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-Troika- posted:Pretty much everything about Cuba being a magical socialist wonderland is a big steaming pile of poo poo, it's not just the doctors. We still haven't forgotten you calling the Conservative Party suckers of left wing dick, better not post again for a few days
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May 30, 2016 22:35
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Saladman posted:words The distortion is caused by the fixed exchange rate, yes. If you want real economic data, use this https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ve.html
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May 30, 2016 22:39
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OfficialGBSCaliph posted:We still haven't forgotten you calling the Conservative Party suckers of left wing dick, better not post again for a few days 'We'? Is there a tankie IRC or something?
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May 30, 2016 22:44
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HorseLord posted:And it's incredibly dodgy to base an argument around the idea that the Cuban people would be better off today if the Fascist dictatorship had continued uninterrupted (or if they had any other government), because then you're comparing the real Cuba that exists with one that doesn't, a Cuba that could be dreamed up to be like whatever you need it to be for it to be superior. It's worth noting that the Batista regime was going down the toilet fast, and even when it was stable the concentration of wealth and property ownership left a great many completely destitute, so there's no reason to give a hypothetical continuation of it the benefit of the doubt. There were a lot of poor people in pre-Castro Cuba. But what Castro did was annihilate the middle class and make everyone poor. Economic growth stagnated while the rest of the region grew. Per-capita calorie consumption *fell* since the 1950s. The gains Cuba has made, other (much poorer) countries have too, largely surpassing it -- and without Cuba's oppressive restrictions on travel, information and political organizing. Main point being: Cuba should be a much wealthier country than it is (wealthier than some European countries), but it's not because it's kept artificially poor by a single-party government. Batista was an awful dictator, but the Communist Party's rationale for ruling the country is a fraud. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 22:51 on May 30, 2016 |
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May 30, 2016 22:45
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Constant Hamprince posted:'We'? Is there a tankie IRC or something? People who have read the thread  chill friend, I'm no Marxist.
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May 30, 2016 22:47
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fnox posted:God drat, I really hope Avianca stays until July. Don't worry bro if that happens you can always go by land to Colomb... oh wait they also closed the border with Colombia, I guess you can ask one of the Cuban doctors how to build a raft.
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May 30, 2016 22:59
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Wikkheiser posted:Yes, I'm undermining the argument that Cuba stacks up well compared to the alternatives. Central to the whole rationale for the Communist Party's existence is the idea that Cuba was an impoverished, agrarian country in the 1950s and progress since then is all thanks to the Party. On the contrary, Cuba was a much wealthier country than many assume, with a large middle class. It had one of the highest literacy rates in Latin America and the 13th lowest infant mortality rate in the world ... in 1957. This is all very correct, and supported by the contemporary discussions going on within Cuba's major commercial stakeholders like United Fruit Co. and associated Cuban financial institutions. What one finds is that, since the communist coup in Cuba, economic inequality has become increasingly stratified between races of individuals, with lighter-skinned individuals disproportionately benefiting from the communist coup. I don't understand how posters can delude themselves into believing the rhetoric of dictators, rather than taking a look at the numbers and judging for themselves. Building a nation and national institutions is extremely difficult, trying work, even in the best of environments. In order for Venezuelans to continue to enjoy human rights, it is their responsibility to give their authoritarians the Mussolini treatment before poo poo gets to where it is today. Once a nation reaches what Venezuelans experience today, the only loving hope is civil war and a long, harsh, process of nation building and capacity expansion whose success is not assured. Good loving job running a nation into the ground worse than Haiti, tho. Can't wait for all the cheap arepas that'll pop up in America soon enough.
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May 30, 2016 23:09
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fnox posted:The distortion is caused by the fixed exchange rate, yes. If you want real economic data, use this https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ve.html quote:Taxes and other revenues:  How?Also deficit as a % of GDP of over 100%, worst in the world.
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May 30, 2016 23:15
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wdarkk posted:
Inflation is taxation on creditors by another name. It is a market-rate tax based on the perception of an issuing authority to pay back upon their promises.
