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George Sex - REAL
Dec 1, 2005

Bisssssssexual
For about the last month this game has been hard crashing on me, forcing me to restart my laptop. Event viewer isn't offering me any clues into the matter only recording that an unexpected restart took place. In my current save, the game will very reliably crash after about four months, at which point everything will freeze and the computer will become unresponsive. No bluescreens. I play a few games, EU4 and not coincidentally, Stellaris, are the only games that are remotely unstable.

Where is EU4's crash log and has anyone else been having problems?

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Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS

verbal enema posted:

Tear yourself apart and try and put the pieces back together!

Nothing feels quite as good as when a tiny Balkan state starts carving swaths of territory out of the Ottomans.

Sindai
Jan 24, 2007
i want to achieve immortality through not dying

Dorkopotamis posted:

For about the last month this game has been hard crashing on me, forcing me to restart my laptop. Event viewer isn't offering me any clues into the matter only recording that an unexpected restart took place. In my current save, the game will very reliably crash after about four months, at which point everything will freeze and the computer will become unresponsive. No bluescreens. I play a few games, EU4 and not coincidentally, Stellaris, are the only games that are remotely unstable.

Where is EU4's crash log and has anyone else been having problems?
Unfortunately if it's taking down your whole laptop the problem is probably rooted in drivers or hardware, the games are just triggering it for whatever reason.

Try completely wiping and reinstalling video drivers, check your temps for overheating, run memtest/cpuburn, etc.

Caustic Soda
Nov 1, 2010

Eej posted:

I will never understand the appeal of playing a Major Power. All the work is already done!

That's simple: do you hate uphill battles y/n? If y, Major powers have appeal. At least until you get into a rivalry war with another major power.

George Sex - REAL
Dec 1, 2005

Bisssssssexual

Sindai posted:

Try completely wiping and reinstalling video drivers, check your temps for overheating, run memtest/cpuburn, etc.

Yeah, I've done all of that. It's just this game and because the game is freezing I'm not getting logs from anything.

Edit: Even tried reverting to six month old video drivers...

George Sex - REAL fucked around with this message at 10:20 on Jun 3, 2016

Angry Lobster
May 16, 2011

Served with honor
and some clarified butter.
Update on my newbie game as the Ottomans, state of the world, 1568:



Heed the thread's advice and went east hosed the Mameluks and some of my eastern neighbours to good effect. I haven't fought in Europe in quite some time, and several power blocs have developed. On one hand, the Blue boyz (France) who are roughly on par with me (less income, more soldiers), the Papal States, Hungary, some minors and me (the Ottomans). On the other, Spain, Denmark, some minors and the relatevly newly formed Commonwealth. The rest is mainly England and the HRE Empreor (Brandenburg). I'm still technologichally on par with the major powers (France, England, Spain) but some minor nations have started to get ahead on tech.

My problem is that I want to gently caress Hungary, but France will always side with them, and I think the Commonwealth can get pretty worrisome if I left them be, right now I have a huge lead on soldiers, manpower and gold on them. If I declared and get everyone on both sides to fight, we would win for sure, but that will probably strengthening France and ultimately, I want France weakened.

I'm not sure what to do, but maybe I'll declare on someone either Hungary or the Commonwealth and let the slugfest started because I'm getting bored.

Cockblocktopus
Apr 18, 2009

Since the beginning of time, man has yearned to destroy the sun.


Angry Lobster posted:

Update on my newbie game as the Ottomans, state of the world, 1568:



Heed the thread's advice and went east hosed the Mameluks and some of my eastern neighbours to good effect. I haven't fought in Europe in quite some time, and several power blocs have developed. On one hand, the Blue boyz (France) who are roughly on par with me (less income, more soldiers), the Papal States, Hungary, some minors and me (the Ottomans). On the other, Spain, Denmark, some minors and the relatevly newly formed Commonwealth. The rest is mainly England and the HRE Empreor (Brandenburg). I'm still technologichally on par with the major powers (France, England, Spain) but some minor nations have started to get ahead on tech.

My problem is that I want to gently caress Hungary, but France will always side with them, and I think the Commonwealth can get pretty worrisome if I left them be, right now I have a huge lead on soldiers, manpower and gold on them. If I declared and get everyone on both sides to fight, we would win for sure, but that will probably strengthening France and ultimately, I want France weakened.

