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Darth TNT posted:I suddenly have a new awful app and it a massive improvement over the old one. Excellent work. (posted from the new app) UHD posted:The updated Awful app looks great, the posting interface in particular is much better, but it doesn't seem to remember my place on a page when it loses focus (windows button, power button, etc). It always puts me back at the top of the page. It's faking me out every time. Thank you  . Awful talk should go here It'll make it easier for me to see, since the app technically runs on more platforms, even if the Mobile gets the most use.For thread placement stuff: when the app suspends, I clear out the thread HTML from the web view, since some threads take up huge amounts of memory and it's really hard to suspend successfully when that happens (Try it in a GIF thread and good luck having your app come back alive). So when you reload back to the app, it's reloading the web view. It makes it much faster and performant, but loses place since I now reloaded the HTML. It's a tradeoff, but I was aiming for speed and keeping memory usage low, since that was the biggest problem with the other UWP. I'll figure out a solution to it (I'll probably track the post your looking at when the app suspends, so when it reloads you'll be at the right post. Or at least closer to it.) There is a fix coming for a few issues I've seen. The status bar loses color on app reload, the settings pivot header as the wrong theme, Last Read is broke again for some reason. I figured I would finally get it out since the stuff that is improved is so much better then what was on the store right now. Drastic Actions fucked around with this message at 21:17 on May 27, 2016 |
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May 27, 2016 21:14
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http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/05/27/windows_phone_history_special_report/ Pull quotes to follow I guess.
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May 30, 2016 05:04
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Man, that guy really hates UWP.
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May 30, 2016 07:53
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:Man, that guy really hates UWP. What interested me was his point (or was it in the comments?)that rather than UWP using the Metro interface to bridge more apps into WPhone, the cack-handed Desktop W8 and W8.1 made sure people stayed away from WPhone because of "Modern Interface" PTSD. And just typing the above, seeing how MS couldn't even maintain a steady and coherent naming system for its various flavours shows how the "U" in "UWP" may be more a curse than a cure-all. Mr Funkface fucked around with this message at 08:51 on May 30, 2016 |
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May 30, 2016 08:39
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Yeah, I will say that he has some solid points, I certainly also agree that a lot of value was lost with the Windows unification, I still think the conclusions are rather too grim though, depending on what one wants or expects. I think what makes me disagree most with this kind of doomsaying is the seeming underlying idea that Microsoft really has anything to squander here: the squandering was already done. That is, it is not so much predictive as it is reiterating the fact that WP/W10M is currently nowhere, but it has some solid technology already paid for. As such an enterprise play with some limited hardware seems like a way forward with that in mind. Think an NT4 approach to getting into adjacent markets (where the previous take was rather more Microsoft Bob). Granted, as one loses all the distinctive features of the original WP7 it makes it unclear why anyone of us would care at all about such a pivot further away from our (mostly) interests, but I can rather see the logic of it at least. So, plenty of spilt milk to cry about, but I sort of feel that the guys conclusions are a bit arbitrary.
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May 30, 2016 09:22
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Mr Funkface posted:And just typing the above, seeing how MS couldn't even maintain a steady and coherent naming system for its various flavours shows how the "U" in "UWP" may be more a curse than a cure-all. That's not entirely fair, they had a great name "Metro" it however was owned by someone else. After that the names became more about the tech than the style hence modern then win rt then ....
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May 30, 2016 10:31
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:As such an enterprise play with some limited hardware seems like a way forward with that in mind. Think an NT4 approach to getting into adjacent markets (where the previous take was rather more Microsoft Bob). Yes I think W10M/W10 could still turn into something really awesome, it's just looking tough for that to happen right now. As it happens they have a good single OS on x86 and ARM that can scale to all devices. That's an advantage that no one else has. Apple has 2 good OS but they are separate, Google has 2 good OS (Chrome and Android) but they are separate. MS has a dominate lead but it seems people don't care for UWP and it's really the Win32 that is keeping Windows alive. I really hope MS doesn't lose it's way trying to push W10 and UWP to the detriment of Win32, WPF, ASP.Net since that seems to be what people are using windows for.
