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frozenpussy posted:I feel like that orange shin-height rail is an extra hazard. I'm guessing it's a really lovely forklift barrier?
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Jun 3, 2016 13:36
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frozenpussy posted:I keep saying ceilings but I think what I mean is roofs. Yeah. And looking at this attic again, those roof supports seem very crappy. They aren't supposed to look like that, are they. They should be nice and symmetrical, like this attic? Are you talking about the trusses? Not all roofs are built with truss systems...and I'm hoping like hell that the photos posted by frozenpussy aren't of a truss system because if they are then it's been compromised to hell and back.
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Jun 3, 2016 14:26
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frozenpussy posted:Of the attics I saw in San Antonio, every one had just one layer of insulation on the floor and that's it, and the underside of the ceilings were bare wood. I think that's pretty normal. Why insulate something you're not heating?
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Jun 3, 2016 14:31
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Jerry Cotton posted:I think that's pretty normal. Why insulate something you're not heating? You're heating/cooling the space your air handler is in, whether you want to or not.
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Jun 3, 2016 15:07
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Zhentar posted:You're heating/cooling the space your air handler is in, whether you want to or not. Does it work worse in a cooler environment? If not, that's a moot point. (I don't know because this place has natural ventilation.)
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Jun 3, 2016 15:10
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Jerry Cotton posted:Does it work worse in a cooler environment? If not, that's a moot point. (I don't know because this place has natural ventilation.) If the air inside the ducts is a different temperature from the air inside the attic, then some of that temperature differential inside the duct will be spent on changing the temperature of the attic, rather uselessly. The larger the temperature differential, the more energy is wasted. So if you're in a very cold environment and you're trying to run hot air through the ducts, you're wasting energy on heating the attic; if you're in a very hot environment and running cold air through the ducts, you're wasting energy on cooling the attic.
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Jun 3, 2016 15:27
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frozenpussy posted:
ductopus 
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Jun 3, 2016 15:34
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Cakefool posted:Holy poo poo someone tell the Koreans about WHFs please, I want to know their reaction. WHF is OK in Korea because it only chops up the O₂ molecules on the way out of the house so you won't suffocate in your sleep. Similarly, Dyson bladeless fans are also kosher.
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Jun 3, 2016 15:36
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Are you talking about the trusses? Not all roofs are built with truss systems...and I'm hoping like hell that the photos posted by frozenpussy aren't of a truss system because if they are then it's been compromised to hell and back. That homeowner mentioned their roof sagged in the middle of the overhang initially, and that it was rejected by either their private inspector or one from the city (my memory is vague and we were only making small talk). And yeah I've seen attics without trusses, we installed a new duct system in a home that was being remodeled and wasn't built with trusses for the roof.
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Jun 3, 2016 15:37
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:If the air inside the ducts is a different temperature from the air inside the attic, then some of that temperature differential inside the duct will be spent on changing the temperature of the attic, rather uselessly. The larger the temperature differential, the more energy is wasted. So if you're in a very cold environment and you're trying to run hot air through the ducts, you're wasting energy on heating the attic; if you're in a very hot environment and running cold air through the ducts, you're wasting energy on cooling the attic. Well the obvious solution is to use insulated duct but I think that's not very popular in residential building?  (Slapping insulation on the ceiling may well be cheaper.)
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Jun 3, 2016 15:45
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Jerry Cotton posted:Well the obvious solution is to use insulated duct but I think that's not very popular in residential building? Ceiling insulation is typically R-38 to R-60. Duct insulation is typically R-4, and it has a larger temperature differential, and the ducts are pressurized/depressurized, forcing attic air in/out of any seams.
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Jun 3, 2016 15:58
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Zhentar posted:Ceiling insulation is typically R-38 to R-60. Duct insulation is typically R-4, and it has a larger temperature differential, and the ducts are pressurized/depressurized, forcing attic air in/out of any seams. Seams? (The fittings have rubber gaskets on both surfaces so it's fairly tight.) 3D Megadoodoo fucked around with this message at 16:08 on Jun 3, 2016 |
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Jun 3, 2016 16:05
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Zhentar posted:Ceiling insulation is typically R-38 to R-60. Duct insulation is typically R-4, and it has a larger temperature differential, and the ducts are pressurized/depressurized, forcing attic air in/out of any seams.
