|
I don't see this doing a lot of good for inter service relations.
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2016 00:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 17, 2024 16:14 |
|
|
Fuligin posted:I don't see this doing a lot of good for inter service relations. I don't think it's humanly possible for Japanese inter-service relations to be worse than they were historically. They were both actively sabotaging the other, even assassinating leaders.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2016 00:56
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:I don't think it's humanly possible for Japanese inter-service relations to be worse than they were historically. They were both actively sabotaging the other, even assassinating leaders. Maybe this is the game's way of simulating that
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2016 01:01
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:I don't think it's humanly possible for Japanese inter-service relations to be worse than they were historically. They were both actively sabotaging the other, even assassinating leaders. If be interested to read more on this if you have links or referrals
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2016 01:49
|
|
|
RestRoomLiterature- posted:If be interested to read more on this if you have links or referrals It's a common subject in history books that cover the internal dynamics of Imperial Japan - Shattered Sword is one example and is virtually required reading if you're interested in the Pacific War in general. I don't know if there's any dedicated books on the subject, but the Military History thread over in A/T would be a good place to ask. Imperial Japan was dysfunctional to say the least, and it's leadership doubly so. On a purely strategic level, the IJA and IJN were known to lie to each other about their capabilities as political chips - the IJA, for example, vetoed the IJN's interest in a full invasion of Australia by claiming that they simply didn't have the manpower such a campaign would demand, even though in fact they did. The Navy on the other hand said the requisite sealift capacity simply wasn't there for the IJA's preferred idea of expanding into Southeast Asia. And this was the IJA and IJN at their most civil. One of the major reasons Admiral Yamamoto spent much of the war at sea, rather than in Japan to run things from headquarters, was the very real fear that the Army would assassinate him. Officers from both services were killed by the other, and the IJA explicitly targeted civilian populations with Navy-relevant skills (like shipyard workers) for drafting to keep them from the Navy.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2016 02:31
|
|
|
Well, I suppose worse would have to be more covert violence, open violence and then outright civil war between the two branches, or the two branches becoming independent nations warring each other. Some sort of crazy dysfunctional future where Japan won the Pacific War, with Naval Japan running the islands, excluding Honshu and Hokkaido, and Army Japan elsewhere. Sort of like NavyGov and ArmyGov like Twilight 2000s MilGov and CivGov. Branches of militaries have taken over governments in the past. ... Go for Midway. It's only going to get worse. Only way to survive is to crush the allied carriers, and keep crushing their replacements and desperately hope it never happens in reverse. The option is to husband the carriers and thus eke out a few more months while ant successful carrier engagement becomes more and more unlikely. Take the tiny chance! RA Rx fucked around with this message at 04:22 on Jun 2, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2016 04:08
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:It's a common subject in history books that cover the internal dynamics of Imperial Japan - Shattered Sword is one example and is virtually required reading if you're interested in the Pacific War in general. I don't know if there's any dedicated books on the subject, but the Military History thread over in A/T would be a good place to ask. I'll second the vote for Shattered Sword, it's deeply technical and simultaneously very approachable.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2016 07:32
|
|
|
Grey you really need to use some of those 6000+ political points you have. Unless there is some really good event or something your are saving them for and we are not aware of.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2016 11:52
|
|
|
hes going to buy a new emperor
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2016 12:16
|
|
|
srusnak102 posted:Grey you really need to use some of those 6000+ political points you have. Unless there is some really good event or something your are saving them for and we are not aware of. I spend some in the next few days, but most of the time I keep forgetting to use them tbh. there seems to be less to spend them on as the Japanese.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2016 12:17
|
|
|
Its like the US in WITW I guess. The only time I ran low low on pp was when I won Italy and mechanised like two armies on their drive to France
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2016 12:18
|
|
|
LordPants posted:Its like the US in WITW I guess. The only time I ran low low on pp was when I won Italy and mechanised like two armies on their drive to France This is an obvious lie. No one in the world plays WITW.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2016 16:40
|
|
|
If you play this from the US side, do atomic bombs become available at some point?
