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I can't remember who said it here but somebody summed up the current right wing in what I felt was the perfect way, "nuclear holocaust is cool and good, it is Tumblr that we should fear"
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Jun 5, 2016 01:20
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"Coddle me until I stop threatening to vote for Donald Trump"  --aggrieved white votersNo.
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Jun 5, 2016 01:22
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emdash posted:crushing protestors with military forces is a-ok, maybe even cool and good Yeah, exactly. I don't gently caress around with Twitter, but surely someone will call him on this, just wondering if it's happened yet.
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Jun 5, 2016 01:23
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Business Gorillas posted:its totally cool if you want people like bernie to gently caress off. just don't sit there shocked when the people you're telling to gently caress off don't come out and vote for you Disclaimer: This is absolutely not primary chat in any way shape or form. They weren't going to come out in 2018 anyway. We know this, because that group has never come out in a meaningful way for midterms. The numbers show that is not an unusually strong nor motivated movement of young progressives. Nothing in the peripherals suggests this is an unusually strong environment for them, they are not unusually active nor are they following an unusually transformative candidate. There is no evidence that any feasible concessions or policy implementations would drive this group to the polls for midterms, which makes the concern trolling about tone disingenuous. Business Gorillas posted:this is the new thing now. everyone who brings up a whiff of economic liberalism is just branded as a racist/sexist because that way, the big donors of the party can be the liberal party without actually implementing liberal ideas that hurt their pocketbooks. At some point I'm going to turn this into its own thread, but the inability for Progressives and Identity Politicos to stay together while coalition building is fascinating. Many women and PoC are progressives and as devoted to economic justice as they are to social justice. Frequently, a segment of this group will support a more viable neoliberal Democrat who matches their social views against economically progressive candidates who are less electable and/or committed to social justice. A segment of progressives-who, by happenstance, are typically white and male-take this as a betrayal and a sign that these people are not truly committed to progressive politics. This group overlaps heavily with another segment who feel that PC liberalism and/or bathrooms and/or gun issues and/or [pet non-economic wedge issue] have driven potential allies away from progressives, and if we just dropped those relatively meaningless policies, we'd finally win back disillusioned white men. Meanwhile, that first segment will see things like reaching out to Trump supporters/attacking Planned Parenthood/harassing Lange/GoFunding Bruenig and feel that they're only welcome in the movement if they sublimate their social justice concerns. Epic High Five posted:I can't remember who said it here but somebody summed up the current right wing in what I felt was the perfect way, "nuclear holocaust is cool and good, it is Tumblr that we should fear" Don't make me choose between Strangelove and the Bronies.
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Jun 5, 2016 01:26
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SedanChair posted:"Coddle me until I stop threatening to vote for Donald Trump" i think its kind of ironic for you to whine about people wanting to be coddled when you're telling people to gently caress off to the other party because they don't want to sit down and listen to you telling them how terrible they are as human beings edit: like the guy you're responding to is literally saying "these people want to help and they might not like to be told they're terrible because they're of a certain skin color" and you're unironically saying "good. gently caress them. if they don't want to sit down and hear about how their race is a bunch of savages we don't need their kind."
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Jun 5, 2016 01:26
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WorldsStrongestNerd posted:Are your literally retarded? Who was that post referring to in not Sanders? I really love how defensive you are about being so wrong.
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Jun 5, 2016 01:29
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Business Gorillas posted:i think its kind of ironic for you to whine about people wanting to be coddled when you're telling people to gently caress off to the other party because they don't want to sit down and listen to you telling them how terrible they are as human beings It's funny the little jumps you make. Well, big jumps. e: do you not understand the difference between whining and mocking? woke wedding drone fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Jun 5, 2016 |
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Jun 5, 2016 01:30
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No one who is even entertaining the possibility of voting for Trump can be rescued from their own brains. Ridicule, abuse, and driving them to new heights of extremism is the best approach for the likes of them.
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Jun 5, 2016 01:32
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Epic High Five posted:I can't remember who said it here but somebody summed up the current right wing in what I felt was the perfect way, "nuclear holocaust is cool and good, it is Tumblr that we should fear" No nuclear bomb ever called me shitlord.
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Jun 5, 2016 01:32
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Bip Roberts posted:Are those things bad for getting elected in Iowa? Yeah Big AG is turning out to be economically and environmentally disastrous to our state. Who would have thought. Trabisnikof posted:Doesn't matter if big ag is good to Iowa. We need a 50 state strategy that only supports ideologically pure candidates! Lol our Rivers are literal poison because of big AG, farmers, and idiots in our state government trying their damnedest to deregulate and tie clean up money to school spending.
