished Inversions last night (Culture books hit me weirdly, I almost always devour them in a sitting or two but then I have to take time out to digest them and 'get ready' for the next) and holy poo poo can Banks be cyclical and brutal. Everything about the Sechroon and Hiliiti story, the Doctor and DeWar... gently caress, that book was brutal as hell.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2016 18:50
|
|
|
Amberskin posted:I don't know about the rest of the world, but around here the conscription is just "suspended". The constitution still says the military service is mandatory for the male citizens, but right now the military just does not conscript people. But they could it if the need arises. In my country some people argue that we should reintroduce conscription since it would serve as a social bonding method in our society, because in the "good old" days everyone did it and you had to spend 7.5-15 months in the company of people from various social classes and regions. Also, of course almost only men. As someone who have actually done conscription, I say gently caress that poo poo.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2016 19:50
|
|
|
I think at the end of the day, unless your national service involves literally the same experience that military volunteers get, it's pointless. You basically have a bunch of 18 year olds living together doing things on a timetable that they don't want to do. You have literally recreated school and/or a poo poo university, and it's all on taxpayers' money.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2016 19:57
|
|
|
Amberskin posted:IIRC the concept of a conscript army (or a "citizen army") was pretty progressive when it was proposed, as it gave the weapons to the "citizens" instead of the usual morons (paid mercenaries and/or aristocrats).
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2016 20:16
|
|
|
To be fair, at least for ancient Greek citizen armies, it was pretty much the spark for of the idea of citizenship, and from there citizen rights and citizen independence from debt/serfdom/slavery
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2016 20:41
|
|
|
Strategic Tea posted:You have literally recreated school and/or a poo poo university, and it's all on taxpayers' money. Yes hello, welcome to Europe 
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2016 21:21
|
|
|
there wolf posted:
That is actually way more hosed up that the song I'm My Own Grampa by Ray Stevens. That's actually an accomplishment. For the uneducated : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYlJH81dSiw
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2016 22:21
|
|
|
tooterfish posted:Haha, you just made that up. I said no such loving thing. I said it's "not the norm" now as a counter to the statement that it's "not unusual" in democracies outside of America now. Fine, whatever. anilEhilated posted:It's also has to do with the level of technology used in warfare - thinking into the future conscription feels more unlikely as technologies become more complex. I wouldn't disclose the political dimension either because "necessity" has to be determined somehow. You're right in terms of what the real future will be like, of course, but the futures sf dreams up are very different to what actually happens. Anything to do with spaceships in sf having crew or battles always seems incredibly old-fashioned to me, I'm barely able to take it seriously. They're a dramatic necessity, but they're an outdated plot convention like nobody having mobile phones, or mixed-race people being untrustworthy. I know I'm stating the obvious; I find this intellectual blind spot fascinating.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 01:25
|
|
|
Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:That is actually way more hosed up that the song I'm My Own Grampa by Ray Stevens. That's actually an accomplishment. For the uneducated : There's also Gerrold's "The Man Who Folded Himself".