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May 30, 2016 10:35
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:As such an enterprise play with some limited hardware seems like a way forward with that in mind. So you think going the way of Blackberry today, if Blackberry had never had any enterprise marketshare, is a way forward? I don't understand. Enterprise wasn't enough to stop Blackberry from imploding, and they actually had massive entrenchment before their decline.
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May 30, 2016 13:02
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That is ridiculous reasoning, I think you'll find that every market segment has dramatic failures of individual companies, it seldom tells that much about the market segment itself. Blackberry failed on their own terms, plus they were in fact more or less parasitic on Microsofts hold on enterprise for what success they had. Microsoft certainly can't go make a literal Blackberry now, but they do have a smartphone platform that really is perfectly palatable to the consumer, but can't really compete since it is not noticeably better at anything. Marketing blitzes trying to force their way into the consumer market just wont work if there is actually little in the way of truly compelling reasons for the switch. Instead they are likely to go more of a 10 year plan where they make sure W10M consistently works well with their enterprise ecosystem, and reliably gets patched and upgraded (in lockstep with the key building block of that ecosystem no less), they can more likely just grow it into something of significance. Leaves us current users as the losers trying to use NT4 on the desktop in 1997, patching games randomly to get them working with the broken DirectX version it had, but at least there would be some promise. Be the workhorse.
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May 30, 2016 13:38
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:Instead they are likely to go more of a 10 year plan where they make sure W10M consistently works well with their enterprise ecosystem, and reliably gets patched and upgraded (in lockstep with the key building block of that ecosystem no less), they can more likely just grow it into something of significance. Forgive me if I missed it, but have there been any signs of the enterprise smartphone sector growing? Last I heard, there was a big move towards BYOD that effectively killed BB. That is what I meant by Microsoft going the way of Blackberry without the entrenched position. No more massive enterprise sector, and MS doesn't have all the legacy holdovers to fall back on as their marketshare decays. Anyway, I'm not sure how you can project an optimistic grand 10 year plan for Windows Phone based on what we've heard. But as long as you realize you're really really deep into the koolaid, then more power to you  Edit: I knew I was remembering a great chart correctly! I just get this kind of vibe when I read your posts about Windows Phone naturally growing into something of significance, despite all current evidence to the contrary: 
sourdough fucked around with this message at 15:13 on May 30, 2016 |
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May 30, 2016 14:50
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BYOD did not kill Blackberry, not even close, them not making a smartphone as it was at that time already widely recognized killed Blackberry. I will admit that it is a pretty dubious attempt at looking forward, but I wont quite accept it as a matter of drinking the koolaid, since my conclusion fairly clearly remains that no one should really buy a W10M device for any reason outside of morbid curiosity at this point. I am mostly just making the argument that it sure makes a lot more sense as a direction than the previous 2-3 year period where they were apparently building the underwhelming 950 and still imagining that a presence in the consumer market was possible at that rate. e: I have no idea what you are even trying to communicate with that chart.
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May 30, 2016 15:14
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:e: I have no idea what you are even trying to communicate with that chart. Infamous projections made during 2011 about Windows Phone marketshare over the next 4 years. As I hope you gathered, I wasn't actually saying that's what you're predicting. In any case, it's crazy looking back at talk 4-5 years ago about Windows Phone.
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May 30, 2016 15:23
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Yeah, it has been a weird ride, it really wasn't too hard to imagine WP7 actually doing well back in the day, and it likely could have if for example Nokia had been at the helm (assuming the Microsoft dev team rather than the Symbian monkey cage). I guess another way to phrase the point I am trying to make is that it is likely impossible to break into the consumer phone market with something new at this point, without an established ecosystem you would have to be so ridiculously much better than the competition that you would just have your supposed strokes of genius immediately stolen by everyone else. The UWP route is intended to let the Windows ecosystem bleed into mobile over time, and my guess is more or less that such an approach mostly has a chance of working from an enterprise angle, bagging various .NET shops first and going from there. I think we'll have to agree to differ though, but it'll be interesting to see where the whole UWP thing goes.