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May 30, 2016 23:18
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Jesus a loving country in collapsing in real time around us and no-one in the international media seems to care that much. I guess Venezulans are going to be the next big expat community here in the states huh. I hope the goon who was going to Sweden makes it out 
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May 30, 2016 23:21
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themrguy posted:Jesus a loving country in collapsing in real time around us and no-one in the international media seems to care that much. I guess Venezulans are going to be the next big expat community here in the states huh. Yeah, this thread rarely fails to make a knot in my gut.
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May 30, 2016 23:23
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OfficialGBSCaliph posted:People who have read the thread Save your denials for San Pedro, comrade. Coronel Discordia's men are already on their way.
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May 30, 2016 23:35
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The lack of information abroad is pretty drat shocking. Like even people close to me here in Spain tend to downplay it and try to make it a light subject, an anecdote yo can share with a Venezuelan. Meanwhile I talk to my mom as often as I can and get in touch with a bunch of people that refer me to others that will make a shipment to Venezuela and insure safety.
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May 30, 2016 23:37
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wdarkk posted:
Most economic metrics aren't designed to handle what happens when you run a country as an enormous Forex scam
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May 30, 2016 23:37
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My Imaginary GF posted:What one finds is that, since the communist coup in Cuba, economic inequality has become increasingly stratified between races of individuals, with lighter-skinned individuals disproportionately benefiting from the communist coup. Don't forget that homosexuals were sentenced to be literally worked to death in the sugar fields and the mentally ill were imprisoned for life until they were shoved onto a boat to the U.S. Cuba is a loving hellhole and the type of people who defend it are...exactly the type of people who would look at Venezuela in 2016 and think "ah yes, socialism is the way."
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May 30, 2016 23:44
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Assuming one looks at Venezuela and sees the implementation of socialism. To see that youd have to be coronel discordia or Sean Penn
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May 30, 2016 23:50
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Constant Hamprince posted:Save your denials for San Pedro, comrade. Coronel Discordia's men are already on their way. Ill denounce anyone and everyone im asked to.
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May 30, 2016 23:51
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TheFallenEvincar posted:Assuming one looks at Venezuela and sees the implementation of socialism. To see that youd have to be coronel discordia or Sean Penn In comparison to all the real implementations of socialism like
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May 30, 2016 23:52
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Any one in venezula that can leave, I suggest you do. Armed squad kills 11 people in Venezuela An armed squad has killed eleven people in Venezuela, including a Colombian national and three minors, according to the Attorney General's office. The impoverished country is descending into violence. The Attorney General's office said the victims were in their homes in Andrés Bello in the northwestern state of Trujillo, when several armed men forced them to move into courtyards where they were shot dead. The victims included adult males aged 18 to 76 and three teenagers aged 15, 16 and 17. The Colombian national was identified as 76-year-old Alberto Diaz Patino. The Spanish-language news agency EFE reported that all of the victims were male. According to a statement, the suspects fled the scene in cars and motorcycles. Two prosecutors have been assigned to the case. http://www.dw.com/en/armed-squad-kills-11-people-in-venezuela/a-19292382
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May 30, 2016 23:52
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Constant Hamprince posted:In comparison to all the real implementations of socialism like The mondragon cooperative
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May 30, 2016 23:55
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Constant Hamprince posted:In comparison to all the real implementations of socialism like
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May 31, 2016 00:02
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Constant Hamprince posted:Most economic metrics aren't designed to handle what happens when you run a country as an enormous Forex scam Not gonna lie, there will be people who make their name studying the descent of Venezuela into Mad Max apocalypse. Not me, though, I do road things. Edit: Admittedly there may be money in studying road warriors in near future Venezuela. Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 00:29 on May 31, 2016 |
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May 31, 2016 00:27
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How strong is the sense of "Venezuelan" national identity as opposed to regional identity? Is there any possibility of the country fracturing?
