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chitoryu12 posted:That's actually the exact problem keeping any of this from going forward. Not sure what you mean there, unless "any of this" means to the marking effort itself. The Waste Isolation Pilot Plant definitely went forward, it's in operation and accepting waste. Yucca mountain was stopped, but not because of worries about marking it. The panels weren't intended to come to a decision about a design that would actually be built, it was really just a think tank: "If we were going to mark this repository in a way that would last as long as the waste is dangerous, how would we do that?" quote:In the end, the only surefire way to keep cavemen of the year 200,000 CE from uncovering radioactive materials is to put it somewhere they won't find it, like hurling it into space or burying it so deep and secure that only a society that can understand radiation can have the tools necessary to uncover it. And then the report raised the issue: is 'surefire' even something we should be going for? quote:We have all become very marker-prone, but shouldn't we nevertheless admit that, in the end, despite all we try to do, the most effective "marker" for any intruders will be a relatively limited amount of sickness and death caused by the radioactive waste? In other words, it is largely a self-correcting process if anyone intrudes without appropriate precautions, and it seems unlikely that intrusion on such buried waste would lead to large-scale disasters. An analysis of the likely number of deaths over 10,000 years due to inadvertent intrusion should be conducted. This cost should be weighted against that of the marker system.
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May 31, 2016 20:34
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I may be misremembering the report but I think they did mention having some deadly deterrents close to the waste dump. Chambers with exposed sources etc? Could have been bad sci-fi too  Humanity is crazy and any sign hyping up how dangerous something is will result in a thought process like this: Wow, this must be really dangerous --> I can use this to harm other people and impose my will upon them --> I must have it.
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May 31, 2016 20:40
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TTerrible posted:I may be misremembering the report but I think they did mention having some deadly deterrents close to the waste dump. Chambers with exposed sources etc? Could have been bad sci-fi too Exactly. Or they'll think it's a trick, like "Oh, they're really trying to put us off digging here, must be some great stuff they're trying to keep from us!"
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May 31, 2016 21:22
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the best solution would be to just leave a bunch of scary skeletons hanging around outside. nobody is gonna go snooping around if there are scary skeletons.
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May 31, 2016 21:33
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who gives a gently caress if some cavemans jaw falls off
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May 31, 2016 21:36
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It wouldn't just be any post-apocalyptic mutant troglodyte, it'd be their society's equivalent of Indiana Jones. It'd be the cool caveman.
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May 31, 2016 21:40
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Darkman Fanpage posted:the best solution would be to just leave a bunch of scary skeletons hanging around outside. nobody is gonna go snooping around if there are scary skeletons. Years of gaming have taught me that the scarier the skeletons, the better the loot.
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May 31, 2016 21:42
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:It wouldn't just be any post-apocalyptic mutant troglodyte, it'd be their society's equivalent of Indiana Jones. It'd be the cool caveman. This toxic sludge belongs in a museum! 
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May 31, 2016 21:43
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I'd love to be there when future people encounter a jungle of spiky concrete trees with skulls built over a radioactive waste dump.
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May 31, 2016 21:46
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DrBouvenstein posted:I mean, seriously, did the people who design this never play a game of D&D in their life? That sign just SCREAMS valuable treasure and magical artifacts within, and maybe a spooky skellington or two. If you read the report, they explicitly consider that point: anything marked by an ancient monument is going to attract treasure-hunters, particularly if an inscription can be decyphered reads "Something mysterious and powerful is buried here". (A few years ago I was amused to see an artist's proposal for some large-scale public artwork at my local university. It was a dead-ringer for the the "spike field", but don't know if it was a deliberate reference.) quote:Sending this message was important to us. We considered ourselves to be a powerful culture. I can't remember who said it first, but these two lines sound like the epitaph of the human race.
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May 31, 2016 21:46
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Helios Grime posted:I really hope that it was just his nerves last spasms and him still dieing until his body goes limp. He likely didn't feel poo poo being his brain came out pretty much instantly after trying to jump out. I've made boneheaded moves that hurt me an instant later so he likely thought, "Huh? Fu-" and ceased to be.
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May 31, 2016 21:51
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ranbo das posted:Years of gaming have taught me that the scarier the skeletons, the better the loot. Decorate it as a cellar and put a few rats in it. Ask people to kill them. Hobnob posted:If you read the report, they explicitly consider that point: anything marked by an ancient monument is going to attract treasure-hunters, particularly if an inscription can be decyphered reads "Something mysterious and powerful is buried here". Are there any actual locations that say they seal something evil? Put up that as a sign and leave the door open. If people come back sick after ignoring that, it will be the best deterrent. A perfect deterrent is impossible.
