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theflyingorc posted:maybe you should spend your time thinking about literally anything else The censorship thing is only over anime/video games (read:stuff that has to be translated for 90% of the English speaking population to enjoy) too, I've never seen it for comics.
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Jun 9, 2016 15:52
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Travis343 posted:The killing joke is garbage, and should be forgotten A comic by Alan Moore that's full of rapey horseshit? Well I never~! The trailers and stuff that I've seen for the Killing Joke animation is- well, the animation looks terrible. Like; the comic looks like it's got better animation.
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Jun 9, 2016 16:02
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i like the killing joke just fine but i don't love it it's probably my least favorite of Moore's big important comics from his early career, read his Swamp Thing instead No seriously do read Moore's Swamp Thing.
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Jun 9, 2016 16:06
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I'm honestly very upset the cast of BTAS are doing voices for it, like sure, ruin this precious beautiful thing you had, good plan
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Jun 9, 2016 16:08
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Travis343 posted:I'm honestly very upset the cast of BTAS are doing voices for it, like sure, ruin this precious beautiful thing you had, good plan BTAS already has a literal canoncial story where the Joker tortured Tim Drake into insanity followed by Tim Drake murdering him/almost murdering him and accidentally murdering him and has strongly implied that the major breakup between Dick Grayson and Bruce Wayne is that Bruce Wayne slept with Barbara Gordon. So... kinda a bit late to go 'they're RUINING IT FOREVER." Complaining that they're souring your memories of B:TAS by touching the Killing Joke when the most recent project they worked on were Arkham Knight (which features an in-game version of the Killing Joke scene) is also silly.
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Jun 9, 2016 16:10
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ImpAtom posted:has strongly implied that the major breakup between Dick Grayson and Bruce Wayne is that Bruce Wayne slept with Barbara Gordon. Wait What
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Jun 9, 2016 16:13
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Toxxupation posted:Wait It's established pretty firmly in Batman Beyond that Barbara and Bruce hooked up and that is what drove Dick Grayson away and at least strongly implied they did it while Dick and Barbara were together. (There's a comic that made that last bit canonical but it isn't in the show so you're free to ignore it.) So yeah, that's in the actual show.
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Jun 9, 2016 16:18
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Toxxupation posted:Wait It's implied in both Batman Beyond movie by Gordon herself and in the DTV Mystery of the Batwoman movie where for filandering Bruce is constantly avoiding her calls.
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Jun 9, 2016 16:19
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Well that's something I literally never needed to know.
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Jun 9, 2016 16:20
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Jun 9, 2016 16:28
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Superheros were a mistake.
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Jun 9, 2016 16:30
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IIRC the Barbara/Bruce relationship was another one of those "can we actually get away with writing this?" things that the DCAU did a lot. Unlike those other cases I almost never see it brought up, hmm I wonder why.
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Jun 9, 2016 16:30
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Travis343 posted:Superheros were a mistake.
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Jun 9, 2016 16:34
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notthegoatseguy posted:I really like The Killing Joke, and that's coming from someone who doesn't usually like DC/Batman or Alan Moore. It looks like a rushed out piece of poo poo like all of DC's recent animated movies. For as much complaining as there is about what Killing Joke did to the oh-so memorable character of Batgirl, it's one of the better Batman stories ever written. It was never meant to be anything more than just a one-off story that may or may not be canon, and resenting it for decisions DC made after it was published never made sense to me. And for the record I never thought Joker raped her, just took really hosed up naked pictures of her while she was unconscious and bleeding out, which is traumatic enough for Gordon. Sure, it's "rapey" but I honestly don't think we were ever supposed to think it was anything more. Lurdiak fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Jun 9, 2016 |
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Jun 9, 2016 16:35
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Did she get a batabortion? Why wasn't she using a nuvabataring?
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Jun 9, 2016 16:36
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She miscarries after getting into a brawl.Travis343 posted:Superheros were a mistake.
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Jun 9, 2016 16:37
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I don't like Batman anymore.
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Jun 9, 2016 16:38
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Lurdiak posted:I don't like Batman anymore. I'm left wondering if I ever actually liked Batman.
