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Zudgemud posted:It is much harder to build up a strong left and welfare state solely on borderless internationalist compassion than on one that premiers compassion to those that are the most similar to themselves. Nationalism and the subsequent racism have been great for building all welfare states which have traditionally been the main allure for the left. In short, there is a significant cost for the left movement for taking the ideologically pure stance. But you can't build an egalitarian society on gently caress you got mine. They are ideologically contradictory positions. The solution you espouse might have worked back in a cold war Europe where carrier sanctions was still just a thing nations with a lot of sea had to bother with but years of peace and advances in travel technology have made that position impossible. The EU has spent the last 20 years putting up walls to try to avoid honoring human rights as much as possible and yet in 2015 we still found ourselves where we were. If you're not willing to personally put a gun to refugee's heads they will keep coming. What you're preaching is not an egalitarian solution, it's a neoliberal one straight from the mouth of Nozick himself. Human rights is redistribution. MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 07:28 on Jun 5, 2016 |
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Jun 5, 2016 07:26
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Puistokemisti posted:Death to the white devil. If you look at polling data, another government of the the 3 right wing parties is extremely unlikely. Persut has fallen off a cliff, having 8,5% support, the same as the Left Alliance btw, while both the Greens and Social Democrats have been steadily gaining. If elections were held now the government would almost certainly be red-green.
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Jun 5, 2016 07:30
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MiddleOne posted:But you can't build an egalitarian society on gently caress you got mine. They are ideologically contradictory positions. But the building of a strong left state have always included a hefty amount of nationalism as that is an easy way for achieving the necessary unity for enacting reforms. And moving away from that point for a more ideologically pure one will have consequences for the power and popularity of the left, especially in this day and age when individualism is the norm. Also, it is great that both you and and the previous poster put lots of words in my mouth to make it seem like I'm arguing for a position that runs counter to yours.
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Jun 5, 2016 08:11
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Zudgemud posted:But the building of a strong left state have always included a hefty amount of nationalism as that is an easy way for achieving the necessary unity for enacting reforms. And historically those states have fallen. The track record of nationalist leftist states isn't really much better than non-nationalist ones. Hell, the USSR was an extremely diverse nation.
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Jun 5, 2016 08:20
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computer parts posted:And historically those states have fallen. The track record of nationalist leftist states isn't really much better than non-nationalist ones. Hell, the USSR was an extremely diverse nation. Albeit one with a massive undercurrent of Russian chauvinism (which I think is your point). There was never any doubt which SSR was in charge, or which ethnicity was the most favored one - and that factor ended up playing a pretty decisive role in the USSR's collapse.
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Jun 5, 2016 08:25
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Zudgemud posted:But the building of a strong left state have always included a hefty amount of nationalism as that is an easy way for achieving the necessary unity for enacting reforms. And moving away from that point for a more ideologically pure one will have consequences for the power and popularity of the left, especially in this day and age when individualism is the norm. So politics can never change? Guess I'll just lay down and die then.  Zudgemud posted:Also, it is great that both you and and the previous poster put lots of words in my mouth to make it seem like I'm arguing for a position that runs counter to yours. We are simply going to the logical conclusion of your vague hypotheticals. Europe can't return to the national liberal socialism of the pre-80's without giving up on liberalism itself. That door is shut.
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Jun 5, 2016 08:26
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MiddleOne posted:So politics can never change? Guess I'll just lay down and die then. Of course politics can change, but the fundamentals of people caring more about people similar to themselves than others is not something that changes over a generation. It has been and continues to be much harder to sell an ideology of compassion when you have to extend that compassion to people the populace/electorate feel less kinship with. Which is one of the many reasons why the left has been in decline for the last few decades. And to say that a racist left is selfdefeating is true in the long term for ideologically pure communism but it seems to work great in moderation for the startup phase for social democracy and anything else that requires great sweeping reforms for the common good.
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Jun 5, 2016 09:22
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I could buy that argument for the US but not for northern Europe.