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May 31, 2016 22:07
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It's really weird how obsessed people are over the safety of nuclear waste in some insane post apocalyptic future but nothing else. The horrible chemical plant down the road? What ever, let our ancestors play in pools of toxic sludge, just so long as it's not mildly radioactive it's all good and nothing to worry about. Of all the things to worry about, of all the things worth planning for, future cave men societies shouldn't even be on the radar.
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May 31, 2016 22:10
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Baronjutter posted:It's really weird how obsessed people are over the safety of nuclear waste in some insane post apocalyptic future but nothing else. The horrible chemical plant down the road? What ever, let our ancestors play in pools of toxic sludge, just so long as it's not mildly radioactive it's all good and nothing to worry about. Yeah, the idea that some future civilization would have the tech to dig through all the containment but not understand what radioactivity is and wouldn't know to test for it is a bit of a stretch.
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May 31, 2016 22:12
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chitoryu12 posted:In the end, the only surefire way to keep cavemen of the year 200,000 CE from uncovering radioactive materials is to put it somewhere they won't find it, like hurling it into space or burying it so deep and secure that only a society that can understand radiation can have the tools necessary to uncover it. yep if you mark it on the surface, the scarier you make it look and the more threatening the messages you use to try to deter people from it the more people will actually think that you're trying to hide lots of treasure from them put it deep enough that hunter-gatherer societies who talk like klingons just won't find it Baronjutter posted:It's really weird how obsessed people are over the safety of nuclear waste in some insane post apocalyptic future but nothing else. The horrible chemical plant down the road? What ever, let our ancestors play in pools of toxic sludge, just so long as it's not mildly radioactive it's all good and nothing to worry about. also this
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May 31, 2016 22:19
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Deteriorata posted:Yeah, the idea that some future civilization would have the tech to dig through all the containment but not understand what radioactivity is and wouldn't know to test for it is a bit of a stretch. What if a cave man tries to use the ruins of a skyscraper for shelter and gets tetanus from some exposed rebar? Ban rebar until it can be made cave-man safe. If you can't guarantee your building will be safe in 100,000 years and have sufficient statues and sculptures that warn sub-human mutants then you shouldn't be building anything, you're putting future societies at risk. What if a post-apocalyptic survivor's mutant offspring lose the ability to taste salt and try to drink the ocean? We need a massive wall of scary earthworks along the coasts to make sure they only drink fresh water. What if a blind mutant cyberman finds an old warehouse from the before times and can't understand the safety warnings on the overhead gantry crane and exceeds the safe operating limits and doesn't even understand the difference between the maximum failure load and the maximum safe operating load??
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May 31, 2016 22:21
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Baronjutter posted:What if a cave man tries to use the ruins of a skyscraper for shelter and gets tetanus from some exposed rebar? Ban rebar until it can be made cave-man safe. If you can't guarantee your building will be safe in 100,000 years and have sufficient statues and sculptures that warn sub-human mutants then you shouldn't be building anything, you're putting future societies at risk. lol
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May 31, 2016 22:22
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Lurking Haro posted:This is boring Pro click, I love the bit of OSHA at the end.
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May 31, 2016 22:28
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The best deterrent will be people going in and none of them ever coming back.
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May 31, 2016 22:38
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FuturePastNow posted:The best deterrent will be people going in and none of them ever coming back. No, that's an endless chain of people going to check on the ones that haven't come back yet. People who go coming back with melting skin = much better deterrent.
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May 31, 2016 22:46
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I don't know what humping means regarding a bridge, but I can tell a good OSHA story about an old bridge in my town. The bridge was built right after the golden gate by the same designer, so it's a very old bridge. It had a railway track going over it but never had very high traffic so it wasn't rated very high, and was built for tiny steam trains. In more "modern" times (ie the 60's-70's) diesels got bigger and cars got bigger, bigger than the bridge was rated for. The bridge could handle the weight of a fully loaded tank car, it could also handle the weight of the locomotives they used, but not at the same time. You can probably guess where this is going. They'd get the tank car (loaded with oil or chemicals) up to speed being pushed by the loco, the loco would jam on the breaks, let the tank car coast over the bridge, then run over and catch up and carry on.
