CanPol Megathread: Big Changus

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > CanPol Megathread: Big Changus

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

Actually I just read an article in Russia Today (real journalists with real credentials) who quoted some russian historians and experts that said Holodomor didn't actually exist and was just a small food shortage caused by lefover homosexual western cultural influence from the area's time under brutal Polish-Lithuanian conquest. The only people who bring it up now are nazi-collaborating fascists as part of the West's constant attempts to attack the reputation of Russia (who saved the world from the nazi's). Did you know the Holodomor memorial monument in Kiev was actually built from the bones of soviet veterans and blessed not by a true Russian orthodox priest but by a pagan devil summoned by the sheer amount of lies about russia contained in the monuments info centre?

(actually the info centre is pretty biased in tone and jumps at any chance to shout "RUSSIA BAD" at things not even related, as if russia doesn't have enough vile poo poo to parade out and shame them with)

Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Jun 4, 2016

# ? Jun 4, 2016 19:23

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# ? Jun 10, 2024 23:36

Helsing: Aug 23, 2003; DON'T POST IN THE ELECTION THREAD UNLESS YOU JOE BIDEN

Are people seriously comparing an actual historian talking about a real historiographical debate with genocide denial? Jesus Christ just gas this lovely thread.

# ? Jun 4, 2016 19:29

Guy DeBorgore: Apr 6, 1994; Catnip is the opiate of the masses; Soiled Meat

vyelkin posted:

tl;dr, thanks for your condescending attitude but I actually do have an idea of what I'm talking about and am not an amateur Winston Churchill historian.

Sorry I jumped to conclusions about your stance & qualifications, I shouldn't have maligned a cool canpol regular that way, but you're not exactly in great company on this argument.

# ? Jun 4, 2016 19:30

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

We're all experts on the internet

# ? Jun 4, 2016 19:58

Seat Safety Switch: May 27, 2008; MY RELIGION IS THE SMALL BLOCK V8 AND COMMANDMENTS ONE THROUGH TEN ARE NEVER LIFT.; Pillbug

When I was a kid growing up in urban Alberta I wondered why the official curriculum featured so much Ukrainian content every year, especially when we had a social studies unit called "Asia" that took two weeks to loosely cover the existence of 60% of the world's population (Sample chapter: Japan exists. Here are public domain pictures of food and ceremonial dress. They make Walkmans.)

When I grew up I realized it was rural vote buying pandering but it was never quite as lazy as this attempt.

# ? Jun 4, 2016 20:50

Furnaceface: Oct 21, 2004

namaste faggots posted:

We're all experts on the internet

Im not. Ill admit it. :shobon:

Helsing posted:

Are people seriously comparing an actual historian talking about a real historiographical debate with genocide denial? Jesus Christ just gas this lovely thread.

In Canada we still have scientists saying climate change is a hoax and historians parading that we won the war of 1812. Many people are becoming quick to question anyone involved in science and history right now because of how many appear to be in the pockets of private interests. It didnt warrant this much of a lovely derail but CanPol gonna CanPol. :shrug:

# ? Jun 4, 2016 20:59

Hubbert: Mar 25, 2007; At a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

Helsing posted:

Are people seriously comparing an actual historian talking about a real historiographical debate with genocide denial? Jesus Christ just gas this lovely thread.

I'm fairly sure that's par for the course here in D&D.

# ? Jun 4, 2016 21:00

Funkdreamer: Jul 15, 2005; It'll be a blast

CanPol Megathread: RusPol Megathread

# ? Jun 4, 2016 21:17

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

We're burned the white House down you guys

Hurrah Canadian forces

# ? Jun 4, 2016 21:21

HackensackBackpack: Aug 20, 2007; Who needs a house out in Hackensack? Is that all you get for your money?

vyelkin posted:

Studying for a Ph.D in Russian history, yeah...