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May 31, 2016 00:33
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themrguy posted:How strong is the sense of "Venezuelan" national identity as opposed to regional identity? Is there any possibility of the country fracturing? I laid out the options. A lot of what will happen to Venezuela depends who wins the America election in '16. There aren't any good options for American policymakers to deal with Venezuela. If this were 1900, it'd be so loving easy to fix Venezuela. Three hours of diplomacy from offshore Caracas and I loving guarantee you Maduro's head would be served on a platter to whoever wanted it.
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May 31, 2016 00:42
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themrguy posted:How strong is the sense of "Venezuelan" national identity as opposed to regional identity? Is there any possibility of the country fracturing? The civil war scenario is unlikely, the military won't fragment itself, there is a regional identity and even regional accents, but the military and therefore all access to weaponry is centralized. Massive civil unrest and riots may happen, possibly worsened by the heavy weaponry small delinquent groups have managed to accrue, but never escalating into conventional war. fnox fucked around with this message at 00:49 on May 31, 2016 |
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May 31, 2016 00:46
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fnox posted:The civil war scenario is unlikely, the military won't fragment itself, there is a regional identity and even regional accents, but the military and therefore all access to weaponry is centralized. Massive civil unrest and riots may happen, possibly worsened by the heavy weaponry small delinquent groups have managed to accrue, but never escalating into conventional war. *assumes central authority is still able to feed and pay its hired goons. When central authority collapses, time and again the most ruthless warlords are the ones who win out. So loving what if weapons are held in armories? Don't pay the quartermaster for 6 months, and see how loving quickly the armory gets sold to the highest bidder.
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May 31, 2016 00:56
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I suppose Venezuela is going to become the worlds number 1 kleptocracy. I wonder what the governmental branches should be renamed to reflect the fact that venezuela is a kleptocracy.
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May 31, 2016 01:50
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My Imaginary GF posted:This is all very correct, and supported by the contemporary discussions going on within Cuba's major commercial stakeholders like United Fruit Co. and associated Cuban financial institutions. Cuba's entire middle class pretty much fled to the US, taking their skills and competence with them. Just as an example, Cuba was the second country after the US to have nationwide commercial Color TV broadcasting -in 1958. It had only been introduced by RCA in the US four years earlier. In early 1960 or 61, the TV studios of Channel 12 in Havana were gutted and all the RCA color broadcast gear was shipped to Moscow to be Reverse engineered. Now I'm not saying that Color TV was affordable or widely adopted at that time in Cuba, but that there was a level of development in the country pre-Castro that many people seem oblivious to. MullardEL34 fucked around with this message at 08:34 on May 31, 2016 |
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May 31, 2016 08:09
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themrguy posted:How strong is the sense of "Venezuelan" national identity as opposed to regional identity? Is there any possibility of the country fracturing? None of those are very strong. Venezuela has been a country of immigrants for years so most of the (ex)middle class are third or second generation Venezuelans. As for regional identity, there's some, but it's more about a bit of cultural pride and not a complete identity, if that makes sense. Like there's the region of the plains, Los Llanos and they are proud of their culture and way of life, but I don't really see them deciding that they are a separate country or anything like it. There's maybe one region that has a more defined identity, and that's Zulia. However, as Fnox said, the infrastructure is all centralized in Caracas so it would be really hard for even the Zulians to separate themselves from Venezuela, unless backed by Colombia or something like that. Zulia also has a lot of Oil so Maduro would probably react in a heavy handed manner if that was a possibility.
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May 31, 2016 08:23
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Venezuela is not going to splinter into different provinces or any other Tom Clancy bullshit. The country is going to poo poo but at least it's going to poo poo together.