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Jun 3, 2016 16:10
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frozenpussy posted:That's a great R- rating to achieve but good lord would it be expensive. Sprayed foam is like R-6 per layer and it's expensive for even a single layer. And then for anyone to eat six applications of it, I haven't had any customers open to the idea. An R-36 application of foam would be $40 / square foot or something crazy. I thought you used those fiberglass batts for ceiling insulation, not spray foam. And if you're going to make the attic part of the conditioned space of the house, the roof should be really heavily insulated because that's where a huge amount of heat exchange happens, especially during winter.
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Jun 3, 2016 16:16
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You can do spray foam yourself a lot cheaper. Potentially hilariously disastrous as well. I've seen it recommended for "fixing" unstable slate tiled roofs from the inside 
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Jun 3, 2016 16:22
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frozenpussy posted:That's a great R- rating to achieve but good lord would it be expensive. Sprayed foam is like R-6 per layer and it's expensive for even a single layer. And then for anyone to eat six applications of it, I haven't had any customers open to the idea. An R-36 application of foam would be $40 / square foot or something crazy. Great to achieve? That's code minimum. And no, spray foam is not a very good way to do it. The best approach is 2 to 8 inches of rigid insulation insulation over the roof sheathing (thickness depends on how cold the climate is), with fiberglass batts (or blown in fiberglass) between the rafters. It makes attaching your roofing material harder, but you end up with a well insulated assembly that won't have moisture problems.
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Jun 3, 2016 17:13
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 Found in a school network closet.
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Jun 3, 2016 18:01
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Zhentar posted:Great to achieve? That's code minimum. And no, spray foam is not a very good way to do it. The best approach is 2 to 8 inches of rigid insulation insulation over the roof sheathing (thickness depends on how cold the climate is), with fiberglass batts (or blown in fiberglass) between the rafters. It makes attaching your roofing material harder, but you end up with a well insulated assembly that won't have moisture problems. man if that's code I don't know what to say about every attic I've seen having only blown-in on the floor.
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Jun 3, 2016 18:10
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I think Zhentar is mixing up terms, the only thing that goes on top of roof sheathing is your shingles.
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Jun 3, 2016 18:15
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FISHMANPET posted:I think Zhentar is mixing up terms, the only thing that goes on top of roof sheathing is your shingles. we should all get together and build really lovely homes while being cocksure they're built well.
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Jun 3, 2016 18:16
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Yeah I've never heard of insulation going on top of the roof sheathing. I'm working on a house right now that was built back with 2x6's were ok for roof construction, no insulation either. They're going to get rid of the ceiling and joists and make their living room just a huge open space, but we're going to sister all the 2x6's with 2x12's for added support, but mostly to have a nice 12" thick space to fill with insulation. It looks like insulation sandwiched on top of an existing roof system is done though, you still put a final layer of sheathing on top though. 
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Jun 3, 2016 18:20
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Jerry Cotton posted:Seams? (The fittings have rubber gaskets on both surfaces so it's fairly tight.) Yeah, the residential poo poo is not gasketed:  (To provide some actual numbers, you can look at this study; in hot climates even a well sealed & insulated attic air conditioner will lose around 1/4th of its capacity on the hottest days). frozenpussy posted:man if that's code I don't know what to say about every attic I've seen having only blown-in on the floor. I'm talking about building your thermal envelope at the roof line from the get go, no floor insulation. You're talking about adding 2 inches of spray foam at the roof line as an energy efficiency retrofit? FISHMANPET posted:I think Zhentar is mixing up terms, the only thing that goes on top of roof sheathing is your shingles. Baronjutter posted:Yeah I've never heard of insulation going on top of the roof sheathing. I am referring to a sandwich like that. The inner layer is the roof deck, structural sheathing, and weather barrier, with an outer layer of purlins or sheet material as a nail base. It's definitely not a very common approach in residential construction, except when SIPs are being used. It's a much more common approach in commercial construction, over steel decks.
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Jun 3, 2016 20:11
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 I'm sure the couple that lives here is always fighting.
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Jun 3, 2016 20:51
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kid sinister posted:
Whether the toilet paper is installed with the toilet seat going over or under is certainly a non-standard debate.
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Jun 3, 2016 20:58
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Zhentar posted:I'm talking about building your thermal envelope at the roof line from the get go, no floor insulation. You're talking about adding 2 inches of spray foam at the roof line as an energy efficiency retrofit? Yeah, I assumed we meant the same thing because every single home I've seen had nothing on the underside of the roof. I was under the impression that each application of foam insulation was R-6, and you'd need six applications to reach R-36. That R-36 value is what our local energy company required for rebates, and they only offered $2 per square foot which covered only R-6 of anything, whether you used fiberboard insulation or foam. I'm not an engineer, but I agree with that ventilation channel idea. Cooling through convection? I'd want to do that to the walls as well. Every place I've lived in takes a cooling hit in the walls by not having a simple convection layer and outer shell to catch sunlight.