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Jun 5, 2016 09:26
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doverhog posted:If you look at polling data, another government of the the 3 right wing parties is extremely unlikely. Persut has fallen off a cliff, having 8,5% support, the same as the Left Alliance btw, while both the Greens and Social Democrats have been steadily gaining. If elections were held now the government would almost certainly be red-green. SDP's rise mirror's True Finns fall, so it's probably just disillusioned workers saying that they are going back to their old party. However, this doesn't automatically translate into votes for SDP because people who already jumped the ship once are probably pretty tired of SDP's poo poo too. Also, there's pretty huge group of undecideds. If left wants to win the next elections, they need to both energize their own base and convince the undecideds about their message. What will actually happen is that Rinne will wring his hands about racism and introduce a new token minority party member. I was going to joke that he would also hold a speech at soup kitchen about struggles of blind transsexual brazilian factory worker but that would involve talking about worker's issues to workers and that's not going to happen. Meanwhile economy is probably going to pick up or at least stumble forward a bit despite government's best efforts, for which the current rightwing parties will claim credit. We are going to have rightwing/neolib government next elections too because left is too incompetent to actually do anything.
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Jun 5, 2016 09:59
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You have some very bizarre fantasies about blind Brazilians and what Rinne is going to do. Leaving that aside, SDP is polling as the biggest party right now and don't really have to do anything except not be part of the SSS government to stay there.
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Jun 5, 2016 10:38
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The whole "kinship" thing is built on a relatively cunning deception. That is, what would happen to other ethnicities in the pure radical centrist states? The belief that Asian Brits are fully accepted as ethnically "British" is a soap-bubble popped by glancing at the front page of any given tabloid. So, are they to be genocided? Ethnically cleansed? Or, rather, made into a terrorized underclass that can be used by the right to devastate any attempts at preserving or expanding even center-left policies? Because even if the left stains their hands with the commission of such evils, there's always the multiethnic nature of most of Europe, and then regional differences, and sex and sexuality and more and more. The ability to set people against one another is capable of working on even arbitrary differences. And the left, fully devoured by the right and a new left unwilling and unable to use the tainted language and knowledge of the old, will scarcely be able to resist. The end result is a hellish dystopia lasting for God knows how many years. In the end, the origin of people's vulnerability to this poisonous belief seems to rise from the idea that leftism is about reflecting what "the people" want, rather than an ideology that seeks, broadly, to convince people 1) of the misery of their situation, 2) their ability to escape their situation, and 3) the tools by which this escape can be completes.
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Jun 5, 2016 15:23
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Brainiac Five posted:The whole "kinship" thing is built on a relatively cunning deception. That is, what would happen to other ethnicities in the pure radical centrist states? The belief that Asian Brits are fully accepted as ethnically "British" is a soap-bubble popped by glancing at the front page of any given tabloid. So, are they to be genocided? Ethnically cleansed? Or, rather, made into a terrorized underclass that can be used by the right to devastate any attempts at preserving or expanding even center-left policies? Because even if the left stains their hands with the commission of such evils, there's always the multiethnic nature of most of Europe, and then regional differences, and sex and sexuality and more and more. The ability to set people against one another is capable of working on even arbitrary differences. And the left, fully devoured by the right and a new left unwilling and unable to use the tainted language and knowledge of the old, will scarcely be able to resist. The end result is a hellish dystopia lasting for God knows how many years. Jezus Christ, what kind of loving drivel is this? The UNA bomber transcripts make more sense. No wonder the left is the foomed dead end sewer bend of modern politics. Lagotto fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Jun 5, 2016 |
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Jun 5, 2016 18:15
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In other news I present you this highly scientific pol (probably online voting) by the guy who quite literally owns the country of Belize: https://twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/739493804504428546 And here is what noted Left wing propagandist Paul Mason has to say on the issue: https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/739212892768239617 I believe he went to the Varoufakis school of negotiation
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Jun 5, 2016 18:29
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Lagotto posted:Jezus Christ, what kind of loving drivel is this? The UNA bomber transcripts make more sense. No wonder the left is the foomed dead end sewer bend of modern politics. In short, relying on FYGM as a basis of leftist policy is flawed because the definition of who you identify with is arbitrary. People can always create an outgroup to scapegoat. So first it's only the citizens of (eg) the UK that deserve a safety net. Then it's the English specifically. Then it's the White English specifically. Then it's the White English in the London Area. continue on and on.
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Jun 5, 2016 18:33
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GaussianCopula posted:And here is what noted Left wing propagandist Paul Mason has to say on the issue: Paul Mason has been predicting that this crisis will overthrow capitalism finally guys, really for a good 20 years. His analysis of politics is often very insightful, but he's one of those lizard beings known as an 'optimist' so if you think what he's saying sounds sensible then it probably won't happen.
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Jun 5, 2016 22:10
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In other words, about that brexit: if you split the +65 age group, you find that ...  It is literally the baby boomers generation throwing a fit.