I'm not sure what to do, but maybe I'll declare on someone either Hungary or the Commonwealth and let the slugfest started because I'm getting bored.

You should probably move north through the Caucuses and try and occupy Astrakhan and Crimea while the Commonwealth is still beating Muscovy. Eventually the Commonwealth will get in over its head with some combination of Muscovy/Sweden/Austria and you can pounce on the weaker party and grab some land pretty easily that way.

ulmont
Sep 15, 2010

IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE

Dorkopotamis posted:

Yeah, I've done all of that. It's just this game and because the game is freezing I'm not getting logs from anything.

Edit: Even tried reverting to six month old video drivers...

I found stellaris would overheat my laptop. Had to switch to the integrated graphics.

Cynic Jester
Apr 11, 2009

Let's put a simile on that face
A dazzling simile
Twinkling like the night sky

verbal enema posted:

Tear yourself apart and try and put the pieces back together!

Every 100 years tag switch to a minor neighbor.

Hefty Leftist
Jun 26, 2011

"You know how vodka or whiskey are distilled multiple times to taste good? It's the same with shit. After being digested for the third time shit starts to taste reeeeeeaaaally yummy."


Angry Lobster posted:

Update on my newbie game as the Ottomans, state of the world, 1568:



Heed the thread's advice and went east hosed the Mameluks and some of my eastern neighbours to good effect. I haven't fought in Europe in quite some time, and several power blocs have developed. On one hand, the Blue boyz (France) who are roughly on par with me (less income, more soldiers), the Papal States, Hungary, some minors and me (the Ottomans). On the other, Spain, Denmark, some minors and the relatevly newly formed Commonwealth. The rest is mainly England and the HRE Empreor (Brandenburg). I'm still technologichally on par with the major powers (France, England, Spain) but some minor nations have started to get ahead on tech.

My problem is that I want to gently caress Hungary, but France will always side with them, and I think the Commonwealth can get pretty worrisome if I left them be, right now I have a huge lead on soldiers, manpower and gold on them. If I declared and get everyone on both sides to fight, we would win for sure, but that will probably strengthening France and ultimately, I want France weakened.

I'm not sure what to do, but maybe I'll declare on someone either Hungary or the Commonwealth and let the slugfest started because I'm getting bored.

i'm running an ottoman game too, at about the same time as your own



i'd recommend going into iraq and maybe finishing off the mamluks, even if you have to break a truce. at this stage, and in those areas, you're too large and powerful for any coalition to be able to beat you, so you may as well go nuts and take everything you can. once you've got those areas, you should have a ton of manpower and force limit to go and stomp europe with

Hefty Leftist fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Jun 3, 2016

Tsyni
Sep 1, 2004

I love you, boy. One pack, always.

Lipstick Apathy

Angry Lobster posted:

Update on my newbie game as the Ottomans, state of the world, 1568:



Heed the thread's advice and went east hosed the Mameluks and some of my eastern neighbours to good effect. I haven't fought in Europe in quite some time, and several power blocs have developed. On one hand, the Blue boyz (France) who are roughly on par with me (less income, more soldiers), the Papal States, Hungary, some minors and me (the Ottomans). On the other, Spain, Denmark, some minors and the relatevly newly formed Commonwealth. The rest is mainly England and the HRE Empreor (Brandenburg). I'm still technologichally on par with the major powers (France, England, Spain) but some minor nations have started to get ahead on tech.

My problem is that I want to gently caress Hungary, but France will always side with them, and I think the Commonwealth can get pretty worrisome if I left them be, right now I have a huge lead on soldiers, manpower and gold on them. If I declared and get everyone on both sides to fight, we would win for sure, but that will probably strengthening France and ultimately, I want France weakened.

I'm not sure what to do, but maybe I'll declare on someone either Hungary or the Commonwealth and let the slugfest started because I'm getting bored.

What is your mil tech in relation to the Commonwealth? I'd declare war on them when they are fighting someone else. If you have a mil tech edge in a level like an infantry upgrade or tactics upgrade you should be able to squash them, especially with France. Break the Commonwealth in the first war, make their strongest allies renounce alliance treaties with them, then continue to eat them after every truce timer.

After they are weakened badly head west, Spain should be more isolated then and with France on your side you can take southern Italy.