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Jun 3, 2016 21:01
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You guys are scaring and confusing me. We just put in a geothermal HVAC and I added a second zone to cover the upstairs. I had them decommission the old floor ducts that ran all the way up from the basement, then add a new duct system to the attic with ceiling vents and put the air handler in an upstairs closet. Works beautifully in both summer and winter, as far as I can tell. Did I gently caress myself?
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Jun 3, 2016 21:18
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High Lord Elbow posted:Works beautifully in both summer and winter, as far as I can tell. Did I gently caress myself? As I understand it, you're not going to cause any damage, you're just wasting energy heating/cooling the attic. I guess if you get snow in the winter and your ducts are really leaky, you could potentially leak enough heat to melt/refreeze the snow, creating ice dams that can ruin the roof. At least, I think that's how it works, but that's just based on what other people here have said. 
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Jun 3, 2016 21:21
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The only bad thing about having your HVAC in your attic, aside from loss of efficiency, is when the A/C drain pan shits the bed and you end up with water in your ceiling.
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Jun 3, 2016 21:32
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From the Austin reddit:quote:This week I had an electrical fire within a junction box behind our gas stove which caused our stove to stop working. Luckily (maybe?), it uncovered quite the mess.    So somewhere in a wall another phase has managed to make contact with the neutral for that circuit, there are exposed wires which previously caught fire sticking out of the wall in an area of the house where water is handled, and the apartment management doesn't give a poo poo. The best part is that the resident basically has no remedy under state law beyond getting out of the lease a week after sending a certified letter. Despite that being authorized by state law they'll likely have to fight to get their rent and security deposit back. Texas!
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Jun 3, 2016 21:34
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My air handler is in the attic roof space above the garage. Does that mean I get the best of both worlds with the inefficiency of an attic unit and the carbon monoxide of the garage unit?
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Jun 3, 2016 21:37
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Shifty Pony posted:So somewhere in a wall another phase has managed to make contact with the neutral for that circuit, there are exposed wires which previously caught fire sticking out of the wall in an area of the house where water is handled, and the apartment management doesn't give a poo poo. The best part is that the resident basically has no remedy under state law beyond getting out of the lease a week after sending a certified letter. Despite that being authorized by state law they'll likely have to fight to get their rent and security deposit back. Texas! Send that letter immediately, open the main breaker, live like it’s the nineteenth century for a week, secure alternative living arrangements (outside of Texas is clearly preferable) from some place with public wi‐fi.
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Jun 3, 2016 21:41
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Doesn't 240v generally fry 110v appliances?
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Jun 3, 2016 21:42
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suuma posted:The only bad thing about having your HVAC in your attic, aside from loss of efficiency, is when the A/C drain pan shits the bed and you end up with water in your ceiling. Yeah but the air handler isn't in the attic, just the ductwork. And the drain pan has redundant shutoff switches if the pump fails and it starts to fill up.
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Jun 3, 2016 21:45
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Gounads posted:Doesn't 240v generally fry 110v appliances? Yeah the person said in a later reply that was how they know something was up - a bunch of electrical stuff in their kitchen went tits up at the same time.
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Jun 3, 2016 21:47
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High Lord Elbow posted:You guys are scaring and confusing me. We just put in a geothermal HVAC and I added a second zone to cover the upstairs. I had them decommission the old floor ducts that ran all the way up from the basement, then add a new duct system to the attic with ceiling vents and put the air handler in an upstairs closet. The difference is the temperature of the air after it passes through the attic. Here's a trunk and duct system I designed for a customer of my old HVAC contractor employer. There was a nice rebate available through the power company that paid for all this work, and until the rebate program was discontinued last year my boss wanted me to design custom duct systems for commission. I didn't do any of the calculations for the heat generated through the walls. There's an HVAC engineering term for it, I don't recall. I mostly based the flow proportions on the homeowner's desires for a new duct system compared to the anemic one that was built with the house. The power company only required the before and after flowhood figures to pay out the rebate so  The sections of duct board were scored to order at the HVAC supplier (specified by me  ) and we left the installation to sit overnight without turning on the air handler so the pooki could dry. Initially the trunk was secured with fabric straps because it was easier to adjust as we assembled the trunk, and the installers went back and secured the trunk with metal duct strap the next day.As a side note, leaving the system off for 18 hours was a new concept to the installers and techs. It just seemed like common sense to me and was basically a rookie suggestion. When I explained why I didn't want them to turn on the system or install metal duct straps until the next day, to prevent blowing out pooki seals, they were like,  holy poo poo that's a really good point chino! I did the flow hood measurements and there was 0% leakage, down to the cubic foot. It was pretty satisfying.      Unfortunately this is another example of a home with nothing more than spray-in insulation on the floor. At each end of the attic were 18' vents and even though it was October the temperature in the attic was heat stroke territory.