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May 31, 2016 22:50
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Baronjutter posted:It's really weird how obsessed people are over the safety of nuclear waste in some insane post apocalyptic future but nothing else. The horrible chemical plant down the road? What ever, let our ancestors play in pools of toxic sludge, just so long as it's not mildly radioactive it's all good and nothing to worry about. Yeah, we have no problems with pits of coal ash or other piles of toxic elements that don't have a half life and will stay dangerous forever. But some poo poo that's going to get less dangerous over time needs to be turned into the loving tomb of horrors to keep post-apocalyptic scavengers safe for 5,000 generations. Baronjutter posted:What if a blind mutant cyberman finds an old warehouse from the before times and can't understand the safety warnings on the overhead gantry crane and exceeds the safe operating limits and doesn't even understand the difference between the maximum failure load and the maximum safe operating load?? lol
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May 31, 2016 23:08
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chitoryu12 posted:That's actually the exact problem keeping any of this from going forward. Because it’s a fool’s errand, and a deliberate one. This nuclear waste remains dangerously radioactive for ten thousand years?  Shut it down.This chemical waste remains toxic till its nucleons (and those of everything else in the Universe) decay 1040 years from now? This is fine. Platystemon fucked around with this message at 23:32 on May 31, 2016 |
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May 31, 2016 23:29
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aren't the worst decay products no longer an issue after a hundred years anyway
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May 31, 2016 23:38
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TTerrible posted:I may be misremembering the report but I think they did mention having some deadly deterrents close to the waste dump. Chambers with exposed sources etc? Could have been bad sci-fi too I liked the designs intended to be impractical and uncomfortable instead of ominous or imposing. like just paving the site with black granite slabs that make staying there very uncomfortable due to heat and were of awkward size/proportions that made the cannibalization of the marker for building material unlikely. or putting big irregular black boulders all over, with spacing, dimensions and angles designed to make building on the site or between the boulders impractical, the black to make it uncomfortably hot, and sized to make said cannibalization difficult again
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May 31, 2016 23:42
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Baronjutter posted:What if a cave man tries to use the ruins of a skyscraper for shelter and gets tetanus from some exposed rebar? Ban rebar until it can be made cave-man safe. If you can't guarantee your building will be safe in 100,000 years and have sufficient statues and sculptures that warn sub-human mutants then you shouldn't be building anything, you're putting future societies at risk. Oh poo poo guys, the OSHA inspector is here. Put out your cigarettes and get the PPE on that you left in the truck.
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May 31, 2016 23:43
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Ambrose Burnside posted:I liked the designs intended to be impractical and uncomfortable instead of ominous or imposing. like just paving the site with black granite slabs that make staying there very uncomfortable due to heat and were of awkward size/proportions that made the cannibalization of the marker for building material unlikely. or putting big irregular black boulders all over, with spacing, dimensions and angles designed to make building on the site or between the boulders impractical, the black to make it uncomfortably hot, and sized to make said cannibalization difficult again lol if you think irregular slabs will stop them  While dark things absorb energy from light more readily, they also radiate it more readily. Just loot the place at night. 
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May 31, 2016 23:49
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Raskolnikov38 posted:aren't the worst decay products no longer an issue after a hundred years anyway Depends on how you define 'worst.' The really-long-lived stuff is so barely radioactive you don't really care about (and in some cases makes up a significant portion of the earth's crust so there's no getting away from it anyway. U-238, thorium, tellurium. Then there are short-lived fission fragments that are fiercely radioactive, but their half-lives are so short you're not worrying about storing them for any length of time . Iodine-131 has a half-life of 8 days, in a few months it's effectively gone. Barium-140, Strontium-89, things like that you only have to worry about for a few years. Then you have the long-lived fission fragments, like Cesium-137 and Strontium-90, and those are going to stay nasty for several hundred years. But it's the actinides in spent fuel that last a good long time, and still are radioactive enough to be a concern. These are primarily alpha emitters, so you get very concerned about them ending up in food and water, and the half-lives there are on the order of hundreds to thousands of years.
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May 31, 2016 23:59
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Platystemon posted:lol if you think irregular slabs will stop them Incidentally I always love poo poo like this. As a former archaeologist this still blows my mind. Just look at it! I'm way more familiar with dry stone walls in northern europe but those are amateur hour compard to this. Mind you, Skara Brae and a couple of other places aren't too far off (I might be being generous) but still. NLJP fucked around with this message at 01:18 on Jun 1, 2016 |
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Jun 1, 2016 01:16
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Near my house they are doing some maintenance on an intersection in the overhead wires used by the electric trolley busses here. They look like this. I'm not sure what the standard practices for getting an electric bus like that past an obstruction on the wires are, but this morning they were just gunning it for the intersection while a worker sprinted along behind who would then heave himself up onto the back of the bus using the cables that support the overhead antenna things, yank them down off the wires before the antennas had a chance to smash into the four guys on a lift who were fixing whatever they were fixing, and then ride the thing like paul atreides riding shai-hulud as it coasts to a gentle unpowered stop half a block down. Apparently they decided that was a bit too unsafe though, because right now they are using the much smarter system of parking the bus up on a hill (there is a downhill approach to this intersection), waiting for the light at the intersection to turn green, then disengaging the antennas (and the brakes) and letting gravity and inertia carry the bus though. edit: these busses are all carrying passengers btw. Mr. Sharps fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Jun 1, 2016 |
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Jun 1, 2016 01:50
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The nuke waste is going to be in these big, honkin' lead cases and sealed with proprietary bolts. If they're smart enough to haul that poo poo outta there and fabricate tools to open it, they should be smart enough to second guess this plan. Sorry about your stoning, future whistleblower.