SurgicalOntologist
Jun 17, 2004

Does dominant culture, for purposes of the Accept Culture Shift decision, include territories? I'm trying a Oman --> Mughals run and just changed my capital to Mogostan. My nation is 28.1% Persian and by primary culture, Omani, is 20.8%. The next highest, Bedouin, is 20%. However. there's a X for "Persian is the dominant culture" in the decision tooltip. I do have some territories from colonization that have Omani culture--that's the only thing I can think of here. Not sure what I'll do if this is a problem...there's no one to give away my Omani provinces to.

Chump Farts
May 9, 2009

There is no Coordinator but Narduzzi, and Shilique is his Prophet.
As emperor, what's the easiest way to convince all the little shitlings to vote for reforms? Also, when can I dunk on Protestants and get my IA over .05 a month again? It won't let me do enforce religious unity.

Tsyni
Sep 1, 2004

I love you, boy. One pack, always.

Lipstick Apathy

SurgicalOntologist posted:

Does dominant culture, for purposes of the Accept Culture Shift decision, include territories? I'm trying a Oman --> Mughals run and just changed my capital to Mogostan. My nation is 28.1% Persian and by primary culture, Omani, is 20.8%. The next highest, Bedouin, is 20%. However. there's a X for "Persian is the dominant culture" in the decision tooltip. I do have some territories from colonization that have Omani culture--that's the only thing I can think of here. Not sure what I'll do if this is a problem...there's no one to give away my Omani provinces to.

Territories don't count towards culture dominance.

super fart shooter
Feb 11, 2003

-quacka fat-

Chump Farts posted:

As emperor, what's the easiest way to convince all the little shitlings to vote for reforms? Also, when can I dunk on Protestants and get my IA over .05 a month again? It won't let me do enforce religious unity.

I'm playing an Austria game now, and the reformation just started. I think you don't get the religious unity options until the league wars have ended conclusively, with a dominant faith, so you just have to accept that the IA is probably gonna be in the toilet until that happens. I took religious ideas in anticipation of this, so I'm hoping it will let me get a good head start on the heretics, we'll see how that turns out.

Opinion is the main thing that determines whether they'll support your reforms. You can see a number breakdown tooltip if you mouse over their crest in HRE window. AE is obviously very bad for reforms. But you should also just have your diplomats running all over the empire improving relations at all times. A side benefit to this is that when you keep opinions high, you'll be able to enforce peace on internal wars, to preemptively stop unlawful province conquests. Also, you get a huge, long lasting opinion bonus with all states for accepting the emperor call to arms when a state is attacked from the outside, so that can help a lot.

Chump Farts
May 9, 2009

There is no Coordinator but Narduzzi, and Shilique is his Prophet.

super fart shooter posted:

I'm playing an Austria game now, and the reformation just started. I think you don't get the religious unity options until the league wars have ended conclusively, with a dominant faith, so you just have to accept that the IA is probably gonna be in the toilet until that happens. I took religious ideas in anticipation of this, so I'm hoping it will let me get a good head start on the heretics, we'll see how that turns out.

Opinion is the main thing that determines whether they'll support your reforms. You can see a number breakdown tooltip if you mouse over their crest in HRE window. AE is obviously very bad for reforms. But you should also just have your diplomats running all over the empire improving relations at all times. A side benefit to this is that when you keep opinions high, you'll be able to enforce peace on internal wars, to preemptively stop unlawful province conquests. Also, you get a huge, long lasting opinion bonus with all states for accepting the emperor call to arms when a state is attacked from the outside, so that can help a lot.

Thanks for the tips. Guess I gotta let my AE burn off. The AE from adding non HRE lands. Also, no outside power can take me, so I can't even get that call to arms. The shitbirds like me enough to vote for me, but hopefully they get over everything before I start losing my 50 IA for reform 3. What is a good year timeline for each reform?

super fart shooter
Feb 11, 2003

-quacka fat-
It's 1510 and I've got two reforms and 23 IA towards the next one, so I figure you're probably on track.There's generally only so much IA you can get over time, so I doubt you could get to the third reform before the reformation hits, unless you got "lucky" and all your emperors died young, giving you the +10 re-election bonus a bunch of times.