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Jun 3, 2016 21:50
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What's the best system if you live somewhere that doesn't get hot in the summer or cold in the winter? Just a well insulated house, some sort of central heating system (or just lovely baseboards?) and windows that can open? \/ I've heard those are actually really good. Temperature wise the most comfortable I ever was was living in a basement "garden suite". Cool in the summer, warm in the winter. Hobbit life. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Jun 3, 2016 |
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Jun 3, 2016 22:04
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Baronjutter posted:What's the best system if you live somewhere that doesn't get hot in the summer or cold in the winter? Just a well insulated house, some sort of central heating system (or just lovely baseboards?) and windows that can open? 
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Jun 3, 2016 22:15
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frozenpussy posted:Yeah, I assumed we meant the same thing because every single home I've seen had nothing on the underside of the roof. I was under the impression that each application of foam insulation was R-6, and you'd need six applications to reach R-36. That R-36 value is what our local energy company required for rebates, and they only offered $2 per square foot which covered only R-6 of anything, whether you used fiberboard insulation or foam. You can spray up to 2" of closed cell spray foam each pass. Open cell spray foam can be sprayed to full depth in a single pass; it's much cheaper but the r-value is only 3.6 per inch. The ventilation channels are more about allowing moisture reaching the nail base to dry than cooling, although they do help there too. If you like that, there is quite a variety nailbase panels available that combine the foam insulation, ventilation channels, and nail base sheet in one convenient package; they can be used for walls as well as roofs. High Lord Elbow posted:You guys are scaring and confusing me. We just put in a geothermal HVAC and I added a second zone to cover the upstairs. I had them decommission the old floor ducts that ran all the way up from the basement, then add a new duct system to the attic with ceiling vents and put the air handler in an upstairs closet. It does hurt your efficiency, though having the air handler within conditioned space helps a fair bit. Burying your ducts under loose fill insulation will help a lot more, if it's practical. TooMuchAbstraction posted:I guess if you get snow in the winter and your ducts are really leaky, you could potentially leak enough heat to melt/refreeze the snow, creating ice dams that can ruin the roof. At least, I think that's how it works, but that's just based on what other people here have said. You are correct. They don't necessarily even need to leak all that much in places that accumulate a lot of snow if you don't have decent attic ventilation. Shifty Pony posted:So somewhere in a wall another phase has managed to make contact with the neutral for that circuit, there are exposed wires which previously caught fire sticking out of the wall in an area of the house where water is handled, and the apartment management doesn't give a poo poo. The best part is that the resident basically has no remedy under state law beyond getting out of the lease a week after sending a certified letter. Despite that being authorized by state law they'll likely have to fight to get their rent and security deposit back. Texas! Texas state law also allows for performing repairs and deducting the cost from your rent. That doesn't bypass the whole needing to fight even though it's authorized by state law thing, though. Baronjutter posted:What's the best system if you live somewhere that doesn't get hot in the summer or cold in the winter? Just a well insulated house, some sort of central heating system (or just lovely baseboards?) and windows that can open? Mini split heat pumps are generally the most cost effective option for homes with low space conditioning loads, since you can avoid the overhead costs of central distribution systems.
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Jun 3, 2016 22:54
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Appreciate the attic duct advice, should have come here first. Things seem well-insulated up there but I may just fill the whole drat space with fluffy stuff anyway. Oh well, I suspect the efficiency loss from having ducts in the attic is less than or equal to the efficiency loss from having all the ducts run an extra 15-30 feet to get upstairs. At the end of the day, I'm not buying oil anymore, my HVAC is properly sized for my house, my upstairs has its own controls, and my electric bill is about the same as it was with oil/air heat pump.
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Jun 4, 2016 01:15
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kid sinister posted:
The wrapped mini-bar of soap makes me thing it's a hotel bathroom.
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