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He regrets a lot of things about it, namely that it's too thematically similar to Watchmen and that DC just kept trying to redo it for 30 years. I think his main regret towards Barbara is that they made it in continuity and had Barbara become a crippled victim for decades after the fact, which is not great for one of DC's 3 recognizable female heroes.
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Jun 9, 2016 19:45
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I don't think Moore regrets Killing Joke so much as he regrets the fact that Killing Joke became an in-continuity story that people used to set the tone which was never its intent.
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Jun 9, 2016 19:47
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Jude Law revealed on a talk show the other day that Singer tried to get him for Superman in Superman Returns, but Law thought he looked stupid in the costume.
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Jun 9, 2016 20:09
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ImpAtom posted:I don't think Moore regrets Killing Joke so much as he regrets the fact that Killing Joke became an in-continuity story that people used to set the tone which was never its intent. I went off Moore when I realised he's incapable of writing a comic that doesn't involve rape at some point.
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Jun 9, 2016 20:46
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:I went off Moore when I realised he's incapable of writing a comic that doesn't involve rape at some point. Alan Moore has written a lot of comics that don't involve rape so... Edit: Like at bare minimum the dude wrote Superman, Green Lantern, and various other characters with no rape whatosever. The dude has weird things in some of his stories but it's pretty disrespectful to try to qualify him as The Rape Guy and seems to be a result of people being mad at Alan Moore for other things more than anything. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Jun 9, 2016 |
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Jun 9, 2016 20:47
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Besides, everyone knows The Rape Guy is Garth Ennis.
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Jun 9, 2016 21:06
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Or Millar
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Jun 9, 2016 21:10
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Rape Guy is the second-worst superhero.
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Jun 9, 2016 21:16
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:I went off Moore when I realised he's incapable of writing a comic that doesn't involve rape at some point. Highly recommend reading Top 10.
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Jun 9, 2016 21:29
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Madkal posted:Highly recommend reading Top 10. Think a bit harder about what happens in the first volume
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Jun 9, 2016 21:33
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I might need to re-read those. I remember the stuff with the corrupt cops and the traffic disaster
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Jun 9, 2016 21:57
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Think a bit harder about what happens in the first volume You mean the second volume, but then that's more about authority figures abusing their power and what they're doing is shown to be super, mega, ultra wrong to the point where they manipulate their leader into killing himself because they know he'll never be able to get a proper trial due to this money and influence Or are you talking about the Goose? But yea, when you have a character so popular as the Joker, you need to set limits on how terrible he can be. You cannot have someone you sell tshirts of being a rapist or a racist. Having him kill people is perfectly fine because we as a society have said that violence in fiction is acceptable for characters we like. It's like when the reboot of Nightmare on Elm Street had Freddy be a child killer and rapist, rather than just a killer like in the originals, because Freddy is a massively popular pop icon, but as soon as you make someone a rapist, people go "nope!". I remember people in the horror community being very upset at this because they have Freddy tattoos and shirt and don't want to be walking around with rapist on their arm.
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Jun 9, 2016 22:13
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Lurdiak posted:He regrets a lot of things about it, namely that it's too thematically similar to Watchmen and that DC just kept trying to redo it for 30 years. I think his main regret towards Barbara is that they made it in continuity and had Barbara become a crippled victim for decades after the fact, which is not great for one of DC's 3 recognizable female heroes. Killing Joke was 1988 and Oracle (the best version of Barbara Gordon and the best hero she's been) debuted in 1989. So, uh.
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Jun 9, 2016 22:13
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Toxxupation posted:Killing Joke was 1988 and Oracle (the best version of Barbara Gordon and the best hero she's been) debuted in 1989. So, uh. How is that different from anything he said.
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Jun 9, 2016 22:18
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I think it's really reductionary at best to label Oracle as a "crippled victim". Unless you mean that literally, as in she's a victim and she's crippled, over figuratively as if she sat around in a wheelchair for issues on end sobbing about KJ.
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Jun 9, 2016 22:20
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I was not being figurative.
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Jun 9, 2016 22:23
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I like how on Arrow they made Felicity Oracle for like three episodes until Mr Terrific says "nah, here's a cure for paralysis, I made it just for you" and Felicity is like "Yes please".
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Jun 9, 2016 22:24
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twistedmentat posted:You mean the second volume Yeah, should've said series.
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Jun 9, 2016 22:35
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Toxxupation posted:I think it's really reductionary at best to label Oracle as a "crippled victim". Unless you mean that literally, as in she's a victim and she's crippled, over figuratively as if she sat around in a wheelchair for issues on end sobbing about KJ. The wrong writer on Barbara would absolutely dwell on KJ in the worst way. Even Gail Simone, who wrote Birds of Prey for years, when Barbara came back as Batgirl in the new 52, seemed to not be able to go an issue without a Hawaiian shirt or a flying coffee mug.
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Jun 9, 2016 22:53
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greatn posted:I like how on Arrow they made Felicity Oracle for like three episodes until Mr Terrific says "nah, here's a cure for paralysis, I made it just for you" and Felicity is like "Yes please". In a world with magic and bullshit technology, that's exactly how Oracle should've went down. Felicity is trash though.