Oh, I also realized that diplomatic reputation has a HUGE impact on reform support, so if you annexed any vassals lately that might also be a reason you're not getting support

Fintilgin
Sep 29, 2004

Fintilgin sweeps!
From EU1 to EU4 I have never played a game as Austria or unified the HRE. Not sure why, now that I think about it.

Cockblocktopus
Apr 18, 2009

Since the beginning of time, man has yearned to destroy the sun.


You can do gamey stuff like start as Poland, add all your land, form Commonwealth, add all your land, form Russia, add all your land and get a ridiculous amount of IA decently early in the game but you're not really meant to unify the Empire in the early game, if at all. It was easier to get around under the old system where IA gain was active and linked to specific actions, but that's been gone for a long time now.

SurgicalOntologist
Jun 17, 2004

Tsyni posted:

Territories don't count towards culture dominance.

Any idea what else it could be causing the "Persian must be dominant culture" to be X'd out? Persian is a plurality but not a majority.

Chump Farts
May 9, 2009

There is no Coordinator but Narduzzi, and Shilique is his Prophet.
The leagues do fire eventually, right? I'm hoping I'm not stuck at reform 3 forever, and 19 princes are heretics and counting. I just did a Brandenburg to Prussia to Germany game, so conquering the HRE manually is boring. I want to Greyskin in.

QuarkJets
Sep 8, 2008

even if the leagues don't fire (because the protestants get stamped out too quickly or whatever) the HRE will settle on a single official religion anyway before long

Tsyni
Sep 1, 2004

I love you, boy. One pack, always.

Lipstick Apathy

SurgicalOntologist posted:

Any idea what else it could be causing the "Persian must be dominant culture" to be X'd out? Persian is a plurality but not a majority.

I am honestly not certain. They may have changed it but previously you also had to have more of whatever culture you were shifting to provinces than any single other one. So Say you had 10 Omani Provinces, 8 Bedouin, and 7 Persian, you'd need to have 11 Persian to shift. I haven't tried it recently and patches may have changed that. Maybe someone else can chime in.

Angry Lobster
May 16, 2011

Served with honor
and some clarified butter.

Tsyni posted:

What is your mil tech in relation to the Commonwealth? I'd declare war on them when they are fighting someone else. If you have a mil tech edge in a level like an infantry upgrade or tactics upgrade you should be able to squash them, especially with France. Break the Commonwealth in the first war, make their strongest allies renounce alliance treaties with them, then continue to eat them after every truce timer.

After they are weakened badly head west, Spain should be more isolated then and with France on your side you can take southern Italy.

My military tech is 14 and the Commonwealth's is 12, I'm fairly ahead of times with mil tech. I don't have direct borders with the Commonwealth, but I can attack their vasssal instead. Fighting the Commonwealth and getting into Europe through them and going around Hungary is one option.

ThePutty posted:

i'm running an ottoman game too, at about the same time as your own



i'd recommend going into iraq and maybe finishing off the mamluks, even if you have to break a truce. at this stage, and in those areas, you're too large and powerful for any coalition to be able to beat you, so you may as well go nuts and take everything you can. once you've got those areas, you should have a ton of manpower and force limit to go and stomp europe with

I will defintely take more provinces from the Mamelukes in the next war, but it's not necessary to break a truce to do so, I already have taken Cairo and some of their more valuable provinces, the only one egyptian province of note left is Iskenderiya (Alexiandria's trade node). The Mamelukes are finished as a powerful country, but I'm not gonna bother (at least, for now) in fully annexating them, they stretch all the way to Morrocco and they have a lot of lovely desert provinces. But I'm gonna fight Iraq and take a lot of eastern provinces as you say, I'm in no rush.

Thanks for all the tips, guys.

Mysticblade
Oct 22, 2012

Mil Tech 15 is a big spike if I recall. It's +1 morale, more tactics. The first time I played Ottomans, I got destroyed by Austria declaring war on me as it hit Mil Tech 15 and their soldiers suddenly had more morale than mine.

Tsyni
Sep 1, 2004

I love you, boy. One pack, always.

Lipstick Apathy

Angry Lobster posted:

My military tech is 14 and the Commonwealth's is 12, I'm fairly ahead of times with mil tech. I don't have direct borders with the Commonwealth, but I can attack their vasssal instead. Fighting the Commonwealth and getting into Europe through them and going around Hungary is one option.