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Jun 1, 2016 02:08
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You want nuclear waste to be touched by absolutely nobody for the rest of all time? Bury it 50 feet underground where there are no natural resources at all. I'm talking about in the middle of the most useless, burned out, patch of worthless desert in the US. Now who the hell is going to bother to exert the effort to dig 50 feet down in an area where they know they are going to get nothing useful and it's uncomfortable to work in? Nobody. The only way someone will find it is if they are walking around with some sort of device that detects radiation, and when they find it they will say, "oh, there are trace amounts of radiation that are 400 times background levels. . . better move along". Putting some sort of a marker near nuclear waste is the absolutely worst thing you could ever do, as you are literally marking the location and creating interest in the site.
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Jun 1, 2016 03:28
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tater_salad posted:Why did the machine run when open? It's clear that the door is "field expedient". Normally machinery like that is covered in guards and lockouts. For the stamping presses used by the company my buddy runs, he used to use 2 levers that are pulled with 2 hands, far too apart to get your body in the way, that would engage the press so you couldn't possibly get stuck in the machine. He then switched to an IR sensor interrupt that would emergency stop, then lock out the machine allowing for a single button press if you ever broke the plane of the gate. Apparently that's the new cool thing.
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Jun 1, 2016 03:32
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Use bolts instead of welds, they're cheaper. Unless, you know, you're expecting hurricanes. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-hurricane.html
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Jun 1, 2016 03:38
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Blistex posted:You want nuclear waste to be touched by absolutely nobody for the rest of all time? Bury it 50 feet underground where there are no natural resources at all. I'm talking about in the middle of the most useless, burned out, patch of worthless desert in the US. Now who the hell is going to bother to exert the effort to dig 50 feet down in an area where they know they are going to get nothing useful and it's uncomfortable to work in? Nobody. The only way someone will find it is if they are walking around with some sort of device that detects radiation, and when they find it they will say, "oh, there are trace amounts of radiation that are 400 times background levels. . . better move along". It's almost like the whole idea of giant scary earthworks and sculptures and places without honour have nothing to do with nuclear safety or future troglodyte civilizations and everything to do with pleasing anti-nuclear activists who want prohibitively expensive monuments to our hubris of toying with dangerous atoms. Burying in the middle of nowhere to be forgotten means the nuclear industry won, they "got away with it". The monuments are about reminding our current civilization, rubbing our nose in it, keeping the waste sites visible. Being able to point and say "look, look what we had to build because this stuff is so dangerous and bad!""
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Jun 1, 2016 03:48
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Blistex posted:You want nuclear waste to be touched by absolutely nobody for the rest of all time? Bury it 50 feet underground where there are no natural resources at all. I'm talking about in the middle of the most useless, burned out, patch of worthless desert in the US. Now who the hell is going to bother to exert the effort to dig 50 feet down in an area where they know they are going to get nothing useful and it's uncomfortable to work in? Nobody. The only way someone will find it is if they are walking around with some sort of device that detects radiation, and when they find it they will say, "oh, there are trace amounts of radiation that are 400 times background levels. . . better move along". or hell to make extra sure and use an oil rig to dig a deep rear end hole at the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico and then cap it with cement
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Jun 1, 2016 03:54
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Blistex posted:You want nuclear waste to be touched by absolutely nobody for the rest of all time? Bury it 50 feet underground where there are no natural resources at all. I'm talking about in the middle of the most useless, burned out, patch of worthless desert in the US. Now who the hell is going to bother to exert the effort to dig 50 feet down in an area where they know they are going to get nothing useful and it's uncomfortable to work in? Nobody. The only way someone will find it is if they are walking around with some sort of device that detects radiation, and when they find it they will say, "oh, there are trace amounts of radiation that are 400 times background levels. . . better move along". Bury it in your mom got it.
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Jun 1, 2016 04:05
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DemeaninDemon posted:Bury it in your mom got it. We were gonna use yours but Greenpeace was afraid we'd contaminate the nuclear waste.
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Jun 1, 2016 04:10
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Lurking Haro posted:Are there any actual locations that say they seal something evil? This is basically what the Egyptians did with their tombs to prevent grave robbers, and well, you can see how well that worked for them.
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Jun 1, 2016 04:16
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FrozenVent posted:We were gonna use yours but Greenpeace was afraid we'd contaminate the nuclear waste. 
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