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May 31, 2016 12:22
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themrguy posted:Jesus a loving country in collapsing in real time around us and no-one in the international media seems to care that much. I guess Venezulans are going to be the next big expat community here in the states huh. I think there's been a bunch of articles raising awareness about Venezuela lately. So much so that even pro-regime outlets like venezuelanayalysis and Telesur appear rattled and have even modulated their tone a little (in between describing it all as a CIA plot). The Nick Cohen article comparing Western supporters to sex tourists remains my favourite. In Britain there is radio silence among the well-known leftists who previously supported the Venezuelan regime, such as the leader of the Labour Party Jeremy Corbyn and several of his associates, such as literal-Stalinist media chief Seumas Milne, who wrote this article two years ago: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/09/venezuela-protest-defence-privilege-maduro-elites Borneo Jimmy is real and he is Executive Director of Strategy and Communications for the British Labour Party. I'm really keen to see these sorts put on the spot regarding Venezuela.
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May 31, 2016 15:55
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Luis Almagro has now confirmed there will be an emergency session of the OAS to decide whether or not to apply the Democratic Charter to Maduro's government. It appears they do have the 18 votes to suspend Venezuela after all.
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May 31, 2016 17:35
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And Mercosur are also going to declare Venezuela a dictatorship soon apparently, Maduro's days are numbered.
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May 31, 2016 18:32
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fnox posted:Luis Almagro has now confirmed there will be an emergency session of the OAS to decide whether or not to apply the Democratic Charter to Maduro's government. It appears they do have the 18 votes to suspend Venezuela after all. So much for Maduro's 'charm offensive' in the Caribbean
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May 31, 2016 18:44
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The OAS also released a report on Venezuela ending with 8 recommendations: https://twitter.com/Almagro_OEA2015/status/737689317649223681 1. The recall referendum must be held in 2016. Venezuelan democracy depends on it. 2. Immediate release of all political prisoners 3. Executive and Legislature must work together to restore the public's access to food and health services 4. Executive and Legislature must work together to provide safety to provide safety to the citizens. 5. The Executive must respect the separation of powers, in particular it must stop blocking the AN's laws. 6. Executive and Legislature must work together to reconstitute the TSJ. 7. Create an independent mechanism to combat corruption made up of international experts, supported by the UN and the OAS. 8. The Truth Commission (for the 2014 protests, I think?) should be assisted by the UN Human Rights Commissioner beer_war fucked around with this message at 19:09 on May 31, 2016 |
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May 31, 2016 18:54
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Constant Hamprince posted:In comparison to all the real implementations of socialism like Sri Lanka, more or less.  Maybe that was more state-capitalist, but it actually worked Pretty Okay as developing country bootstrapping goes.
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May 31, 2016 18:55
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Man, I'm loving Venezuelanalysis' opening paragraph on this story:quote:Caracas, May 31, 2016 (venezuelanalysis.com) – Secretary General Luis Almargo officially invoked the Organization of American States’ (OAS) Democratic Charter against Venezuela on Tuesday, in a move that has been widely criticised by international solidarity organisations as an attempt to intervene in Venezuela and violate its national sovereignty. I can practically taste the desperation.
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May 31, 2016 19:13
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I find the Mercosur thing hard to believe. Who's going to vote against them other than Paraguay obviously? Almagro is being called a traitor by people in government mainly by the super humble piece of poo poo Mujica.
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May 31, 2016 19:15
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El Hefe posted:And Mercosur are also going to declare Venezuela a dictatorship soon apparently, Maduro's days are numbered.
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May 31, 2016 19:35
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Pretty soon it will be hard to find a flight. Latin America's largest airline flees Venezuela citing Government withholding funds Latin America's largest airline has become the latest carrier to suspend its operations in ailing Venezuela as the cash-strapped Government withholds about $5.3 billion in funds belonging to 24 carriers. Latam Airlines has announced "the current complex economic scenario in the region" is forcing it to end flights to Caracas. "Latam Airlines will suspend temporarily and for an undefined time its operations to Caracas airport," the Chile-based company said. Flights between Sao Paulo and Caracas will stop at the end of May, and those from Santiago and Lima will end in July, the company said. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-31/latam-airlines-the-latest-to-pull-out-of-venezuela/7461330
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May 31, 2016 19:53
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