Rush to 15 and you should be able to stack wipe their armies with ease, better to get them earlier than later, or at least weaken them so they can't run through everyone else around. Taking Moldavia and the trade centre (or estuary can't remember) there is useful, as well as the rest of the coast for funnelling money into Constantinople.

SurgicalOntologist
Jun 17, 2004

I could use some thoughts on my Oman --> Mughals --> Unify Islam game. Here's the situation:



A recent turn of events has me worried about the viability of this game. I recently gobbled up two provinces in Iraq giving me a border with my ally the Ottomans. The provinces were not of interest to them and relations remained strong short-term. Shortly after I was attacked by Ethiopia + Mamluks. Ottomans did not help. I was heavily outnumbered, but I took out some loans and beat off their armies with mercs. Maybe this was a mistake, but I white peaced rather than trying to turn the tide and get something out of it. I had already sieged down all three forts in Ethiopia but I was still outnumbered in the theater and the capital was being re-seiged (in the mountains). Meanwhile a Mamluk army was seiging me down in the north. (My mistake was probably to focus on Ethiopia--the warleader-- first. If I was able to white peace the Mamluks I could have crushed them). During the war the Ottomans turned hostile, so I decided to preserve my manpower.

Anyways, I'm in kind of a bind. If I could get one strong ally I would have a chance against Otto but no one is interested. My only ally is Georgia. Russia, Bukhara, and Bahmanis seem like natural allies but I can't even get close. I still have yet to max out Russia but I'm not confident (took these screenshots yesterday so I forget the modifier exactly but I remember feeling like there was no chance).

On the plus side, I have successfully locked Europe out of the Indian Ocean for the time being. Portugal has St. Helena and England has the Kongo but I've blocked everything up to that island in the middle of the Indian Ocean and I'll start filling in the East Indies soon.

Back to the point, what can I do to beat the Ottomans at this point? They're going to attack as soon as the truce is up and I imagine once my manpower drops Sind will pile on as well (and they're somehow allied with Bukhara, Delhi, Bahmanis, and Bengal). Do I try to fight or start over and try to make more of a beeline to forming the Mughals?

I suppose I'll also share the culture problem. I can't shift to Persian, and it's definitely dominant.





Found this in the 1.1.4 notes: "Dominant culture is now determined by amount of development instead of number of provinces."

What gives? Maintaining Persian dominance is costing me lots of territories. I could probably grow by 30% by making states of Hejaz and my African colonies.

I still have a couple years on my Persia truce but I suppose I may as well get the rest of the Persians when I can.

SurgicalOntologist fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Jun 4, 2016

Arrhythmia
Jul 22, 2011

Where's your capital? It needs to be in a province with Persian culture to shift.

SurgicalOntologist
Jun 17, 2004

Yep, got that covered. Otherwise the tooltip wouldn't refer to Persian at all.

GEORGE W BUSHI
Jul 1, 2012

Is it me or is Great Britain pretty useless as an ally if you're playing mainly on the continent?

Tsyni
Sep 1, 2004

I love you, boy. One pack, always.

Lipstick Apathy

Baron Corbyn posted:

Is it me or is Great Britain pretty useless as an ally if you're playing mainly on the continent?

They are generally useless. They do perform better than they did several patches ago, but they are still kind of a last choice for me. The only time I ally them is maybe as a deterrent if they are my only option.

edit: or maybe as an irish minor if you're at odds with scotland, but you have to play that carefully so that England doesn't eat land that you are going to want to take from them eventually.

Tsyni fucked around with this message at 06:19 on Jun 5, 2016

Wafflecopper
Nov 27, 2004

I am a mouth, and I must scream

Baron Corbyn posted:

Is it me or is Great Britain pretty useless as an ally if you're playing mainly on the continent?

They can be helpful if you don't have much of a navy but yeah there are usually better options.

Cockblocktopus
Apr 18, 2009

Since the beginning of time, man has yearned to destroy the sun.


It depends who you're fighting too; they're happy to suicide stacks into Normandy all game, but they also have a tendency to drop a fresh 40 stack into Germany or the Balkans right as you and your enemy start running low on manpower. Keeping their continental holdings also helps make them somewhat more useful.