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Jun 7, 2016 10:08
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It's almost like the people who have had the easiest ride through life will blame literally anything but themselves for any inconvenience.
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Jun 7, 2016 11:51
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I'm still trying to figure out what exactly that inconvenience is. What did the EU do to Britain, that is so horrible, that they need to leave as soon as possible? Did someone touch Britain in a private place or something?
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Jun 7, 2016 12:23
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waitwhatno posted:I'm still trying to figure out what exactly that inconvenience is. What did the EU do to Britain, that is so horrible, that they need to leave as soon as possible? Did someone touch Britain in a private place or something?
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Jun 7, 2016 12:27
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waitwhatno posted:I'm still trying to figure out what exactly that inconvenience is. What did the EU do to Britain, that is so horrible, that they need to leave as soon as possible? Did someone touch Britain in a private place or something? Well, to their eyes, immigration, the state of the economy, the fact that the trains don't run on time, the unemployment rate, health and safety 'gone mad' (you can't even make toast in the bath anymore, thanks brussels), things being in metric instead of imperial (yes, really) and idea that if we stay in any longer we'll all have to speak French, wear lederhosen and ale will have to contain tiny floating EU flags to be legally for sale. They're idiots, op.
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Jun 7, 2016 12:43
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waitwhatno posted:I'm still trying to figure out what exactly that inconvenience is. What did the EU do to Britain, that is so horrible, that they need to leave as soon as possible? Did someone touch Britain in a private place or something? Until the end of the second world war Britain was still a mighty empire ruling the waves and never seeing the sunset and all that jazz. At least in theory. So for a certain section of the British population that is the ideal state of affairs and anything that seems like it might be opposed to that, such as being a theoretically equal member of a pan-european somewhat democratic union, is literally the worst thing in the world and Britain could do everything so much better if only we built more dreadnoughts than Jerry and re-established the colonies and dug Queen Victoria back up and god knows what else. There's a strong implicit nationalist streak in British culture that just sort of assumes that Britain could rule the world if it felt like it and we've really just been letting everyone else get away with thinking they have agency, and it's time we stopped doing that.
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Jun 7, 2016 15:59
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I'm torn between wanting the UK to stay because it would be a shitshow if they didn't, and wanting them to leave so I can see the shitshow it would be.
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Jun 7, 2016 16:11
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YF-23 posted:I'm torn between wanting the UK to stay because it would be a shitshow if they didn't, and wanting them to leave so I can see the shitshow it would be. That sentiment is I think also a major part of the support for Trump in America. I wonder how big the "I want to see the world burn" party was in PiS' electoral victory.
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Jun 7, 2016 16:52
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Friendly Humour posted:That sentiment is I think also a major part of the support for Trump in America. I wonder how big the "I want to see the world burn" party was in PiS' electoral victory. Insignificant.
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Jun 7, 2016 17:02
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OwlFancier posted:Until the end of the second world war Britain was still a mighty empire ruling the waves and never seeing the sunset and all that jazz. At least in theory. Yes, I get it. But why leave the EU for that? What about the EU hinders Britain to rule the waves or whatever? They have it now in writing that countries can opt-out of any further integration. Whhhyy leave? The trade agreements they are gonna have to make with the EU are not gonna be any better, because we already have almost complete economic integration right now. The new free movement agreements are not gonna be any better either, cause they can only treat with the Shengen zone as a whole and Poland is in Shengen. If you told me that Britain wants to leave because they need to revoke the ECHR and conquer some colonies or something, I would be totally satisfied because at least that makes sense.
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Jun 7, 2016 18:39
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waitwhatno posted:Yes, I get it. But why leave the EU for that? What about the EU hinders Britain to rule the waves or whatever? They have it now in writing that countries can opt-out of any further integration. Whhhyy leave? The trade agreements they are gonna have to make with the EU are not gonna be any better, because we already have almost complete economic integration right now. The new free movement agreements are not gonna be any better either, cause they can only treat with the Shengen zone as a whole and Poland is in Shengen. It doesn't make any sense, politics are not rational.