Before I ask, let me just open by saying this post is not meant to be snarky or insulting in any way. I am genuinely curious about your opinion, vyelkin.

What do you think the CBC writer should have done to describe what the Holodomor was, in order to present the issue in a more thorough light? Would it have been as simple as calling it a famine in which millions died, while adding one line saying the Canadian government has recognized it as an act of genocide perpetrated by Stalin? While I respect your position that the history of the event is more nuanced than simply saying, "Stalin literally did it", I do take issue with the characterization that the writer just asked the Ukrainian guy in the office and transcribed his answer. The position that it was an intentional genocide is widely held in this country and is, as I pointed out and you agreed, the official stance of the government. I think it's more likely the writer fell on that side of it.

We do have a history in this country of officially recognizing certain events as straight-up genocide. The government also feels the same way about what happened to the Armenians in 1915. Something that is still contested over 100 years later (just yesterday, in fact, though this article is about Germany, and not Canada, which made it official 12 years ago).

Now, to a more general question, not aimed at anyone in particular... what the hell were those Wildrose idiots thinking? Alberta is a province that has a town with a loving giant pierogi on a fork and another town with a giant pysanka. The only place more Ukrainian than Alberta is Manitoba. Or possibly Ukraine.

# ? Jun 4, 2016 23:24

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

The Armenian genocide is clearly more organized that the Holodomor, which is why it's more often officially recognized as intentional genocide instead of "a thing where a lot of people died." Its lack of recognition as such has less to do with the facts surrounding it and more to do with the fact that it really pisses of the Turks, and the Turks are a very valuable geopolitical ally at the moment for a lot of different people. Likewise, Canada's official position on the Holodomor is more about making domestic political hay than anything else.

There's considerably more ambiguity as to what role intent played in the Holodomor.

# ? Jun 4, 2016 23:57

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

Leofish posted:

Before I ask, let me just open by saying this post is not meant to be snarky or insulting in any way. I am genuinely curious about your opinion, vyelkin.

What do you think the CBC writer should have done to describe what the Holodomor was, in order to present the issue in a more thorough light? Would it have been as simple as calling it a famine in which millions died, while adding one line saying the Canadian government has recognized it as an act of genocide perpetrated by Stalin? While I respect your position that the history of the event is more nuanced than simply saying, "Stalin literally did it", I do take issue with the characterization that the writer just asked the Ukrainian guy in the office and transcribed his answer. The position that it was an intentional genocide is widely held in this country and is, as I pointed out and you agreed, the official stance of the government. I think it's more likely the writer fell on that side of it.

Yeah, I think this would have been fine. So the bit that I take issue with is a very specific part of what they said. This is their line:

quote:

In 1932 and 1933, the Soviet regime under Joseph Stalin put in policies to deliberately trigger a famine in Ukraine. Millions perished.

It's literally just the word "deliberately" that could be at all controversial in that statement, so appeasing pedant historians like me would be as easy as rephrasing that to something like

quote:

In 1932 and 1933, the Soviet regime under Joseph Stalin enacted policies that caused a famine in Ukraine. Millions perished.

That way you get the agreed-upon historical facts (Soviet policies caused or at the very least significantly exacerbated the famine--there's no disputing that; the argument is over whether the famine was the definitive goal of those policies, or whether the policies were serving a different goal and the famine was a side effect) without necessarily promoting one side of the historiographical debate in the public consciousness. And if you want to add a sentence that the Canadian government recognizes it as a deliberate act of genocide that's fine. Or if you want to say that the CBC itself, or the journalist who wrote the story, or even the Ukrainian-Canadian community, recognizes it as a deliberate act of genocide, that's fine too. The only thing I take issue with is a supposedly trusted source of news like the CBC just including a blanket statement that one side of the historiography's interpretation of events is correct, without even acknowledging that there is an academic debate about it at all.