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Jun 9, 2016 23:05
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Cyborg and Oracle are two DC characters that require a lot of handwaving to keep their defining personal problem intact. Batman got paralyzed once too, it lasted a whoooooooole year.
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Jun 9, 2016 23:14
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Yeah, should've said series. I try to ignore the second series. There was just the first and the 49rs.
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Jun 10, 2016 00:27
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ImpAtom posted:It's established pretty firmly in Batman Beyond that Barbara and Bruce hooked up and that is what drove Dick Grayson away and at least strongly implied they did it while Dick and Barbara were together. (There's a comic that made that last bit canonical but it isn't in the show so you're free to ignore it.) So yeah, that's in the actual show. 
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Jun 10, 2016 00:54
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Lurdiak posted:Cyborg and Oracle are two DC characters that require a lot of handwaving to keep their defining personal problem intact. Eh, I admit, I really strongly dislike the argument of "There was a magic thing in this one story that solved a problem, ergo we should remove all disabled characters from our universe" or whatever. Yeah, it's unrealistic. So is Peter Parker being broke or whatever. It's better to have representations than for literally every single superhero to be a genius supermodel with perfect health and infinite riches.
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Jun 10, 2016 01:10
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Yeah but Barbara was actually offered some of them.
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Jun 10, 2016 01:20
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The Killing Joke may have been ambiguous ,but isn't that comic where the guy sort of saves the Joker or whatever featured Joker straight up raping someone. I don't think it's The Man who Laughs though.
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Jun 10, 2016 01:21
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Brian Azzarello's Joker. I believe that's the whole breadth of Joker rape comics.
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Jun 10, 2016 01:27
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Why.
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Jun 10, 2016 01:38
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SonicRulez posted:Why. I think that was one of the genetic tests that determined Peter was the clone and Ben Reilly the original.
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Jun 10, 2016 01:41
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The Clone Saga ruined everything, this is just another part Remember that part of the goal of this whole thing was to have an unmarried Spider-Man. Which gets brought up years later when they decided to do One More Day.
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Jun 10, 2016 03:53
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The Joker is still considered a villain, right ? A bad guy? THE bad guy most of the time. He murders people constantly. He's a terrorist. How is adding rape to the list of horrible poo poo Joker does every day as a matter of course detracting from the central tenant of "The Joker is a loving Psychopath Who Must Be Stopped?" I'm not even saying The Killing Joke involved a rape scene. Been forever since I've read it. But even it did, is that a bridge to far for a guy we're supposed to hate and who commits horrible crimes because HE thinks it's funny to see people suffer?
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Jun 10, 2016 04:08
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Read this as Batman saying he'll have to congratulate his own penis and it's 1000% better.
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Jun 10, 2016 05:07
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ImpAtom posted:It's established pretty firmly in Batman Beyond that Barbara and Bruce hooked up and that is what drove Dick Grayson away and at least strongly implied they did it while Dick and Barbara were together. (There's a comic that made that last bit canonical but it isn't in the show so you're free to ignore it.) So yeah, that's in the actual show. Because of that and Terry being Bruce's sperm jacked son I just prefer to ignore Batman Beyond entirely.
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Jun 10, 2016 05:15
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E: ^^^ That happened in JLU.BiggerBoat posted:The Joker is still considered a villain, right ? A bad guy? THE bad guy most of the time. He murders people constantly. He's a terrorist. Some of us remember a time when the Joker wasn't a slasher movie villain. We miss those days.
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Jun 10, 2016 05:45
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JT Smiley posted:Because of that and Terry being Bruce's sperm jacked son I just prefer to ignore Batman Beyond entirely. That part was actually in JLU though
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Jun 10, 2016 11:40
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This association of Killing Joke with Slasher Joker is weird, because the comic is explicitly about how Joker is a sad, pathetic man desperately trying to prove that there's some meaning to his suffering. It's the most sympathetic he'll ever be except for that one scene from Grant Morrison's Justice League where he briefly turns sane (I think it even made a visual reference to KJ). BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 14:01 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 13:58
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The main criticism is that a lot of authors use rape/sexual assault in their work for shock value. Which sadly is true in some cases.
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Jun 10, 2016 14:05
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BiggerBoat posted:The Joker is still considered a villain, right ? A bad guy? THE bad guy most of the time. He murders people constantly. He's a terrorist. Rape is not something you should use as shorthand for bad guy the way we use murder. We still have serious social problems about sexual assault and its perception and using it for a cartoonish villain pretty much trivializes the experience of real victims. I can't believe someone has to explain something this basic to you.
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Jun 10, 2016 14:08
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If it helps I heard they were putting extra scenes with Barbera in the movie to address her role in the story
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Jun 10, 2016 14:38
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BiggerBoat posted:The Joker is still considered a villain, right ? A bad guy? THE bad guy most of the time. He murders people constantly. He's a terrorist. We're not supposed to hate the Joker to the extent that we stop buying his comics. That's where the line is.
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Jun 10, 2016 14:40
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