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Jun 5, 2016 01:33
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I highly doubt someone's sincerity to help if criticism drives them to vote Trump.
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Jun 5, 2016 01:34
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I wonder if we went back to a circa 1930 German Beer Hall we could find some Center Party guy yelling at some Social Democrat about how they better suck up to them some more or else he's voting Nazi in the next Reichstag election.
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Jun 5, 2016 01:38
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Mr Hootington posted:Yeah Big AG is turning out to be economically and environmentally disastrous to our state. Who would have thought. Those are clearly bad but are they vote losers?
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Jun 5, 2016 01:38
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:I wonder if we went back to a circa 1930 German Beer Hall we could find some Center Party guy yelling at some Social Democrat about how they better suck up to them some more or else he's voting Nazi in the next Reichstag election. Isn't that actually what all the Junkers did?
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Jun 5, 2016 01:39
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If you don't understand why people are distrustful of promises of sweeping economic reforms that don't directly address race, I strongly recommend looking into the history of public housing in America. I've been reading up on it as part of my job (research assistant) and it's a fascinating mess of both outright malice and of good intentions gone wrong or functionally crippled by compromise. The two things I've taken away from it are that first, socialists / New Deal liberals and civil rights activists have a common enemy in the form of market-worshipping policy -- but second, that of the two groups, it's not the civil rights activists who have a history of throwing the other under the bus to achieve half-assed versions of their own goals. Even if you think someone is pissing on your best intentions, even if they really are, you need to be the one to step back and not make it about yourself. If you think the leaders of the Democratic party don't have people's best interests at heart -- and I'm right there with you -- then the progressive wing needs to be better at social issues than they are, not treat it like a distraction. And frankly, if they really are just using it as a sop, this shouldn't even be that hard!
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Jun 5, 2016 01:40
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Samurai Sanders posted:Did he say something about Ali other than calling him a great guy (and being called out for not wanting him in the country because of his religion)? And what has he said about Tianneman Square? emdash posted:crushing protestors with military forces is a-ok, maybe even cool and good Bulgaroctonus posted:Yeah, exactly. I don't gently caress around with Twitter, but surely someone will call him on this, just wondering if it's happened yet. http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/02/politics/hillary-clinton-attack-lines-donald-trump-foreign-policy/ quote:"He praised China for the Tiananmen Square massacre -- he said it showed strength. He said, 'You've got to give Kim Jong Un credit' for taking over North Korea -- something he did by murdering everyone he saw as a threat, including his own uncle, which Donald described gleefully, like he was recapping an action movie." That line was right before one of the greatest lines of the night: quote:"I will leave it to the psychiatrists to explain his affection for tyrants." 
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Jun 5, 2016 01:40
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Samurai Sanders posted:Did he say something about Ali other than calling him a great guy (and being called out for not wanting him in the country because of his religion)? And what has he said about Tianneman Square?  https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/738950669927886848 https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/673741357190615040 https://twitter.com/BuzzFeedAndrew/status/739114740555915264
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Jun 5, 2016 01:41
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Tatum Girlparts posted:I wanna say no but he can put a good dent in it that can be exploited by midterms  if you think Dems are going to do anything but get destroyed in the 2018 elections. Dems are losing the Senate in 2018 if they manage to take it back unless the GOP has actually shattered by then and people lose races simply because nobody knows who to vote for on the right, or the vote's splitting between multiple True Conservative parties.Unless we get nation wide mail-in voting or some other insanely voter-friendly changes between now and 2018 the Dems are going to be the minority in both chambers again, assuming the manage to take the Senate this year and spend the next 2 years nominating and confirming every single position they can while they can.
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Jun 5, 2016 01:42
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Geoff Peterson posted:Disclaimer: This is absolutely not primary chat in any way shape or form. if you can show me some instances of someone actually supporting progressive ideals and still getting crushed in a midterm, i'll agree with you. afaik i don't think its ever happened before, so to me it looks like people like zoux and fishmech ranting about how they don't need the youth vote and nobody should take these loving kids seriously, only to get floored when said kids don't come out to vote for them in the midterms. quote:At some point I'm going to turn this into its own thread, but the inability for Progressives and Identity Politicos to stay together while coalition building is fascinating. the angry white male thing is definitely real, but there's a pretty conscious effort to try and concern troll anyone who brings up economic justice out of the room or use the language of the identity politico's language to brand them so they don't build a coalition with each other
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Jun 5, 2016 01:44
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:If you don't understand why people are distrustful of promises of sweeping economic reforms that don't directly address race, I strongly recommend looking into the history of public housing in America. I've been reading up on it as part of my job (research assistant) and it's a fascinating mess of both outright malice and of good intentions gone wrong or functionally crippled by compromise.