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Jun 7, 2016 18:47
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waitwhatno posted:Yes, I get it. But why leave the EU for that? What about the EU hinders Britain to rule the waves or whatever? They have it now in writing that countries can opt-out of any further integration. Whhhyy leave? The trade agreements they are gonna have to make with the EU are not gonna be any better, because we already have almost complete economic integration right now. The new free movement agreements are not gonna be any better either, cause they can only treat with the Shengen zone as a whole and Poland is in Shengen. Because many Britons are extremely ill informed about what the EU is, does, and restricts us from doing, as well as being severely misapprehensive of exactly how powerful Britain as an international entity is. Again, some people still think Britain is the single most important nation on earth. And that it could enforce this importance if it wanted to. They don't think we need to negotiate with the EU if we leave it, we can do absolutely fine on our own because we once did historically, by Some will probably couch it in less inflammatory language but the common, core idea is that Britain Is The Best and everyone and everything else can go suck a dick, preferably ours. You know that stupid idea that America likes to propgate that it's the sole beacon of ultimate freedom in a world of darkness and tyranny? Well the UK has a similar idea that it's the sole beacon of civilization and everything else just doesn't really count and isn't important. Which has its roots in the Empire but has carried on even as the Empire progressively told Britain to please gently caress off if that would be possible or we'll make you. Britain has a very strong implicit nationalism in its culture which manifests in the sort of unshakeable background assumption that it doesn't have to seriously worry about external problems, and anything it does have to worry about is entirely a result of mismanagement, which the current government likes to blame on the previous government (which was 10 years ago) and the infiltration of devious foreigners and terrorists into our society, on people being too lazy to work, or on the EU. Basically Britain's only problems in the popular consciousness are 1. Other British people. 2. Immigrants. 3. The EU. Leaving the EU solves 2 and 3 to many people's mind. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Jun 7, 2016 |
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Jun 7, 2016 18:51
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Welp, you are completely hosed as a nation. Good luck with that.
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Jun 7, 2016 19:01
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YF-23 posted:I'm torn between wanting the UK to stay because it would be a shitshow if they didn't, and wanting them to leave so I can see the shitshow it would be. For maximum schadenfreude, I'm hoping for a Brexit followed by a Scoxit.
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Jun 7, 2016 19:35
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I'm starting to wonder if there'll be an Italexit (ouch) in the nearish future.
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Jun 7, 2016 19:38
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Cat Mattress posted:For maximum schadenfreude, I'm hoping for a Brexit followed by a Scoxit. An exit from the exit?
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Jun 7, 2016 19:39
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Cat Mattress posted:For maximum schadenfreude, I'm hoping for a Brexit followed by a Scoxit. Followed by Scotland joining the EU. I'm willing to bet a lot of Brexit proponents were threatening Scotland with the prospect of being unable to join the EU post-independence.
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Jun 7, 2016 19:41
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Cat Mattress posted:For maximum schadenfreude, I'm hoping for a Brexit followed by a Scoxit.
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Jun 7, 2016 19:44
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Can the UK force Scotland to leave the EU if they don't want to?
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Jun 7, 2016 20:31
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doverhog posted:Can the UK force Scotland to leave the EU if they don't want to? Yes, the UK is one country with some devolved powers to its component countries. Wales/Scotland/Northern Ireland are more akin to US states than independent countries. They have some authority but only as far as is granted by Westminster, which is also the government of England. It would be like Nevada opting out of a treaty that the US signed. Also because we have parliamentary sovereignty, Westminster can theoretically do whatever it wants to anyway but generally that's not pressed because people get antsy when it's used to do things that aren't popular.
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Jun 7, 2016 20:35
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Ignoring legislative realities though, the EU membership uncertainty was one of the key reasons the independence vote failed. If the UK actually leaves, the wind is going to change very quickly.
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Jun 7, 2016 21:14
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Though of course Westminster doesn't need to actually pay any heed to that, Scotland has no legal power to do anything about that short of unilaterally declaring independence which is unlikely. It would make for interesting television though.
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Jun 7, 2016 21:17
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OwlFancier posted:Though of course Westminster doesn't need to actually pay any heed to that, Scotland has no legal power to do anything about that short of unilaterally declaring independence which is unlikely. Well... that's about when the violence starts. Most troublespots start small.
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Jun 7, 2016 21:20
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As I say, interesting television. It would be fun to watch the government's attempts to spin/suppress any dissent on the matter. I mean, it would be more fun if I wasn't in the country at the time but y'know. If Rome is burning you might as well break out the marshmallows.
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Jun 7, 2016 23:53
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YF-23 posted:I'm torn between wanting the UK to stay because it would be a shitshow if they didn't, and wanting them to leave so I can see the shitshow it would be. I have to admit that despite my personal opinion and voting intention for the referendum, I'm more interested in the post-ref fallout regardless of the outcome. The sheer amount of piss and tears from the losing side...
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Jun 8, 2016 00:00
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