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My opinion on Hell and Pandemonium is either: A) Combine them and just make the Hell lords into Pan lords. Toss the Hell level gen into Pan (as well as some of the themed spawn tables) to add more variety to Pan exploration. Ditch Hell effects or give them to Mummy death curses instead of the current Torment batch. At that point, decide if unique levels should be encountered more often. B) Swap the level gen concepts between Pan and Hell. In more detail, make each Hell three levels: two levels that are Pan style generated and forgotten upon leaving for the dive, and the third being the unique Lord level. For Pan, make it so entering the gate takes you straight to a unique Pan Lord, and can only be entered while there are still unique levels available (with the demonic rune being a level randomly chosen amongst the vaults that currently guarantee a rune placement). This makes Hell shorter (if your character is ready) and an actual dive instead of a staircase scouting followed by actual attempts once you find the path (as well as moves infinite level gen to an area that punishes grinding it similar to Abyss), and shortens Pan to the interesting parts. Both suggestions tragically require Malmutate be deleted. I am sure everybody understands.
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Jun 10, 2016 19:44
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Floodkiller posted:Both suggestions tragically require Malmutate be deleted. I am sure everybody understands. I-I'll reluctantly accept..
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Jun 10, 2016 19:52
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unrelated to anything else if I start as Gl with the helmet that looks like an ugly mummy sarcophagus head, I just hit ctrl-q. and one or two other ugly helmets, and that one dark blue shield. idk if anyone else does this but goddamn I just don't wanna look bad for probably the rest of the game if I can easily help it
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Jun 10, 2016 20:13
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pathetic little tramp posted:I agree on Hells. I've thought what if they were made 27 floors so you would have no incentive to clear everything, but then people would totally clear them anyway. What about a timer on each floor, and if you don't find a down stair by the end of the timer, you get kicked back to the vestibule and those Hell floors get regenerated? Except for floor 7 of course. doesn't really discourage people from clearing everything, just makes it easier to farm level 1 over and over again. the reason to clear out levels is 'there's very little danger and a bunch of cheap xp', so increasing danger from hell effects & reducing cheap xp (terrible zombie chaff) seems like the way to go. MEDS CURE SCHIZOS posted:Why not make each of the Hells specialize in a certain type of effect, with all of them trying to reinforce the current idea that you can't really burst through Hell? could work, if you could make all of them interesting things for the game to drop on the player's head, but i suspect that just varying monster drops might work better. being killed by a pile of pure damage that fell from the sky is much less interactive or fun than getting killed by a big pile of demons, i think.
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Jun 10, 2016 20:17
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i definitely like the idea of having the hell branch ends being lumped into pandemonium, with the unique portals to them being surrounded by a large vault filled with thematic junk on the pan level you're on so you can deliberately choose to go into them or not, and if you pass them up or leave the level without getting the rune then they're put back into the pool. maybe ramp up the appropriate hell effects in the 'unique' hell lord levels so it's like the level is actively trying to force you out. e: i know it's not very likely compared to other solutions, but i've always felt like pan was a tiny bit too sparse and could use some bulking up. Johnny Joestar fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 20:21
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pathetic little tramp posted:How many people truly bitch about "Oh man I got shoals now i can't get swamp" or "Oh man I got snake, now i don't get to do spider or serengetti" I bet if Hell-Pan were rouletted you'd get used to it. Not that I won't get used to it, but I still feel like it would diminish my desire to play after a game because I would have less of a reason to do the early dungeon slog just to get to the parts I like. IronicDongz posted:unrelated to anything else if I start as Gl with the helmet that looks like an ugly mummy sarcophagus head, I just hit ctrl-q. and one or two other ugly helmets, and that one dark blue shield. idk if anyone else does this but goddamn I just don't wanna look bad for probably the rest of the game if I can easily help it PleasingFungus posted:doesn't really discourage people from clearing everything, just makes it easier to farm level 1 over and over again. the reason to clear out levels is 'there's very little danger and a bunch of cheap xp', so increasing danger from hell effects & reducing cheap xp (terrible zombie chaff) seems like the way to go.  Who still is farming exp by the time you are doing Hell? (I admit I farm up with the guaranteed Zig in depths before I tackle extended)
World Famous W fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 20:22
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By the time someone can farm Hell for exp they could just farm the Abyss for exp so I'm not really seeing a point in being concerned about it.
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Jun 10, 2016 20:48
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For Pleasing Fungus or any other devs around: Now that Sojobo is female, has there been any thought given to changing her name? Sojobo is a male mythological figure.