They're also pretty helpful at colonial warfare and island hopping, which can save you a headache or two.

double nine
Aug 8, 2013

Also if for whatever reason you need to go to war with spain then the british will happily destroy the spanish fleets, hurting spain economically and lowers their mobility

QuarkJets
Sep 8, 2008

Feels relevant, I just started an England game and have won two successful wars against France before 1500

1) was technically against Scotland, but France had allied them. I was able to bring in allies Castille, Austria, and Portugal. Total devastation

2) was a call-to-arms from Austria; the war was France (by themselves) against Austria, Hungry (PU), England + Scotland (vassal), Castille, and a couple of minors.

At this point I have all of Ireland, Scotland is being integrated, and I have all of former Brittany, former western Provence, and the entire North and West coasts worth of French cores. For some reason Castille hasn't gotten the PU event with Aragon yet, Aragon seems to be beating them to the colonization game, and I've finally gotten set up in the Gold Coast. Portugal has made a strong start on several continents which has me worried that I'll have to go to war with my good buddy later...

As England my main contribution is ships since their manpower isn't great, but I'll be picking Quantity as my third idea and that should make me competitive, at least. England's start kind of sucks because of their 0/0/0 ruler and the inevitable War of the Roses, which killed off a 6/5/6 ruler that I was hoping would produce an heir of his own, and then your force limit and manpower aren't actually that great despite looking large.

QuarkJets
Sep 8, 2008

Hell may as well post an image



During that first war France had actually become allied with Ottomans, which was why I declared on Scotland instead; I really wanted French land more, but gently caress trying to go up against Ottomans and France simultaneously

You can't really see it here but I also took Southwest Morocco in a no-CB war while they were in the middle of getting stomped by Portugal. This was my strategy for getting around Colonial Range issues; with Ifni as a cored province I was able to colonize into the rest of Africa before Dip 6. My strategy is to take the Cape of Good Hope and all of the trade power provinces inbetween, and then it's off to North America through Greenland

The Burgundian inheritance fired in like 1450, I was hoping to keep Burgundy alive for a bit longer but alas

My Mercantilism is also 42% right now... might be worth trying for the achievement

QuarkJets fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Jun 5, 2016

Tendronai
May 7, 2008

My worst nightmare. It's a dream I have. I'm in a square cell, glass walls, just me and a little castle.

QuarkJets posted:


My Mercantilism is also 42% right now... might be worth trying for the achievement

Don't forget you can buy mercantilism in the trade menu now, 100 dip for a point. Much easier than hoping for events, but not nearly as fun as going Spain and buying mercantilism from the Pope after you force convert Africa.

Marenghi
Oct 16, 2008

Don't trust the liberals,
they will betray you

Tsyni posted:

They are generally useless. They do perform better than they did several patches ago, but they are still kind of a last choice for me. The only time I ally them is maybe as a deterrent if they are my only option.

edit: or maybe as an irish minor if you're at odds with scotland, but you have to play that carefully so that England doesn't eat land that you are going to want to take from them eventually.

Was something done to their AI. I've had my easiest Irish game so far which I thought was just good fortune.

England took expansion and exploration so they neglected their navy and army somewhat. France was able dominate them at sea and eventually made a claim on England and now has a few counties across the water.

If I left it unattended I'd say France would conquer the remainder of England easily, which I've never seen in my years of playing.

Tsyni
Sep 1, 2004

I love you, boy. One pack, always.

Lipstick Apathy

Marenghi posted:

Was something done to their AI. I've had my easiest Irish game so far which I thought was just good fortune.

England took expansion and exploration so they neglected their navy and army somewhat. France was able dominate them at sea and eventually made a claim on England and now has a few counties across the water.

If I left it unattended I'd say France would conquer the remainder of England easily, which I've never seen in my years of playing.

I've noticed France expanding into GB much more in the latest few patches. I often see England declare on Burgundy, maybe holding their own, maybe not, then France declares on them and turns the tide for Burgundy and then Burgundy and France eat their continental stuff.

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Marenghi
Oct 16, 2008

Don't trust the liberals,
they will betray you
Just noticed the new merchant republic effects. 20 province limit along with how hard it is to convert to one makes it seem pointless as a non-starting government form.
Even as a starting government it seems a bit less interesting to play because of that.

Any one have experience with them, still worth it?

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