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Jun 5, 2016 01:51
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:If you don't understand why people are distrustful of promises of sweeping economic reforms that don't directly address race, I strongly recommend looking into the history of public housing in America. I've been reading up on it as part of my job (research assistant) and it's a fascinating mess of both outright malice and of good intentions gone wrong or functionally crippled by compromise. yeah. redlining was invented by the US government as part of the new deal. when socialism came to america, it was explicitly segregated. there is enough precedent for nonwhite americans being left out of economic reform to make it a completely sound and rational concern that it would happen again, given that we've only started to dismantle institutional racism
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Jun 5, 2016 01:55
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Business Gorillas posted:if you can show me some instances of someone actually supporting progressive ideals and still getting crushed in a midterm, i'll agree with you. afaik i don't think its ever happened before, so to me it looks like people like zoux and fishmech ranting about how they don't need the youth vote and nobody should take these loving kids seriously, only to get floored when said kids don't come out to vote for them in the midterms. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russ_Feingold https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Oberstar
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Jun 5, 2016 01:57
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It always to me comes back to. Why should economic issues be more important to me than stopping my people from being profiled, targeted and killed. It is literally in the economic politico's best interest for the social changes to happen. Because once every one is on equal footing in society(besides the super rich anyway) there is a massive power bloc that can focus on economic issues And promote change. But as it stands now it often feels like minorities are being told wait your turn, sure once we get what we want we will help you out. Then when y'all succeed it's back to "what's racism? Oh that stuff was only like 50 years ago". And while we are in a slightly better place economically, we might have healthcare or something...we are still an underclass and still being profiled and still going to underfunded schools. Dexo fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Jun 5, 2016 |
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Jun 5, 2016 01:58
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Bip Roberts posted:Those are clearly bad but are they vote losers? http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/2016/06/04/iowa-poll-patty-judge-leads-way-democratic-senate-primary/85359660/ But yeah it could be. There is a big lawsuit right now over water quality and the EPA is about to come down hard on the state. Judge is against the lawsuit and 41% of responding democrats in this poll say this could sway their opinion. That is a minority but a good chunk. The poll also shows a majority of Dems in state are more aligned with Hogh on views, but support Judge because they know her. Can't be bothered to research. It double irks me because Hogg was the candidate that the state party, state unions, and in state dem money was lining up behind. The national dems said "nope!" And recruited Judge. I hope she can win, but we will probably get Grassley for 6 more years. Hopefully at the end of that Hogg can run. He is a good guy who is excellent of the various issues that affect my state.
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Jun 5, 2016 02:04
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Business Gorillas posted:if you can show me some instances of someone actually supporting progressive ideals and still getting crushed in a midterm, i'll agree with you. afaik i don't think its ever happened before, so to me it looks like people like zoux and fishmech ranting about how they don't need the youth vote and nobody should take these loving kids seriously, only to get floored when said kids don't come out to vote for them in the midterms.  You're really going with "no progressive has lost a midterm"? Like, I'm not going to build an exhaustive list for you, but Feingold wasn't even six years ago. Business Gorillas posted:i'd say that this is a feature, not a bug. its easy for a monied elite to co-opt the identity politico's language because it doesn't affect them or their pocketbooks. sure, we can have gay couples working together in a mcdonald's ad now, but god forbid we raise their wages. we can have a board room full of women at huffington post, but they're all white, (probably) from independently wealthy families, and (probably) went to the same top tier schools. I'm not sure how that goes with what I posted-outside of "neoliberals are cool with identity politics"? Your last line is also hyperbolic to the point that I'm wondering if I'm getting 
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Jun 5, 2016 02:05
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WorldsStrongestNerd posted:Look at this post right here. Look at it. Shockingly, I'm on the same side of your economically-- I'm a social democrat when it comes down to it. I just don't trust populists because it's historically (and currently tbqh) it's been a movement of low status whites, and it's brought very backward positions w/r/t identity politics, and anything standing in the way of lower class whites getting to lord over more deserving people. Hell, our first populist disaster involved a huge unconstitutional ethnic cleansing, and a huge economic crash after Jackson's crazy person economic policy took full effect. The big populist of the early 20th century (Williams Jennings Bryan) was in the cabinet of a literal Klansman and is famous for arguing on the half-educated side of the Scopes trial. I also don't think Bernie himself is a racist, though I won't say so about a decent amount of the core of his personality cult. I get a bunch of Bernouts posting in my area, and shock and awe at least a third are racist or sexist attacks against Clinton or Clinton supporters. Those are the wild-eyed populists we have to watch for and send packing every time they even get close to the levers of power. And note the guy I was responding to (Matt Dr1zzel ) is a white supremacists scumbag, but since you're willing to throw out lines about actually decent people in the room being "self hating whites" I doubt you disagree with his position much.