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2016 17:12
|
|
|
MrMojok posted:If you play this from the US side, do atomic bombs become available at some point? Yes. Grey nuked Tokyo in the Allied LP.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2016 17:15
|
|
|
Yes, though their use is displayed only as an "ATOMIC BOMB strike in hex whatever" type line. It also starts killing your victory score if you use lots of them.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2016 17:15
|
|
|
   We continue to hunt down the enemy ships that wounded us yesterday.  We claim more revenge.  A raiding group of destroyers finds another Allied task force and savages it.  I'm surprised they've not given the area up as a bad job.   You know, I think I'll take this trade.   These guys of course retreat east. So I'll have to keep on chasing.  This is going to be an odd one – while we are losing more squads destroyed, they are having a lot of disabled units – so their AV is dropping faster – not that we'll be able to attack any time soon – the supply road has been closed up by a minor unit I think.   That's better, we took out a good number of enemy ships today I think. We also took that base we landed at yesterday uncontested.  The kill list is being very coy with me.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2016 17:25
|
|
|
Can we still take lucky ships? If so, may I claim the Akagi? If not/already claimed, are any of the Kido Butai CV's not claimed yet? I would like to claim one. And hope that it does not have a 'loading accident' that sinks it to the bottom.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2016 18:20
|
|
|
RestRoomLiterature- posted:If be interested to read more on this if you have links or referrals Hirohito and the Making of Modern Japan by Bix is really good.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2016 20:13
|
|
|
Macha posted:Can we still take lucky ships? If so, may I claim the Akagi? You can always claim lucky ships, even multiple times. I can't check at the moment, but the list can be accessed via the 2nd(?) Post in the thread. Should lead to a google drive document I keep up to date.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2016 20:16
|
|
|
Hey Grey, if I remember right one of the things the Japanese player should do with political points is rearrange the industry and rush to the good airplanes. You haven't shown us anything to do with the economy for months, would you mind mentioning one or two things you've been up to there?
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2016 21:02
|
|
|
I don't think building / switching up factories costs PPs?
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2016 21:37
|
|
|
Sadly I came in too late and all of the big IJN carriers are taken. If it's a carrier that was historically there, but not on that list, does that just mean it hasn't been spotted yet, or it's not in the game at all? Hoping to claim CVL Hosho. If that one is not able to be taken, then CVL Ryujo please! Also what is the practical difference between an Escort Carrier and a Light Carrier? Both seem fairly light on aircraft. Is it just the CVE is slow and usually can't keep up with the main fleet? If so, really puts Wing Commander III into perspective, since you are flying from their equivalent of an Escort Carrier, and end up dropping that game's equivalent of a an atomic bomb onto Hiroshima. You know, since Wing Commander is essentially "Pacific War, In Space!" Macha fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Jun 2, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2016 21:44
|
|
|
Macha posted:Also what is the practical difference between an Escort Carrier and a Light Carrier? Both seem fairly light on aircraft. Is it just the CVE is slow and usually can't keep up with the main fleet? Got it in one. Light carriers were capable of higher speeds to be part of full fleet operations. Escort carriers were mostly used for providing air cover to convoys and small task forces.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2016 21:50
|
|
|
Macha posted:Sadly I came in too late and all of the big IJN carriers are taken. If it's a carrier that was historically there, but not on that list, does that just mean it hasn't been spotted yet, or it's not in the game at all? Hoping to claim CVL Hosho. If that one is not able to be taken, then CVL Ryujo please! The document has three tabs at the bottom: the first covers all the ships claimed + current status, the second is all the ships we've seen in Grey's posts, the third is ship designations. CVL Hosho is available, as far as I know, so I'll add it next chance I get.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2016 21:50
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:Got it in one. Light carriers were capable of higher speeds to be part of full fleet operations. Escort carriers were mostly used for providing air cover to convoys and small task forces. Nice. I'm not completely retarded then! And looks like my lucky ship is the Hosho. I hope that my ship does not bring dishonor to us all. Like by plowing through the middle of a landing operation because "gently caress the IJA"
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2016 21:56
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:It's a common subject in history books that cover the internal dynamics of Imperial Japan - Shattered Sword is one example and is virtually required reading if you're interested in the Pacific War in general. I don't know if there's any dedicated books on the subject, but the Military History thread over in A/T would be a good place to ask. Eri Hotta's "Japan, 1941" is also very good if you're interested in the internal dynamics of Japanese governmental decision making. Her book mostly focuses on the decision to go to war with the US,.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2016 23:53
|
|
|
Epicurius posted:Eri Hotta's "Japan, 1941" is also very good if you're interested in the internal dynamics of Japanese governmental decision making. Her book mostly focuses on the decision to go to war with the US,. Here's a shot in the dark and slightly OT - is there an equivalent for Victorian England? Amazon only yields crap about poetry, sexuality, and barely reviewed surveys of the period. How the heck did they manage a world spanning empire? Doesn't help that I'm not a Brit.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2016 01:50