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May 30, 2016 15:33
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Stick100 posted:That's not entirely fair, they had a great name "Metro" it however was owned by someone else. After that the names became more about the tech than the style hence modern then win rt then .... Windows Phone XX Windows XX for Phones Windows XX Mobile Windows Mobile XX Windows XX Windows XX for desktop There may be more, some may be made up, some seem to have gone and come back, but the point is I don't even know how to accurately refer to each without getting tied in knots. As a litmus test for clarity of vision at MS it's not a god one. RVProfootballer posted:
Ha! If you squint you can the the butthole they pulled those numbers out of. That's some epic growth going forward, the only way is up, 2011! Cybernetic Vermin posted:Yeah, it has been a weird ride, it really wasn't too hard to imagine WP7 actually doing well back in the day, and it likely could have if for example Nokia had been at the helm (assuming the Microsoft dev team rather than the Symbian monkey cage). I guess another way to phrase the point I am trying to make is that it is likely impossible to break into the consumer phone market with something new at this point, without an established ecosystem you would have to be so ridiculously much better than the competition that you would just have your supposed strokes of genius immediately stolen by everyone else. The UWP route is intended to let the Windows ecosystem bleed into mobile over time, and my guess is more or less that such an approach mostly has a chance of working from an enterprise angle, bagging various .NET shops first and going from there. MShas one thing going for it though - they've defied all predictions and been quite spectacularly unpredictable, who knows Surface Phone might be AMAZING. Mr Funkface fucked around with this message at 15:53 on May 30, 2016 |
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May 30, 2016 15:41
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::consolidated my 3 posts into one easier to read post with a single monthly payment::
Mr Funkface fucked around with this message at 15:54 on May 30, 2016 |
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May 30, 2016 15:45
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Mr Funkface posted:Windows Phone XX The various marketing names for windows mobile is a great example of them lacking a consistent theme. I personally am a fan of the different names MS Accounts have had over the years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_account quote:Microsoft Account or MSA[2] (previously known as Microsoft Passport,[3] .NET Passport, Microsoft Passport Network, and Windows Live ID) You could not get any more flavor-of-the-week marketing at Microsoft than those names for all the same thing.
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May 30, 2016 18:39
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:I think we'll have to agree to differ though, but it'll be interesting to see where the whole UWP thing goes. From someone who works in the space (Desktop Apps) the answer is UWP is pretty much dead in the water. If you want to reach your audience you have to reach it on their terms. If it's a game that means you make a Win32 game and put it in Steam, Origin, or whatever download system makes sense. If you're working on a desktop app you make it in Win32/WPF and distribute it through traditional channels (Steam, Adobe Creative Cloud, your own website). No one is currently willing to cut off 1/2 of the user base of a desktop app by making it exclusive to UWP. Enterprise is wary because everything about UWP currently requires the MS store, many enterprise shops are unwilling to even talk about UWP since it requires W10 (they are not on Win 10 yet, many customers are not) and it requires MS as a gatekeeper. The other big problem is that users are not finding the W10 store on desktop to any useful extent. I can't find the talk/slide but a W10 UWP developer talked about sales/downloads and he made a generic app that worked on W10M and W10 desktop and more than 70% of the activity was coming from W10M. That means that even with a userbase 1/100th the size W10M was using the app store more than W10 desktop. UWP seems like a decent platform but we really need it to be open and not require the MS store before it can even catch a breath. Normal PC apps are and continue to be fine, so without a mobile platform there is no point to using UWP. Programmers are picky about permission and as long as a UWP app can't be installed like a click once/WPF/Win32 app it's not going anywhere even if W10 desktop could get 100% of the Windows market.
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May 30, 2016 19:32
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I agree, the only Desktop App I use is Netflix because it's just that little bit easier than using it in a browser HOWEVER Chrome has a neat group watch plugin (showwgoers) which isn't supported in the App. The other one I used was Facebook but killed that once they shoved a ton of extra complication and suggestions and ads and whatnot - back to Chrome with adblock to get rid of that poo poo. In summary: I did use some apps, I'm moving away from them because they just ain't no good. MS isn't good at this Trojan Horse sneaking up paradigm shifts. Hook me into the system then expand my reliance, don't give me a method of reliance with nothing to care about, jeez. Mr Funkface fucked around with this message at 20:02 on May 30, 2016 |
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May 30, 2016 19:55
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Well, by that measure all mobile/sandboxed APIs are on their way out, because the "app economy" is a weird anomaly, and a lot of the enthusiasm is draining out of it. Certainly the way UWP can make it is if it gets to a point where it can usefully replace win32 for a lot of applications, with associated distribution/management gains. That is longer term though, "big" APIs like win32, DirectX, the Java stack and so on take ages to revise into real usefulness.