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Jun 10, 2016 21:02
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Rather than sticking to a specific combo until I learn enough to win, like a smart person would, I've been slipping some of the other races into my various Minotaur tryhard attempts. If I want to be fightin' Fomracid, is there a standout god for them? Trog is out, because of the permanent stasis. I figure Oka would be decent. You get his first ability but not his second, but he'd be a sugar daddy to give you fancy armor/shields/weapons. Maybe Mahlkeb (sp?) for the healing and a bit of blasty? I know you can wield a 2h melee weapon + shield, does it also let you wield a 2h range weapon (bow/crossbow) + shield? Do you take a penalty for trying to use ranged weapons while wielding a shield, assuming you've got enough shield skill to use the shield normally? I splatted a couple last night (ironically dying due to falling through shafts accidentally and landing next to deadly stuff), and they seem pretty cool overall.
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Jun 10, 2016 21:10
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Zaodai posted:If I want to be fightin' Fomracid, is there a standout god for them? Trog is out, because of the permanent stasis. I figure Oka would be decent. You get his first ability but not his second, but he'd be a sugar daddy to give you fancy armor/shields/weapons. Maybe Mahlkeb (sp?) for the healing and a bit of blasty? Lugonu is unquestionably best - Trog and Okawaru should both work (I think you actually do get Finesse?), Ru/Makhleb/Fedhas always good. Range + shield works, almost exactly the same as melee. No extra penalty. e: Aw, orb of fire removed my Wild Magic. Granted, trying to cast Torando with that and CPA is a bit rough, even with Chei and the Ring of the Mage. rchandra fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 21:28
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World Famous W posted:
people do it! it's all too real... Prism posted:For Pleasing Fungus or any other devs around: it's been suggested and talked about a little. i personally don't care at all one way or another
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Jun 10, 2016 21:41
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0.18 made Finesse work for Formicids. Or another patch. Either way yes.
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Jun 10, 2016 22:03
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FoFi^O is now arguably better than FoFi^C. ^C hybridizes better, ^O works better as a primarily-a-beater without really good armor drops fairly early on, or significant spellcasting investment. Like, if you're playing a melee Fo, and you can't decide, the best point of comparison (at least for me) is "do you want Finesse, or do you want Iron Shot/Fireball?". And for that, I usually go by weapon choice. Axes, I go for Chei. Anything else, usually long blades, and I go ^O, and go into crossbows instead of spellcasting.
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Jun 10, 2016 22:23
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Legit hell request: Now that ctele is no more, put exit portals in the end vaults. Make them blocked off until you have the rune if you're worried about people using them as emergency escape routes. Basically gently caress hiking back to the exit while hell effects bug you & keep stopping autotravel. It's a waste of time that's never particularly threatening. Haifisch fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 22:30
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Poison Mushroom posted:FoFi^O is now arguably better than FoFi^C. ^C hybridizes better, ^O works better as a primarily-a-beater without really good armor drops fairly early on, or significant spellcasting investment. Your Longswords/Crossbows/Sugar Daddy Oka build is basically what I had in mind. I'll splat a few more of those tonight undoubtedly.
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Jun 10, 2016 22:37
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World Famous W posted:
Serious question, why is there legitimate surprise at people grinding XP late in the game? There's a lot of non-essential stuff you can do at any point in the game, and this includes grinding XP when you no longer "need" it or simply scumming in some way or form. Sometimes people just want to over-prepare because they think their character is not strong enough, sometimes they just want to be a hulked out XL 27 character with even more skills for no reason other than seeing more numbers go up. The beauty of roguelikes like Crawl is you can do this, or if you're more experienced you can quickly and efficiently move through all the runes while having fun figuring out the right strategic and tactical decisions using only exactly what you need.
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Jun 10, 2016 22:41
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Yeah some people are like me who will ask for advice 10 times despite being MiFi overgeared enough to tabfight through V:5.
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Jun 10, 2016 22:43
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Zaodai posted:Your Longswords/Crossbows/Sugar Daddy Oka build is basically what I had in mind. I'll splat a few more of those tonight undoubtedly. 1. If you find a really good sling, don't be afraid to drop a few points into Slings to carry you until you find a good Crossbow. It's not totally optimal, but at +1 Apt, you can afford a few points to shore you up until you get a proper ranged weapon. Just try to keep it low enough that you can get Crossbows over it easily. Sucks having 150+ sling bullets from ammo gifts when you stopped using slings several floors ago. 2. Get shields and armor up to 9 basically as soon as your LB skill is somewhere you're happy with it. Shields up to 9 removes all penalties for your regular shield (and heavy shields are not common enough to be built towards), and Armor up to 9 is piss-easy with a +2 aptitude. 3. Scrolls of Fear replace Scrolls of Teleport for you. Evokable Invisibility is incredibly powerful for not getting pincushioned by ranged enemies. Evokable fog, even more so. 4. Drop a few points in stealth. You're not a stabber, but at +3 aptitude, even in heavy armor, you can pretty easily get up to "I am no longer shouting every time I move" levels, which helps a lot with not getting suddenly overwhelmed when you autoexplore into a pack of enemies. 5. O-Tab, O-Tab, O-Tab, splat, repeat.