Incidentally, even my rephrasing leads to a slightly distorting effect on the reader because it implies that those policies only affected Ukraine, whereas actually the famine of 1932-33 affected large parts of the Soviet Union outside Ukraine, including the Caucasus, Volga Region, and Central Asia, but we can leave that aside for the sake of brevity and because it's not really relevant to this news article in particular.

vyelkin fucked around with this message at 00:04 on Jun 5, 2016

# ? Jun 5, 2016 00:00

cowofwar: Jul 30, 2002; by Athanatos

Turkey's bizarre refusal to apologize for for past genocides is worse than the suffocating stench of body odor and cigarettes of Istanbul.

# ? Jun 5, 2016 00:02

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

cowofwar posted:

Turkey's bizarre refusal to apologize for for past genocides is worse than the suffocating stench of body odor and cigarettes of Istanbul.

Mods do something

# ? Jun 5, 2016 00:06

Slim Jim Pickens: Jan 16, 2012

cowofwar posted:

Turkey's bizarre refusal to apologize for for past genocides is worse than the suffocating stench of body odor and cigarettes of Istanbul.

Yes Istanbul, center mass of Turkish conservatism and Erdogan supporters.

# ? Jun 5, 2016 00:07

Kindest Forums User: Mar 25, 2008; Let me tell you about my opinion about Bernie Sanders and why Donald Trump is his true successor.

You cannot vote Hillary Clinton because she is worse than Trump.

Leofish posted:

We do have a history in this country of officially recognizing certain events as straight-up genocide. The government also feels the same way about what happened to the Armenians in 1915. Something that is still contested over 100 years later (just yesterday, in fact, though this article is about Germany, and not Canada, which made it official 12 years ago).

We do have a history in this country of officially recognizing certain events as straight-up genocide. except when the genocide is on home turf

# ? Jun 5, 2016 00:13

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

home turf like on our friends' in sabra and shatila am i right

# ? Jun 5, 2016 00:31

HackensackBackpack: Aug 20, 2007; Who needs a house out in Hackensack? Is that all you get for your money?

PT6A posted:

The Armenian genocide is clearly more organized that the Holodomor, which is why it's more often officially recognized as intentional genocide instead of "a thing where a lot of people died." Its lack of recognition as such has less to do with the facts surrounding it and more to do with the fact that it really pisses of the Turks, and the Turks are a very valuable geopolitical ally at the moment for a lot of different people. Likewise, Canada's official position on the Holodomor is more about making domestic political hay than anything else.

There's considerably more ambiguity as to what role intent played in the Holodomor.

I'm not denying that. My point was that the Canadian government has taken definitive stances on geopolitical events outside our borders more than once. I think it's also worth pointing out that the CBC does give some weight to the Turkish side of the debate, which is something that didn't happen in the article which vyelkin was criticizing. But, as you say, this may have more to do with Turkey's status as a NATO ally and Communist Russia being almost universally reviled among the powers that be in the West.

vyelkin posted:

It's literally just the word "deliberately" that could be at all controversial in that statement.

If you want to add a sentence that the Canadian government recognizes it as a deliberate act of genocide that's fine. Or if you want to say that the CBC itself, or the journalist who wrote the story, or even the Ukrainian-Canadian community, recognizes it as a deliberate act of genocide, that's fine too. The only thing I take issue with is a supposedly trusted source of news like the CBC just including a blanket statement that one side of the historiography's interpretation of events is correct, without even acknowledging that there is an academic debate about it at all.

Okay, that makes sense. Thanks for your answer. I agree.

I looked up the writer, and she's the beat reporter for the Alberta Legislature, and recently posted a few things on Twitter about the publishing crunch she's under. I have to wonder if it wasn't simply an error of judgment on her part, or perhaps it's more of a case of the Holodomor's deliberate intent being the agreed-upon facts in the bubble in which she lives and works. I don't know what the CBC's publishing policies are, and whether they have an editor who has to approve articles for the web, but I'm willing to guess they don't. I don't know how many places even do that anymore, because it slows down the ability to break news instantly, which is the demand these days.