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Jun 5, 2016 02:11
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Some of that is just as likely primary talk like there was a ton of dog whistling in 08 between Obama and Hillary supporters
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Jun 5, 2016 02:13
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Business Gorillas posted:i'd say that this is a feature, not a bug. its easy for a monied elite to co-opt the identity politico's language because it doesn't affect them or their pocketbooks. sure, we can have gay couples working together in a mcdonald's ad now, but god forbid we raise their wages. we can have a board room full of women at huffington post, but they're all white, (probably) from independently wealthy families, and (probably) went to the same top tier schools. If you're going to go with the Virtue Signalling argument again, at least be honest and say the drat words.
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Jun 5, 2016 02:14
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It's weird how social issues and economic issues both exist separately in a vacuum and cannot be addressed simultaneously. I wouldn't have learned this interesting fact without following USPOL over the past few months.
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Jun 5, 2016 02:16
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Lol you're literally saying that it's all the blacks fault This but un-ironically. They voted for the wrong person for purposes of identity politics and not economically un-loving themselves. Its a drat shame but thats democracy. It doesnt mean I (or others) need to start helping them out. MattD1zzl3 fucked around with this message at 02:19 on Jun 5, 2016 |
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Jun 5, 2016 02:17
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Jun 5, 2016 02:18
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MattD1zzl3 posted:This but unironically. They voted for the wrong person for purposes of identity politics and not economically un-loving themselves. Its a drat shame but thats democracy. It doesnt mean I (or others) need to start helping them out. Are you secretly Harry Truman?
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Jun 5, 2016 02:19
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MattD1zzl3 posted:This but unironically. They voted for the wrong person for purposes of identity politics and not economically un-loving themselves. Its a drat shame but thats democracy. It doesnt mean I (or others) need to start helping them out. you really do deserve that custom title
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Jun 5, 2016 02:19
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MattD1zzl3 posted:This but unironically. They voted for the wrong person for purposes of identity politics and not economically un-loving themselves. Its a drat shame but thats democracy. It doesnt mean I (or others) need to start helping them out. Open racism at least has the advantage of making it real clear who the scumbags are. 
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Jun 5, 2016 02:20
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UV_Catastrophe posted:It's weird how social issues and economic issues both exist separately in a vacuum and cannot be addressed simultaneously. I learned that when whites champion issues that affect them they SHUT UP AND SIT DOWN CRACKER rear end HONKEY! WHO SAID YOUR MODERATE WHITE PRIVILEGED rear end CAN TALK AGAIN?!?
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Jun 5, 2016 02:21
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sean10mm posted:Open racism at least has the advantage of making it real clear who the scumbags are. yeah, racist white "leftists" like mattd1zzl3 do a lot to poison the well and scare off nonwhite voters, who knew! and now some rather prescient scripts from W.E.B. DuBois, because man, the more things change, the more they stay the same:   full article here Jerry Manderbilt fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Jun 5, 2016 |
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Jun 5, 2016 02:21
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Dexo posted:
I agree that this is the case. Establishment center dems really never want to focus on the economic ends though. Instead of equal footing, we're all going to be at the bottom of the heap except for a socially sensitive, demographically representative "middle class" and poo poo will still suck for a lot of people for a lot of the same economic reasons. At risk of butchering the point I am trying to make, I would point to how the Komen foundation could be construed as feminist for raising money for breast cancer research but it seems mostly to be a marketing brand that's mostly funneling money to their internal salaries.
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Jun 5, 2016 02:25
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DemeaninDemon posted:Are you secretly Harry Truman? More like Woodrow Wilson.
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Jun 5, 2016 02:29
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Considering that economic power directly controls the ability to control the discourse in this nation it seems to be a rather bad idea to just hope that our economic betters will lead us to the promised land in either respect. I mean their track record is so great over the last 30 years or so right?
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Jun 5, 2016 02:32
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as far as i'm concerned, a myopic focus on economic justice with mattd1zzl3-caliber disdain for racial justice is but a hair removed from the far right
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Jun 5, 2016 02:35
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