|
|
|
Bozart posted:Here's a shot in the dark and slightly OT - is there an equivalent for Victorian England? Amazon only yields crap about poetry, sexuality, and barely reviewed surveys of the period. How the heck did they manage a world spanning empire? Doesn't help that I'm not a Brit. Rise and Fall of the British Empire was pretty good, as is Ghosts of Empire. To give you the extreme basics, after losing the 13 Colonies (not much of a loss, since they didn't really have anyone else to trade with anyway), the focus sort of pivoted into India, where they were able to oust their primary rivals, the French. Access to the Indian markets, plus I believe a fair bit of penetration into the nominally Dutch East Indies gave them a dominant position in the Asiastic trade, which was a huge deal. Then the French Revolution happens, 20 years of European Warfare is the result, Britain comes off the least harmed, and in probably a more dominant overseas position than they'd ever been. India is rapidly brought under the control of the East India Company, a still private enterprise. Bureaucrats are being dispatched to manage trade interests, but most areas aren't really formally brought formally into British control until other European countries get their poo poo back in order (France mostly, Germany later), because why would you bother? When formal colonization really gets going in the later 19th century, a lot of it is adventurers and out of control military adventures that hand over some huge area of land to the crown. A lot of it was put together in an extremely adhoc way, and it really starts to show once decolonization gets going. See: Burma, an area formally annexed that almost never should have been; and Jammu and Kashmir, a place where they clearly should have told Hari Singh 'gently caress you, you're part of Pakistan now', rather than let him dick around trying to make J&K an independent state, and birth a conflict that's still going strong 70 years later. PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Jun 3, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2016 05:32
|
|
Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
|
PittTheElder posted:Then the French Revolution happens, 20 years of European Warfare is the result, Britain comes off the least harmed, and in probably a more dominant overseas position than they'd ever been. That wouldn't be the last time that the least harmed member of a European war became the next empire!
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2016 05:41
|
|
|
If you want to read some fiction about it, the Flashman novels have a fair bit of historical context and intelligent discussions of the political situation at the height of the empire - which is surprising for a series where the author is an arch conservative and the protagonist is an utter wanker. Militarily there's Victoria's Wars, and a fuckton of freely available kindle editions of various adventurers, diplomats and generals reminiscing about their own experiences at the time. If you're willing to put that level of reading in, you'll get the mindset and mechanics of the empire better than any secondary sources. As for why it kept expanding, there's the usual empire building elements of greed, white man's burden, border problems (ok you're taxing these guys but their cousins are over the border raising them, go "pacify" them and now there's another set over another border... Etc etc etc), imperial brinksmanship and European politics. And then on top of that there's a huge ball of accidental actions, weird adventurers (as Flashman says "there were a lot of strange people around in the earlies"), diplomatic agreements gradually turning into annexation and the occasional "these people are great warriors, let's try to incorporate them into the empire and the army! Nearly every situation was different, though trading concerns account for a surprisingly large amount of it. India was brought under the government after the company took over these huge areas gradually and then completely hosed up handling it, the Punjab was half pacification effort and half "oh god well let's just take it over its easier in the long run", Hong Kong a concession in a trade agreement (the opium wars are bizarre) and British possessions in Myanmar and a lot of Africa were spoils of war or individuals turning up and saying "oh I carved out this personal fiefdom, do you want it?". The Gilbert and Ellis Islands and other small possessions were just "oh man let's build a phosphate factory here!", while the oddly sometimes forgotten imperial colonies of Canada, New Zealand and Australia all have their own weird and unique interactions with the empire as a whole. The empire is endlessly fascinating, but I find government policy the most boring part. There's no rule - it's all bizarre exceptions.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2016 08:39
|
|
|
I wonder what the hell happened to my SS Narwhal. It took a hit at Pearl but I would have thought it would be back in service by now.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2016 15:17
|
|
|
Bozart posted:Here's a shot in the dark and slightly OT - is there an equivalent for Victorian England? Amazon only yields crap about poetry, sexuality, and barely reviewed surveys of the period. How the heck did they manage a world spanning empire? Doesn't help that I'm not a Brit. Dreadnought by Robert Massie is pretty good and provides some context around the twilight of the empire. It is also about cool botes.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2016 15:25
|
|
|
The British part of the Imperial British army was pretty tiny, there were lots of private armies who just got the locals (to continue) oppressing each other while they funnelled the money out. All backed up by the Navy who enforced matters through power of being able to royally gently caress up your shipping and your entire economy with it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2016 15:39
|
|
|
As a Hong Konger I just get so drat sad talking/listening about the decline of the Empire. Come back and save us! ... somehow!