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Jun 9, 2016 16:46
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Don't worry. Tony Stark was secretly a double agent the entire time and was replaced by a teenage version of himself. The Tony Stark we know now is actually a fusion of the teenage version with Franklin Richard's memories, Hal Jordan slept with a teenager, Cyclops abandoned his wife and child to hook back up with his ex-girlfriend and Spider-Man was molested as a child and beat his wife. All your favorite superheroes have awful secrets. Edit: Honestly, "molested as a child" isn't really the same as the rest of those (though is canonical) so let's just stick with the good ol' standby of "literally sold his marriage to the devil." ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Jun 9, 2016 |
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Jun 9, 2016 16:53
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Peter having been molested as a child makes perfect sense as a way to inform his character, to me.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:03
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Excuse me, she was actually a 500 year old alien who only looks like a teenager.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:06
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I thought she was a teenager but her planet goes around the sun slightly slower so in earth years she was totally eighteen. When did Spiderman beat his wife? Or as JJ might ask, when did Spiderman stop beating his wife?
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Jun 9, 2016 17:10
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greatn posted:I thought she was a teenager but her planet goes around the sun slightly slower so in earth years she was totally eighteen. She was like 17 or something, but they explained that because her planet takes so long she's more than 6570 Earth days old. Because that fixes it, of course.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:12
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Lurdiak posted:It looks like a rushed out piece of poo poo like all of DC's recent animated movies. Yeah this sums up how I feel as well. It wasn't until that controversial Batgirl cover came around that I learned a bunch of people thought she was raped. In hindsight I can see how people thought that, I just never did. I kinda thought him not doing it was psychological warfare. Make Gordon think he did. The worst thing DC has done to Batman is constantly try and hammer Killing Joke and TDKR into proper canon. They don't fit and aren't meant to. Though I will say that's far more true for TDKR than KJ.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:13
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greatn posted:I thought she was a teenager but her planet goes around the sun slightly slower so in earth years she was totally eighteen. 
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Jun 9, 2016 17:16
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Whether or not Joker literally penetrated her with his chalk white clown dick shooting a person, stripping her naked, and taking pictures of her is inarguably sexual assault so the semantic argument of how it's not that bad, it wasn't technically rape, is hugely irrelevant to how terrible killing joke is
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Jun 9, 2016 17:23
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Travis343 posted:Whether or not Joker literally penetrated her with his chalk white clown dick shooting a person, stripping her naked, and taking pictures of her is inarguably sexual assault so the semantic argument of how it's not that bad, it wasn't technically rape, is hugely irrelevant to how terrible killing joke is It's actually a pretty relevant distinction. Not because it makes it "less bad" but because it's a different context. It's more akin to the way people are dehumanized in Guantanamo Bay than a guy raping a woman in an alley in a sleazy 70s italian movie. They're both horrific real life acts but their context in fiction is totally different and trying to pretend they're the same because they fit a legal definition is really tone deaf and childish.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:26
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Travis343 posted:Whether or not Joker literally penetrated her with his chalk white clown dick shooting a person, stripping her naked, and taking pictures of her is inarguably sexual assault so the semantic argument of how it's not that bad, it wasn't technically rape, is hugely irrelevant to how terrible killing joke is Nobody has drawn a "less bad" line in the sand here. There's a slight disagreement on what happened in an ambiguous series of panels. Calm down.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:30
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Jamesman posted:Rape is never funny, unless you're being raped by a clown. Rape is awesome if the Joker is doing it! As I mentioned, people who like Joker seem to want him to be less Clown Prince of Crime, and more like a horror movie villain. They want him to appear suddenly, do something horrible, something terrible, and then vanish scott free while Batman gnashes his teeth and says he can't do anything because he and the joker are two sides of the same coin. There are also the people who say Batman can beat anyone (except the Joker). They also got SUPER pissed off that this cover was recalled  Honestly, it was these fans that drove me away from reading Batman more than the stories, though they were getting weaker as the New 52 went on.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:32
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twistedmentat posted:Rape is awesome if the Joker is doing it! I think you're conflating different groups of awful people, for what it's worth.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:35