Cybernetic Vermin fucked around with this message at 20:16 on May 30, 2016 |
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May 30, 2016 20:14
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Stick100 posted:UWP seems like a decent platform but we really need it to be open and not require the MS store before it can even catch a breath. Normal PC apps are and continue to be fine, so without a mobile platform there is no point to using UWP. Programmers are picky about permission and as long as a UWP app can't be installed like a click once/WPF/Win32 app it's not going anywhere even if W10 desktop could get 100% of the Windows market. Technically right now you can slideload appx (Read: UWP) packages right now. But it's with a lovely powershell script or command and you have to enable sideloading in the developer options. The anniversary update coming out in a few months fixes that by having an Appx installer built in, so someone can just bundle their UWP app and release a raw appx file and you can just install it by double clicking it. You can check this out in the newest insider build too. You also don't need to screw around with any dev settings either. Just double click and install, no store needed.
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May 30, 2016 20:16
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Drastic Actions posted:Technically right now you can slideload appx (Read: UWP) packages right now. But it's with a lovely powershell script or command and you have to enable sideloading in the developer options. The anniversary update coming out in a few months fixes that by having an Appx installer built in, so someone can just bundle their UWP app and release a raw appx file and you can just install it by double clicking it. You can check this out in the newest insider build too. You also don't need to screw around with any dev settings either. Just double click and install, no store needed. Yes I know and it's a big step forward in the right direction. However MS could pull this at any point for example if someone releases a virus as UWP. Then MS might pull that in the next patch citing "it undermines confidence in the Windows 10 Store Marketplace". Enterprise/Long term developers don't like jumping on a new platform unless it has years of confidence. It's a step in the right direction but we need everything else Tim asked for before, W10 market share to increase significantly, and years of stability before it will even be part of the conversation about use as a development platform. Even then due to it's limitations (direct network, direct file, performance issues) it will rarely be chosen. Many of MS staunchest allies in high positions (senior management/CTO) are still feeling burnt by the sudden abandonment of Silverlight. Even though most everyone now understands with Chrome dropping flash this year it's still something people consider when MS discusses a new platform. To discuss a particular issue that's caused me headaches multiple times, I've needed long file path support. These are file paths that are longer than 256 characters. There is no support in the official .Net runtime for long file paths, the only way to access a long file path is an "experimental" c++ library that MS made around 5 years ago. To use this library in several .Net applications we've had to use C++ Interop calls to reach from our C# WPF application to C++ to do the required file I/O calls. Even if we could get full file system access (which I don't believe you can in UWP) could we make a C++ interop call to unmanaged C++ commands? The reason people make desktop application instead of websites is to do these hard things, when UWP comes around and limits what you can do then why bother using it. Instead just make an HTML5/webservice and handle the issue yourself for the customer. It's the same reason why Silverlight out of the browser never really went anywhere. In short UWP can't lift W10M because no one will use UWP for the foreseeable future. I personally thought x86 desktop Win 8/Win 10 was going to be a big deal but it's largely passed completely unnoticed by the development community. Stick100 fucked around with this message at 20:41 on May 30, 2016 |
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May 30, 2016 20:32
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Anyone know if it's possible to load windows 10 onto a 1st gen kindle fire?
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May 30, 2016 23:20
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Now I know next to nothing about app development, but I thought UWP was meant to be pretty sandboxed against malware? Or is it just a case of "no-one uses this so no-ones made malware for it" yet?