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2016 15:39
|
|
|
lenoon posted:If you want to read some fiction about it, the Flashman novels have a fair bit of historical context and intelligent discussions of the political situation at the height of the empire - which is surprising for a series where the author is an arch conservative and the protagonist is an utter wanker. Militarily there's Victoria's Wars, and a fuckton of freely available kindle editions of various adventurers, diplomats and generals reminiscing about their own experiences at the time. If you're willing to put that level of reading in, you'll get the mindset and mechanics of the empire better than any secondary sources. Adding to this, there was a fascinating cold/proxy war that went on in Asia as Britain consolodated power in India. Highly recommend the book The Great Game by Peter Hopkirk: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/138299.The_Great_Game
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2016 15:52
|
|
|
Bozart posted:Here's a shot in the dark and slightly OT - is there an equivalent for Victorian England? Amazon only yields crap about poetry, sexuality, and barely reviewed surveys of the period. How the heck did they manage a world spanning empire? Doesn't help that I'm not a Brit. If you would like a counterpoint to all the horrible poo poo the Japanese Empire was pulling you can check out Late Victorian Holocausts by Mike Davis. Lots of stuff about the East India Co. in there.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2016 16:06
|
|
|
Adding to all this, it's complicated because there was no one way to run the empire, no unified policy really until it all got a bit more codified and organised post WW1. Even discarding differences in management over the chronological span, at any one time policy was wildly different. India even under the Raj, when things were at their nominally most organised, had huge geographical variation in the two most important, empire sustaining, activities: tax and suppression. There's no one empire, but hundreds of little ad hoc plans operating at different scales and nominally controlled by local and national government long before it gets back to Westminster. There's areas on the Indian subcontinent that are basically handed over to junior bureaucrats straight out of university, while the next one over may have a full canton and associated civil/military law. It's a crazy fascinating mess of everything you can imagine pretty much.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2016 16:29
|
|
|
  I think I'm going to hate this month already.  We hunt down the Dutch sub.  The carriers have resupplied their torpedoes, and things are going to get bloody.  Hitting that oiler is going to help.  We land troops to support the attack on base unpronounceable.  There is a mass surrender here. They no longer see any way of defeating our armies.  We have arrived in the last city in the block of four – and the bombers start warming them up for our troops.  They won't be able to hold us long here.  Another force surrenders. This is the hot zone for the Chinese forces, where the mountains make it near impossible for me to attack.  This is the major roadblock. I'm trying to surround them with troops, but marching through mountain terrain and clearing the flanking forces is taking time.  An auto shock attack bloodies our nose somewhat, but nothing a bit of time won't recover.  I replaced all the leaders here, and things seem to have swung a little – or the enemy has just lost so many men they can't attack properly any more.  A nice buys day for once – and apart from the torpedo strike on one of the lesser carriers, a good one for us! We see a 422 point swing in our direction.  A nice list of kills.  Our own wounded ship will make it I think, she will need some time in dry dock however.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2016 17:10
|
|
|
Whew, a close one. Hopefully with little system damage the CVL should be able to handle the flooding and limp home. Nice day in China, at least.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2016 17:13
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 17, 2024 16:14 |
|
|
She'll live, no fires, relatively small amounts of major damage and flooding. Assuming she doesn't get hit again. Empire Star is a nice bag. So is San Francisco. Storied boats.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2016 17:37
|
|