You could always write a quick note about it. I'm friends with more than a few journalists and while they hate being told they're wrong, the more level-headed ones will usually come around to the fact that it's a chance to learn something new and become better reporters.

Just, you know, don't write an email like someone writing a Facebook comment. :v:

never happy posted:

We do have a history in this country of officially recognizing certain events as straight-up genocide. except when the genocide is on home turf

Self-reflection is hard.

# ? Jun 5, 2016 00:38

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

You know what's even dumber than arguing about this?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/carbon-tax-linked-to-ukrainian-genocide-in-wildrose-post-1.3616083

Arguing that the Holodomor, whether intentional or not, is similar to the Alberta carbon tax.

I think the Wildrose must be sourcing its MPs from special ed classes because I don't think they could be more pig-loving-ignorant if they tried.

# ? Jun 5, 2016 01:22

Chicken: Apr 23, 2014

Remember that attack on the cosmetic surgery clinic in Montreal that was the only one in Canada to do gender reassignment surgery? Turns out that it probably was not a hate crime.

quote:

A B.C. woman has been arrested for carrying out an arson attack on the Montreal surgical clinic that is the only place in Canadian providing the most complex forms of gender reassignment surgery.

Jayne Ellen Heideck, 42, was detained Monday by RCMP officers in Kelowna, B.C., and is being returned to Montreal.

She will face charges stemming from a fire in early May at the Centre m�tropolitain de chirurgie in Montreal.

The blaze started when an assailant burst through a backdoor opened by a staff member and ran up into a surgical suite with an incendiary device. Sprinklers dowsed the flames before firefighters arrived, but the blaze still caused $700,000 in damage.

Police were considered the possibility the attack was a hate crime, because of the clinic�s specialty in gender reassignment surgery (or gender affirming surgery, as is the preferred term) as well as other plastic and bariatric procedures. While a trans person might be able to get cosmetic or upper body surgeries elsewhere in Canada, the private Montreal clinic is the only one in the country that performs the most complicated genital surgeries.

After Heideck�s arrest, police confirmed they did not consider it a hate crime, spokesman Const. Manuel Couture told the Montreal Gazette.

Attempts to contact Heideck or her lawyer, if she has retained one, were unsuccessful.

Yet, there has been much speculation in the media she was a former patient whose surgery was �botched� at the clinic.

�Jayne expressed strong dissatisfaction with having had her surgery a few months after having had her surgery; however, I am not aware of any negative surgical outcomes,� said Morgane Oger, chair of the Trans Alliance Society in Vancouver, who has known the woman for years.

�Jayne was extremely happy to have had the surgery when I picked her up from the airport afterwards,� Oger said, adding that was a feeling that continued for �some time afterward.�

Heideck has family in Nanaimo, B.C., Oger said, adding she last spoke with her days before her arrest.

In the years before and immediately after the procedure, Oger said Heideck was a �nice, well-meaning person� and a dedicated cyclist who made her living fixing bikes in Vancouver.

�She was a happy, easy-going person with all the same struggles that trans persons have.�

But Facebook posts from Heideck�s account and by self-professed friends suggest she started to spiral into mental illness.

It has not been proved that Heideck committed the violent act, but Oger said, if she did, �Even when somebody has every good excuse, there is not justification for the violence this could have been.�

No one was injured in the fire but there were staff and patients in the building.

Repairs are still underway at the clinic, which is meeting patients one by one to discuss whether procedures need to be rescheduled, relocated or go on as normal.

# ? Jun 5, 2016 01:24

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

How do u guys feel about your pm getting cucked by a Ching Chong foreign minister

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Jun 5, 2016 02:49

Eox: Jun 20, 2010; by Fluffdaddy

it's ok guys he's ethnic han

# ? Jun 5, 2016 03:10

Funkdreamer: Jul 15, 2005; It'll be a blast

I like how I have to run through every GBS cliche now to parse the word filter

Did Trudeau get im gayed by the Chinese foreign minister??