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May 31, 2016 00:21
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Microsoft lost the plot years ago when it started stamping it's foot on the ground and insisting that what people wanted was a bike style experience on their PCs. Windows phone was a great interface for interacting with a phone, but people want different things from their phone compared to their PC. Apple understands this, which is why it has both iOS and OSX. It's put a ton of effort into letting people's workflow move seamlessly between iPhone, tablet and Mac, but it fundamentally understands that a Mac is not an iPad and it requires different capabilities. Everything Microsoft has done over the past 5 years has undermined the PC experience. They started to walk things back with Windows but they persist with the antagonistic anti user poo poo, and the UI is now a clusterfucked mishmash of styles. At the same time, they've walked back much of what made Windows phone a good OS, and the OS is rapidly becoming a confused mess. (Although arguably it would still have died from lack of market share even if they hadn't fouled it up). I've already bought myself an iPhone and an iPad, and I would seriously consider ditching Windows altogether and getting a Mac if it wasn't for the fact that I need a PC for video games.
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May 31, 2016 06:23
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DarkMalfunction posted:Now I know next to nothing about app development, but I thought UWP was meant to be pretty sandboxed against malware? Or is it just a case of "no-one uses this so no-ones made malware for it" yet? UWP is pretty sandboxed against malware/low file/network access. That also means many app developers will never use it because most of the reason you make apps is to do those "bad" things. Otherwise you'd just make a webpage or api and process it for the users yourself.
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May 31, 2016 14:57
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Stick100 posted:UWP is pretty sandboxed against malware/low file/network access. That also means many app developers will never use it because most of the reason you make apps is to do those "bad" things. Otherwise you'd just make a webpage or api and process it for the users yourself. It's pretty easy to write a UWP app which has complete freedom to read+write any file on the hard disk. At first launch it would pop up a dialog asking "which drive do you want to use?", and the user picks C:\, and thereafter (on this and subsequent launches) the app is able to read+write anything on your C drive. Looking through everything that's installed on my machine, I wonder which ones could be done in UWP, and which ones do "bad" things? Non-UWP apps which could have been done fine in UWP .NET Reflector Camtasia Editor (probably with the exception of full-screen video capture) Sound Forge Pro (maybe with the exception of CD-burning? I don't know) Foxit and Sumatra PDF readers GitHub desktop Various enterprise ClickOnce apps relating to my employer - yes NotePad++ Paint.NET Photoshop IrfanView 64 iTunes (although the "always running in background doing mysterious network stuff" bit wouldn't work. Good) Office Games (note that Tim Sweeney's complaints were not about technical limitations of UWP but rather around business practices) Epson Scan Skype Non-UWP apps which couldn't be done in UWP Visual Studio (because it generates+runs code on the fly, and attaches to processes to debug them) Chrome (because it generates+runs code on the fly) Java runtime (because it generates+runs code on the fly) f.lux (because it does system-wide stuff to the display) Git command line tools (because UWP doesn't help with command line tools) Super Tintin skype video recorder (because it hooks into another process)
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May 31, 2016 15:39
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ljw1004 posted:Looking through everything that's installed on my machine, I wonder which ones could be done in UWP, and which ones do "bad" things? Skype was a UWP app which then got shitcanned buy MS, non?
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May 31, 2016 18:08
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Mr Funkface posted:Skype was a UWP app which then got shitcanned buy MS, non? Skype is a Win32 app. There was a Silverlight version for Windows Phone 7/8. Then there was a WinRT version for Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8.1. Then they killed the WinRT versions for desktop, saying to use the Win32 version. Then for Windows 10 Skype was going to be integrated with Messages. Then they changed their mind and now there is a UWP app in preview right now.