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Jun 10, 2016 23:03
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Thanks for the advice. Regarding early game skilling, roughly what should I be doing? Do I do fighting, Long Blades (focused), shields? Focus both weapon and shield? Leave shield off until LB skill gets to a certain point? I have a hard time knowing what I should be prioritizing when in most cases. I know more HP is always useful, and on my fighters and berserkers I tend to just leave whatever my weapon skill of choice is focused until it hits minimum delay, but beyond that I get the feeling I leave too much stuff enabled (and thus it all gets too little xp), or I ignore stuff early that I should be using, or leave it on too long.
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Jun 10, 2016 23:08
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Zaodai posted:Thanks for the advice. Edit Also, I almost forgot another generic Formicid tip: Don't be afraid to shaft early. It takes a little longer than you might anticipate, and you never know what you'll be dropping into, so it's better to do it early than to wait until you're at 15%, then find out you just dropped into a pack of gnolls with 4 HP left.
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Jun 10, 2016 23:36
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Haifisch posted:Legit hell request: ? There's like 3 portals to the vestibule on every floor.
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Jun 10, 2016 23:36
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It's not like you have to do it super specifically or anything, so it doesn't matter that much as long as you're not super spread out. Speaking for myself, though, early on I train nothing but weapon skill. As a formicid, I would probably split it between weapon and shield, but truthfully you can ignore shield training for a while if you want.
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Jun 10, 2016 23:37
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Nanomashoes posted:? There's like 3 portals to the vestibule on every floor. What I'm getting at is there's no reason to waste players' time with hell effects when they've already 'beaten' the floor. I doubt turning them off when you get the rune would ever happen, which is why I suggested putting exit portals in the endvault. Haifisch fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Jun 11, 2016 |
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Jun 11, 2016 00:13
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Haifisch: This mode of thinking completely ignores ninjaiing runes, which exists. I've seen (and supported) the idea that killing the hell's lord turns off local hell effects.
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Jun 11, 2016 00:28
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Haifisch posted:I meant in the end vault. With the rune. That's generally on the opposite end of the floor from the portals. Meaning you're interrupted by way too many hell effects between grabbing the rune and leaving. With no actual gameplay effect, because you've already cleared the floor & effectively made even the worst hell effects more annoying than harmful. Like 2 hell effects, max? It's not that much time wasted if you've cleared the floor.
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Jun 11, 2016 01:32
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I guess you could make it so the exit doesn't spawn unless more than a certain percent of enemies on a level are dead (80?), the rune guardian is dead and the rune has been picked up. Might not even need the enemies bit. I mean, if you kill the guardian is it still ninjaing the rune?
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Jun 11, 2016 01:51
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Got a streak! Got evolution from quaff-id on D:2, it turned into evolution 2, and I spent the rest of the game getting mostly good mutations. Had to be careful with the mp-powered wands one, especially since I spent most of the game with a rF+++ Spirit amulet, but I carried potions of magic around for emergencies and it never came up. Bought a D:12 wand of heal wounds, found the Wrath of Trog, and it only got better from there. I actually got to upgrade from it to an antimagic executioner's axe, which was just disgusting. I was dreading V:5, until I remembered I was an AK and could and should just do Abyss instead. I think I was in very little danger the entire game, honestly.
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Jun 11, 2016 01:59
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Nanomashoes posted:Like 2 hell effects, max? It's not that much time wasted if you've cleared the floor. It's easily more than 2 if you're walking from the rune vault to the exit; a lot of the hell branch ends have long hallways that make you zig-zag and/or go in circles and stuff. Random teleports can shorten the time needed to reach the exit, but that's a Bad Idea if you haven't cleared most of the floor. It used to be that with cTele you could just instantly teleport to the exit, and it always felt like a convenience thing more than anything (unless you ninja'd the rune, of course). dpeg posted:I've seen (and supported) the idea that killing the hell's lord turns off local hell effects. Yes please  it's also satisfying from a flavor standpoint.
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Jun 11, 2016 02:16
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dpeg posted:Haifisch: This mode of thinking completely ignores ninjaiing runes, which exists. I remember there was a big discussion of that about a year ago, and the conclusion was that it was a bad idea. Don't recall the details, but I remember I was persuaded, even though I went into the discussion as a supporter of the idea. Someone would have to hunt through the logs to find the details...