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 02:24
|
|
|
House Louse posted:Fine, whatever. It's possible for it still to be cool and dramatic. Like in Fire Upon the Deep where yes I know technically there were crews but the actual engagement was all automated and happened faaaar too quickly for human type intelligences to follow. Not all writers are up to that though.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 03:02
|
|
|
Spaceships with crews shooting broadsides are going to be around forever for the same reason we've got dragons and magic swords. It's a cool fantasy.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 03:12
|
|
|
I have a hard time buying crewed ships as being an outdated convention akin to ignoring the existence of mobile phones. To effectively remove crews you have to create a strong AI. Without strong AI, nothing will be creative, intuitive, or capable enough to handle all the situations, especially if you're dealing with things at extrasolar/interstellar ranges. And even if you have that strong AI, you have the issue where people may not want to put their ships into the hands of AI, because once you reach that point you've basically gone all Polity/Culture and handed the reins over to the Minds.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 04:37
|
|
|
General Battuta posted:Spaceships with crews shooting broadsides are going to be around forever for the same reason we've got dragons and magic swords. It's a cool fantasy. I also think that it's going to be more prevalent in real life for longer than people might expect, but who knows
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 05:05
|
|
|
Khizan posted:I have a hard time buying crewed ships as being an outdated convention akin to ignoring the existence of mobile phones. Interestingly in the Polity books, older class dreadnoughts are mindlinked humans/ais to keep the ai under control. Later version are all ai.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 07:29
|
|
|
Neurosis posted:It's possible for it still to be cool and dramatic. Like in Fire Upon the Deep where yes I know technically there were crews but the actual engagement was all automated and happened faaaar too quickly for human type intelligences to follow. Not all writers are up to that though. It's basically mandatory at this point for someone to bring up the battle in Surface Detail. The sentient warship has one passenger, who is watching the battle by video:  Oh poo poo it's coming right for you movemovemove Nah don't worry this all happened three seconds ago, we won and you're watching the recording at 0.01% speed.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 08:25
|
|
|
The Age of Em: Work, Love and Life when Robots Rule the Earth is a recent work of weird-rear end futurism some of you might be interested in. Or at the very least, this overview of it. It's a very smart, very weird guy extrapolating what the future where we've learned to digitize consciousness would be like.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 08:30
|
|
|
Cardiac posted:Interestingly in the Polity books, older class dreadnoughts are mindlinked humans/ais to keep the ai under control. Later version are all ai. Just to give the initial "kill" order. After that, the AI takes complete control.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 09:15
|
|
|
General Battuta posted:Spaceships with crews shooting broadsides are going to be around forever for the same reason we've got dragons and magic swords. It's a cool fantasy. It's more than a cool fantasy, it's drat near vital for readers' engagement with the book. "Oh yeah the battle lasted half a millisecond, this is the highlight reel" is probably accurate but profoundly alienating.* But I still find myself rolling my eyes at e.g. Star Trek. Point being, sf should be analysed rhetorically, not predictively: Gene Roddenberry didn't think we'd invent a warp drive, he just wanted to make Wagon Train to the stars. Maybe it's just the outdatedness of the ideas they're drawing on that I find ridiculous, not the sheer fact of crewed ships. Conestoga wagons, Spitfires and Lancasters, ships-of-the-line, gold prospectors, explorers... they're all more or less culturally dead. Khizan posted:I have a hard time buying crewed ships as being an outdated convention akin to ignoring the existence of mobile phones. I was thinking of interstellar travel when I said that, sorry for not being precise; I can imagine humans travelling to Jupiter or whatever. That said, I think strong AI is probably an easier challenge than interstellar travel, and it's not like people will just decide to click the big red "AIs take over" button. I can imagine the benefits of machinery and drawbacks of keeping humans alive in space combining to make gradually stronger spaceship AI until they're in the driving seat. *Or not, depending on how it's written.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 11:14
|
|
|
there wolf posted:Re-reading Hyperion Cantos and for the most part it still holds up. There's something kind of regressive about it, though. Humans have left earth hundreds of years before, but all the historical references are mostly from the 20th century or earlier so that when someone or something pops up from after that point, it sticks out like a sore thumb. I don't know if this is Simmons being a bit lazy about world-building his inter-planetary civilization, or if it's an intentional choice to reinforce the theme of humanity in stagnation. It's like the observation someone made about Star Trek whenever they mention three famous people from history. Two are always from Earth's pre-21st century era and the third is some alien. Something like, "He's like the worst villains in history, Napoleon, Hitler, and G'sher of Sirus VII."