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May 31, 2016 18:13
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The Lord Bude posted:Everything Microsoft has done over the past 5 years has undermined the PC experience. They started to walk things back with Windows but they persist with the antagonistic anti user poo poo, and the UI is now a clusterfucked mishmash of styles. At the same time, they've walked back much of what made Windows phone a good OS, and the OS is rapidly becoming a confused mess. (Although arguably it would still have died from lack of market share even if they hadn't fouled it up). I've already bought myself an iPhone and an iPad, and I would seriously consider ditching Windows altogether and getting a Mac if it wasn't for the fact that I need a PC for video games. Yeah, but (desktop) Windows 10 is pretty good ljw1004 posted:
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May 31, 2016 19:20
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Drastic Actions posted:Skype is a Win32 app. There was a Silverlight version for Windows Phone 7/8. Then there was a WinRT version for Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8.1. Then they killed the WinRT versions for desktop, saying to use the Win32 version. Then for Windows 10 Skype was going to be integrated with Messages. Then they changed their mind and now there is a UWP app in preview right now. Ah, I guess I'm thinking of the RT version which got replaced with the old Win32. "Hay quick everyone use this new version" "no, wait, lol jk, back to the previous!". If it wasn't so tragic the list of aborted versions would be comical.
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May 31, 2016 19:39
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Factor Mystic posted:Yeah, but (desktop) Windows 10 is pretty good The HoloLens version is pretty good too IMO Mr Funkface posted:Ah, I guess I'm thinking of the RT version which got replaced with the old Win32. "Hay quick everyone use this new version" "no, wait, lol jk, back to the previous!". If it wasn't so tragic the list of aborted versions would be comical. The UWP app is actually pretty good I think. Then again it's coming from using the Win32 version which is garbage  . The HoloLens version is really neat too. It's not the same UWP version I think, but designing Holograms with people on the other end of the line is very fun.
Drastic Actions fucked around with this message at 20:27 on May 31, 2016 |
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May 31, 2016 20:24
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Are there any recommended 8.1 flight information apps? American had a 7.8 app, but nothing for my current phone.
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May 31, 2016 22:30
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Drastic Actions posted:The HoloLens version is pretty good too IMO Someone likes their Hololens, I take it?  I don't blame you, that poo poo is absolutely radical.
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May 31, 2016 22:43
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Anonononomous posted:Are there any recommended 8.1 flight information apps? American had a 7.8 app, but nothing for my current phone.
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Jun 1, 2016 00:39
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Doctor_Fruitbat posted:Someone likes their Hololens, I take it? Yeah I like it alot. The new update just released today lets you have 3 apps open at the same time without suspending, which is awesome. So now I can post on Awful, listen to music using groove and check the weather without having to reload any of the apps. Background tasks are also handled much better than they were in the last build. Battery life is still around the same however. I am getting around 5 hours or so depending on what I'm doing. Posting on a HoloLens though is still a pain in the butt. I need to add more voice command because there is a lot of clicking, and I don't think you need to do it as much. I should also add more Cortana commands. This new build so far anyway as much better Cortana support. In the last build Cortana would randomly break, and you would have to restart the hololens in order for her to work again. As far as I can tell, it is less buggy. EDIT: Post dictated on a HoloLens. Edited again on desktop because I need to add more voice commands  EDIT 2: Finally got VLC running on the HoloLens. Playing video back while Multitasking is wonderful. https://twitter.com/drasticactionSA/status/737826866199924740 Drastic Actions fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Jun 1, 2016 |
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Jun 1, 2016 01:05
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You have a lot of controllers.
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Jun 1, 2016 09:33
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:You have a lot of controllers. Off camera there is a cd-I, 3DO, Sega Saturn, Dreamcast, SNES, PC engine Duo, Famicom, and a Vectrex. They also require controllers, so yeah, got a bunch.
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Jun 1, 2016 11:42
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Drastic Actions posted:Off camera there is a cd-I, 3DO, Sega Saturn, Dreamcast, SNES, PC engine Duo, Famicom, and a Vectrex. Glad to see Microsoft is finally getting serious about Windows 10 Everywhere!
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Jun 1, 2016 12:43
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Today's the day I can upgrade from my 1020 and what's this, the 950s and W10M have been such a trash fire that any chance of me getting a new Windows device have also gone up in smoke? Zero surprise.  in idiot pieces, you potentially magnificent platform that only disappointed and baffled ceaselessly.
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Jun 1, 2016 16:07
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cvnvcnv posted:Today's the day I can upgrade from my 1020 and what's this, the 950s and W10M have been such a trash fire that any chance of me getting a new Windows device have also gone up in smoke? Do what I did and upgrade your way into an iPhone.
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Jun 1, 2016 16:17
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