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Jun 11, 2016 02:22
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I just feel like that while Hell probably could be made more interesting, it probably shouldn't be a big priority.
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Jun 11, 2016 02:22
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PleasingFungus posted:I remember there was a big discussion of that about a year ago, and the conclusion was that it was a bad idea. Don't recall the details, but I remember I was persuaded, even though I went into the discussion as a supporter of the idea. Someone would have to hunt through the logs to find the details... The only thing I found from last year was this topic for ending hell effects when conditions are met: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=18265&p=258715 There's stuff to consider like being able to farm XP inside that branch more easily once hell effects are over, but I feel like that's a fairly minor nitpick since you'd already have to be capable of killing a hell lord (potentially), and hell effect summons themselves feed you experience by the truckload. E: If there's a major drawback I'm either not seeing it yet or it's in some other topic somewhere 
apple fucked around with this message at 02:42 on Jun 11, 2016 |
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Jun 11, 2016 02:39
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Then make the Hells stop spawning monsters when the lord dies.
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Jun 11, 2016 02:43
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Mighty Dicktron posted:I just feel like that while Hell probably could be made more interesting, it probably shouldn't be a big priority. Why? Out of all the parts of the game that need to be tweaked, I'd put Hell at the top of the list. Its easily the least fun I have with Crawl.
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Jun 11, 2016 02:46
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PleasingFungus posted:I remember there was a big discussion of that about a year ago, and the conclusion was that it was a bad idea. Don't recall the details, but I remember I was persuaded, even though I went into the discussion as a supporter of the idea. Someone would have to hunt through the logs to find the details... Yeah Grunt even coded it (%git hell-effect-end), somebody said it was uncool to give you the items in hells:$ for "free". I still disagree with this - killing the lord is nontrivial, and the hell items are more for fun than winning.
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Jun 11, 2016 03:08
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rchandra posted:Yeah Grunt even coded it (%git hell-effect-end), somebody said it was uncool to give you the items in hells:$ for "free". I still disagree with this - killing the lord is nontrivial, and the hell items are more for fun than winning. I am fundamentally confused by this definition of free.
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Jun 11, 2016 04:00
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Internet Kraken posted:Why? Out of all the parts of the game that need to be tweaked, I'd put Hell at the top of the list. Its easily the least fun I have with Crawl. Yeah, but what percentage of the player base even gets there consistently? (I'm curious about this now, I've seen some guy throwing database stats about deaths around, does it have ones for levels visited?)
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Jun 11, 2016 04:20
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SirSamVimes posted:Then make the Hells stop spawning monsters when the lord dies. Any amount of XP you'd get from killing the monsters on a hell lord level, when you are capable of killing a hell lord, is trivial XP. And you would be able to get it easily anyways, just more annoyingly because of the effects. And on most characters I'm killing half the level anyways on my way to the lord. Internet Kraken posted:Why? Out of all the parts of the game that need to be tweaked, I'd put Hell at the top of the list. Its easily the least fun I have with Crawl. tomb is still, imo, virtually unfixable without completely changing it. a whole multi-floor area which is full of high-HP enemies which spam dangerous summons, torment, and punish you on kill, interacts really really badly with the way crawl is played and just leads to a loooot of really tedious luring/waiting/stairdancing. LazyMaybe fucked around with this message at 04:26 on Jun 11, 2016 |
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Jun 11, 2016 04:23
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Yeah but the quality disparity between Hell and other parts of the game is pretty egregious. Tomb has been reworked a lot to become more palatable, I'm not sure why Hell shouldn't be. If the mandatory parts of the game had major glaring flaws I would understand focusing on them, but I can't really think of any. There's also the fact that one of the reasons people avoid extended is because people constantly talk about how bad it is. Improving it would be a good way to encourage more people to play it. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Jun 11, 2016 |
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Jun 11, 2016 04:26
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apple posted:The only thing I found from last year was this topic for ending hell effects when conditions are met: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=18265&p=258715 no meaningful design conversations occurs on tavern anyway yeah other people found the problem, that the hells kind of break with hell effects off (moreso than they are with effects on) that was the conversation that led me to halve zin's hell effect resistance, iirc
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Jun 11, 2016 05:19
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PleasingFungus posted:no meaningful design conversations occurs on tavern Yikes, that seems like a pretty mean thing to say  I don't understand how hells break without hell effects since you are essentially done when the rune is taken and the hell lord is dead; there's no meaningful benefit to sticking around other than maybe some extra loot (and like rchandra mentioned, even that is done more for fun than anything). Even something more nonsensical like mysteriously gaining cTele on that floor after killing hell lord + picking up the rune would be nice, kinda like older versions (just less flavorful I guess).
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Jun 11, 2016 05:48
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