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 13:20
|
|
|
Isn't Hyperion's Hitler some dude named colonel Horace Glenn-Something? Edit: It's General Horace Glennon-Height Take the plunge! Okay! fucked around with this message at 13:46 on May 29, 2016 |
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 13:43
|
|
|
House Louse posted:It's more than a cool fantasy, it's drat near vital for readers' engagement with the book. "Oh yeah the battle lasted half a millisecond, this is the highlight reel" is probably accurate but profoundly alienating.* But I still find myself rolling my eyes at e.g. Star Trek. Point being, sf should be analysed rhetorically, not predictively: Gene Roddenberry didn't think we'd invent a warp drive, he just wanted to make Wagon Train to the stars. Maybe it's just the outdatedness of the ideas they're drawing on that I find ridiculous, not the sheer fact of crewed ships. Conestoga wagons, Spitfires and Lancasters, ships-of-the-line, gold prospectors, explorers... they're all more or less culturally dead. In the worst thing I've seen in sci-fi recently, Jupiter Ascending's central point of conflict was already solved when the movie was made. It's a bad movie for a lot of reasons, but the sheer pointlessness of "we have to farm humans for genetic material because no one outside of earth ever thought of a 3D printer" just hurt me. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 15:29 on May 29, 2016 |
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 15:26
|
|
|
Nevvy Z posted:In the worst thing I've seen in sci-fi recently, Jupiter Ascendings central point of conflict was already solved when the movie was made. It's a bad movie for a lot of reasons, but the sheer pointlessness of "we have to farm humans for genetic material because no one outside of earth ever thought of a 3D printer" just hurt me. I really want to like the Wachowskis' movies, but only Cloud Atlas holds up for me. Even then, I have to admit that the casting gimmick is a problem, a poor substitute for pretty much everything in the book that didn't make the transfer to film.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 15:32
|
|
|
Solitair posted:I really want to like the Wachowskis' movies, but only Cloud Atlas holds up for me. Even then, I have to admit that the casting gimmick is a problem, a poor substitute for pretty much everything in the book that didn't make the transfer to film. "Bound" is great, although it is not science fiction.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 18:28
|
|
|
Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:That is actually way more hosed up that the song I'm My Own Grampa by Ray Stevens. That's actually an accomplishment. For the uneducated : I may not know my Heinlein, but I know my novelty country songs. "I am My Own Grampa" is a Lonzo and Oscar song written by Moe Jaffe and Dwight Latham way back in the 40's. Ray Stevens version is a popular cover. Mister Kingdom posted:It's like the observation someone made about Star Trek whenever they mention three famous people from history. Two are always from Earth's pre-21st century era and the third is some alien. Exactly! I think it serves the message of the book better in Hyperion, but I still wonder if that was intentional.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 18:50
|
|
|
Thanks for the McDevitt recommendation whoever you were! Read the first two already and it's exactly what I was looking for.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 19:16
|
|
|
House Louse posted:I was thinking of interstellar travel when I said that, sorry for not being precise; I can imagine humans travelling to Jupiter or whatever. That said, I think strong AI is I can imagine the benefits of machinery and drawbacks of keeping humans alive in space combining to make gradually stronger spaceship AI until they're in the driving seat. Yeah, but when you're putting huge amounts of resources and responsibility in the hands of the AI on the grounds that the AI is just better equipped to handle them, you're pretty much walking down the same road as the Polity or the Culture. An unwillingness to do that is why I think that it's perfectly plausible for a civilization to see crewed ships as a cost worth paying.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 23:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 10:30 |
|
|
Khizan posted:Yeah, but when you're putting huge amounts of resources and responsibility in the hands of the AI on the grounds that the AI is just better equipped to handle them, you're pretty much walking down the same road as the Polity or the Culture. An unwillingness to do that is why I think that it's perfectly plausible for a civilization to see crewed ships as a cost worth paying. The cost of not doing AI crewed ships is you lose to anyone who uses AI ships, though. It's like choosing not to industrialize for cultural reasons. Fine, but only if the industrialized nations don't decide to smash you up.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2016 23:50
|
|