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I actually enjoyed the animated adaptations of Year One and Dark Knight Returns but Warner does seem to be over-reaching with Killing Joke, and the animation seems a lot worst than Y1 and DKR. As for the story itself, the premise itself is interesting enough (Joker's idea that it just takes one bad day to drive a sane man crazy) but the story itself isn't really that great. Honestly the best thing to come out of it was Oracle and that was Ostrander being an awesome writer.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:39
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Lurdiak posted:I think you're conflating different groups of awful people, for what it's worth. They all seem to hang out in the same places though. When I actively participated on DC discussion online, I'd encounter all these people all the same time.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:40
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I wouldn't say over reaching. It's not like Killing Joke's complicated to animate. They just cheaped out.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:41
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My issue is that it's transparently obvious what Moore was going for (Joker violating Barbara Gordon, whether he raped her or not is splitting ontological hairs and missing the whole point of the sequence) and DC's repeated backpedaling about it, this flat insistence that Joker didn't actually rape Barbara nuh-uh down to, again, an issue of Oracle putting awkward dialog into Barbara's mouth to explain how it was "just" naked pictures is really gross. If you want to keep KJ as "canon", fine, but honor and don't shy away from the greater implications of the sequence especially when it's done so DC can transparently pretend Joker is a super awesome and amazing villain that you should totes like over a sociopathic rapey mass murdering monster. Like, it's DC desperately trying to have its cake and eat it too, because KJ is this beloved comic so yeah of course it's now the permanent canon forever while at the same time sanding off any edges that make Joker truly irredeemable and grotesque by editorial fiat reiterating over and over that Joker didn't actually rape her, so it's fine. It's DC completely missing the forest for the trees, as if Joker not doing "actual" rape somehow makes him likable and a character you're supposed to root for. It's indicative of DC's completely awful stance re: violence and violation of women and specifically sexual assault, where the effects are never honored and used as a plot point to reiterate how dark and gritty the world of DC is. You saw it in Identity Crisis, you saw it in the aftereffects of KJ where it's now the new canon but I've read exactly one time where the naked pictures sequence are treated as a trauma on the level of Barbara being shot (and that was, again, in that same issue of Oracle where Barbara says something akin to "It's almost as horrible as when I got shot"), you saw it with the entire treatment of Stephanie Brown as Robin and specifically her death, where women are mistreated and abused by stories without ever once thinking about how they affect the victims. What makes it worse is that the KJ "no rape" thing is a pure capitalistic move on DC's part where they want to keep Batman's greatest villain around to stick in everything and even produce two more copies of him to run around the greater DC comics universe but they don't want to make him a completely irreedeemable monster (as if, among others, beating a child to death with a crowbar and being a mass-murdering, spouse-abusing psychopath doesn't make him cross that line) so they've shied away from all of the rapey aspects of KJ. It's really loving gross, where it's DC completely misunderstanding why Joker's so repugnant now.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:46
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ImpAtom posted:Don't worry. What's this Iron Man nonsense? I know there was a teenage version of him in some kind of comics before, but the rest is Chinese to me.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:47
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Lurdiak posted:It's actually a pretty relevant distinction. Not because it makes it "less bad" but because it's a different context. It's more akin to the way people are dehumanized in Guantanamo Bay than a guy raping a woman in an alley in a sleazy 70s italian movie. They're both horrific real life acts but their context in fiction is totally different and trying to pretend they're the same because they fit a legal definition is really tone deaf and childish. How are their context in fiction at all different? Both rape and sexual assault would have nearly the same symbolism, themes, and narrative consequences.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:49
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Maybe it's because I'm not crazy but I don't think there's anything wrong with them saying they like one part of the story but not another.
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Jun 9, 2016 17:50
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Aphrodite posted:Maybe it's because I'm not crazy but I don't think there's anything wrong with them saying they like one part of the story but not another. All babies must be tossed with the bath water.
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Jun 9, 2016 18:26
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Killing Joke is well drawn. It has good artwork. Thats pretty much it.
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Jun 9, 2016 18:31
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Isn't Moore on record as having regretted that aspect of Killing Joke?
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Jun 9, 2016 19:37
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