# ? Jun 5, 2016 03:31

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

Funkdreamer posted:

I like how I have to run through every GBS cliche now to parse the word filter

Did Trudeau get im gayed by the Chinese foreign minister??

You can also just quote the post and it'll show you the original text.

# ? Jun 5, 2016 03:35

Postess with the Mostest: Apr 4, 2007; Arabian nights
'neath Arabian moons
A fool off his guard
could fall and fall hard
out there on the dunes

Drinking in Ottawa, I'll buy you a pint at the Dom

# ? Jun 5, 2016 04:37

Jordan7hm: Feb 17, 2011; Lipstick Apathy

Ikantski posted:

Drinking in Ottawa, I'll buy you a pint at the Dom

I'm at the warehouse and might take you up on this.

# ? Jun 5, 2016 05:17

de_dust: Jan 21, 2009; she had tiny Italian boobs.
Well that's my story.

PT6A posted:

I think the Wildrose must be sourcing its MPs from special ed classes because I don't think they could be more pig-loving-ignorant if they tried.

What's great is that they're going to govern the province one day. Unless the PCs bounce back but... lol

# ? Jun 5, 2016 08:10

Kindest Forums User: Mar 25, 2008; Let me tell you about my opinion about Bernie Sanders and why Donald Trump is his true successor.

You cannot vote Hillary Clinton because she is worse than Trump.

I can't see the Wildrose party gaining any seats in the urban areas. Edmonton is still going strong for NDP while the PCs are gaining heavily in Calgary. The PCs could do nothing and expect to gain some seats in Calgary. Whereas the Wildrose have everything to lose. They're a fringe party that relies on rural mentality.

February poll:
NDP 27%
Wildrose at 33%
PCs at 31%

Notley's approval rating is not even that bad. She only trails the other parties by no more than 6 points. And those numbers were from a poll conducted before the fires. The media has portrayed her handling of the fires as positive. If her effort to rebuild Fort McMurray goes off well, then she only has room to gain.
And it will also become very difficult to campaign against her if a pipeline gets approved and oil prices rise.

Kindest Forums User fucked around with this message at 12:56 on Jun 5, 2016

# ? Jun 5, 2016 12:53

Albino Squirrel: Apr 25, 2003; Miosis more like meiosis

never happy posted:

I can't see the Wildrose party gaining any seats in the urban areas. Edmonton is still going strong for NDP while the PCs are gaining heavily in Calgary. The PCs could do nothing and expect to gain some seats in Calgary. Whereas the Wildrose have everything to lose. They're a fringe party that relies on rural mentality.

February poll:
NDP 27%
Wildrose at 33%
PCs at 31%

Notley's approval rating is not even that bad. She only trails the other parties by no more than 6 points. And those numbers were from a poll conducted before the fires. The media has portrayed her handling of the fires as positive. If her effort to rebuild Fort McMurray goes off well, then she only has room to gain.
And it will also become very difficult to campaign against her if a pipeline gets approved and oil prices rise.

It would be a never-ending source of hilarity to me if Alberta went NDP as long as the right votes were split. We've had the opposite situation for decades, but now that the Alberta Liberals have well and truly collapsed there's one progressive party left and unless the Wildrose and PCs get their poo poo together the NDP might just sneak in again!

I mean, I can hope, anyways.

# ? Jun 5, 2016 16:32

sbaldrick: Jul 19, 2006; Driven by Hate

Ikantski posted:

Drinking in Ottawa, I'll buy you a pint at the Dom

Do people older the 24 still go to the dom?

# ? Jun 5, 2016 21:34

flakeloaf: Feb 26, 2003; Still better than android clock

Just another example of Ottawa's pervasive drinking culture.

# ? Jun 5, 2016 23:10

crowoutofcontext: Nov 12, 2006

Eox posted:

it's ok guys he's ethnic han

and Mods knew!

# ? Jun 6, 2016 01:18

Pinterest Mom: Jun 9, 2009

https://twitter.com/AndreaMicieli/status/739561295255613441
me irl

# ? Jun 6, 2016 05:51

flakeloaf: Feb 26, 2003; Still better than android clock

Rona Ambrose: The bad man's gone. Our party has 30% less nuts.

And the rest of you were just follohhhkay moving right along.

Now here's some Angry Tom. Remember him, back when we said he mattered? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E6mZ9IB4V4

But he's gone now, let's see what the New New New NDP are up to these days

https://twitter.com/nikiashton/status/739508970386137088

:stare:

flakeloaf fucked around with this message at 13:36 on Jun 6, 2016

# ? Jun 6, 2016 13:32

tagesschau: Sep 1, 2006; Guten Abend, meine Damen und Herren.

flakeloaf posted:

let's see what the New New New NDP are up to these days

https://twitter.com/nikiashton/status/739508970386137088

I'm wondering how they got those shirts, since it's illegal for them to give money to the Sanders campaign. Also, Sanders isn't going to be the nominee.

# ? Jun 6, 2016 14:34

Fried Watermelon: Dec 29, 2008

Can they not buy shirts with personal money?

# ? Jun 6, 2016 15:12

flakeloaf: Feb 26, 2003; Still better than android clock

Nope.

quote:

http://globalnews.ca/news/2330556/sorry-canada-you-cant-buy-that-trump-hat-or-clinton-beer-koozie/

Under rules set out by the Federal Election Commission (FEC), political merchandise is considered a �fundraising item.� The FEC makes it clear �if a contributor spends $20 to buy a campaign T-shirt that cost the campaign $5, the contributor has made a $20 contribution.�

The problem for non-U.S. citizens is that American law clearly prohibits campaign contributions by foreigners.

Under the Frequently Asked Questions section of Hillary Clinton�s website, there�s a warning that �sales are restricted to American citizens� and �orders placed by non-American citizens will be cancelled and refunded.� The only exception is for permanent U.S. residents who hold a green card.

The restrictions don�t stop there: It�s also against the law for foreigners to give money to an American friend or relative to purchase merchandise on their behalf. FEC rules prohibit U.S. citizens from �acting as a conduit or intermediary for foreign national contributions and donations.�

# ? Jun 6, 2016 15:18

Nocturtle: Mar 17, 2007

flakeloaf posted:

Nope.

US elections are weird. After Citizen's United US citizens/corporations can dump an essentially infinite amount of money into any given race, but god help you if you're a non-American buying a Trump hat.

# ? Jun 6, 2016 15:38

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

flakeloaf posted:

Nope.

Maybe they bought them from an unauthorized third party retailer. It would be peak NDP.

# ? Jun 6, 2016 16:01

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# ? Jun 10, 2024 23:36

Hexigrammus: May 22, 2006; Cheech Wizard stories are clean, wholesome, reflective truths that go great with the marijuana munchies and a blow job.

flakeloaf posted:

let's see what the New New New NDP are up to these days

Off to North Dakota to campaign for @BernieSanders! We #FeelTheBern! #BernieBus2 @noamgonick @LeahGAZ @MakinsonAQ pic.twitter.com/6rpRLMv7TS
� Niki Ashton (@nikiashton) June 5, 2016

As much as I want to see Sanders kick arse it really feels wrong to have one of our elected politicians interfering in a foreign election. Hopefully they're paying her, then she can be just like the Lizard of Oz.

Dammit! Now I want a Trump hat and Sanders T shirt. I think they'd give me the same warm fuzzy I used to get seeing Cuban cigars for sale in the local PetroCan and knowing they were illegal just to the south.

# ? Jun 6, 2016 16:17

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > CanPol Megathread: Big Changus

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