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Cythereal posted:Because Warcraft as a franchise has been about orcs for decades, the Alliance has typically been there to get beat up by the Horde and/or the threat of the week. I see nothing wrong with this. Neither does Blizzard, as they gave Horde the goblins.
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Jun 12, 2016 21:00
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MisterBibs posted:Yeah, JW was pretty damned cool, and seeing a giant robot t-rex being ridden by a giant robot person (with a sword) was awesome. System works. like i said it wasn't. it was the worst jurassic park. it was an incredibly dumb movie.
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Jun 12, 2016 21:31
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Groovelord Neato posted:like i said it wasn't. it was the worst jurassic park. it was an incredibly dumb movie. Actually Jurassic World was awesome
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Jun 12, 2016 21:33
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ungulateman posted:nah this is pretty much "warcraft 1: what if the orcs were like they are in warcraft 3 the entire time instead" Warcraft 3 is where the Orc plot started to go downhill
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Jun 12, 2016 21:43
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Although it was WoW where it hit rock bottom when the Orcs who we were told were now good guys entered into a military alliance with a group of psychotic zombies across the ocean that were in the midst of a continent-spanning rampage and it hasn't recovered from that ever since.
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Jun 12, 2016 21:46
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The psychotic zombies are somehow still more sympathetic than the humans though.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:00
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Clarste posted:The psychotic zombies are somehow still more sympathetic than the humans though.  The psychotic zombies started erecting literal nazi death camps for the humans they conquered a couple expansions ago The good guy Orcs are still their loyal allies
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Jun 12, 2016 22:04
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I haven't been following the more recent expansions, but the basic idea behind the zombies is that they were "enslaved" by the undead army and when they finally become free and try to regain their old lives as the natural-born citizens of their kingdom, their old neighbors consider them an abomination and try to kill them to "liberate" the city for humanity. The good orcs are sympathetic to them because they know what it's like to be seen as bad guys just because of who they are. Over time they get more and more militant because a) the humans hate them even more after they allied with the orcs, and b) they don't actually have a way to reproduce without killing people so their society is doomed to collapse unless they take drastic measures. And you have to admit that being undead probably gives you a wildly different perspective on the moral value of death. Clarste fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Jun 12, 2016 |
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Jun 12, 2016 22:11
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Clarste posted:The psychotic zombies are somehow still more sympathetic than the humans though. The only sympathetic Horde race are the Tauren
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Jun 12, 2016 22:13
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I saw it yesterday for free. I expected a dumpster fire and I got one.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:14
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Clarste posted:I haven't been following the more recent expansions, but the basic idea behind the zombies is that they were "enslaved" by the undead army and when they finally become free and try to regain their old lives as the natural-born citizens of their kingdom, their old neighbors consider them an abomination and try to kill them to "liberate" the city for humanity. lol this never happened brah, and we see it not-happen even before WoW was released in Warcraft 3, when the zombies strike up an alliance with the humans and then backstab them after they got what they wanted. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6sxq0GCTp0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcdnhDv91v8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpEJZYT04O4 Macaluso posted:The only sympathetic Horde race are the Tauren The Blood Elves have some sympathy in the sense that you would be sympathetic towards an addict who was abused by his father and turned toward a life of crime. Fojar38 fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Jun 12, 2016 |
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Jun 12, 2016 22:14
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Fojar38 posted:lol this never happened brah, and we see it not-happen even before WoW was released in Warcraft 3, when the zombies strike up an alliance with the humans and then backstab them after they got what they wanted. I just watched that while you were editing your post. They make it pretty clear that Garithos is unsympathetic here, and right before he's killed he says "I want you wretched animals out of my city", which of course ignores the fact that the undead have just as much a right to the city as he does, if not more. They are literally the citizens of Lorderon, and he wants to kick them out of their own city.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:20
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Clarste posted:I just watched that while you were editing your post. They make it pretty clear that Garithos is unsympathetic here, and right before he's killed he says "I want you wretched animals out of my city", which of course ignores the fact that the undead have just as much a right to the city as he does, if not more. They are literally the citizens of Lorderon, and he wants to kick them out of their own city. I edited in additional relevant info, specifically this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6sxq0GCTp0 Sylvanas says "Yo if you help me we'll let you have your lands back" and Garithos says "Okay" She reneged on the promise in the end and never in fact intended to fulfill her end of the bargain
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Jun 12, 2016 22:21
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Sylvannas is an elf anyway. And you know elves. I'm talking about your average working class zombie, not their elf overlords.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:25
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Like if you need further proof of this the current ongoing storyline with the undead (specifically Sylvanas) is that she's going to hell when she dies and she knows it (having tried to kill herself after WotLK) so she is doing absolutely everything in her power to live forever.Clarste posted:Sylvannas is an elf anyway. And you know elves. But they do everything that the elf zombie says unquestioningly, and in a short story Blizzard recently posted they affirmed that they knew Sylvanas was going to betray and massacre the human armies and didn't give a gently caress My point is that hitching up the supposedly good Orcs to these guys has thrown a massive wrench in the "good guy Orc" narrative that the story has never recovered from, hence my "It's all downhill from here" comment. Fojar38 fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Jun 12, 2016 |
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Jun 12, 2016 22:25
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I think conflating the character Sylvanas (an elf) with the entire faction of free willed zombies (humans) is a bit weird, personally.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:27
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Clarste posted:I think conflating the character Sylvanas (an elf) with the entire faction of free willed zombies (humans) is a bit weird, personally. Sheesh, have you ever actually played this faction of free willed zombies? They basically treat Sylvanas as their god and do whatever she wants without question up to and including slaughtering half a continent of innocents and herding the survivors into death camps
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Jun 12, 2016 22:29
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Yeah, I played them. The starting areas and whatnot way back when. Mostly it's about waking up in a graveyard and realizing how hosed up everything in your country became after you died and then gradually entering a "well, we have to do this to survive" mentality as you get acclimated to worse and worse things. The neighboring humans, ie: the Scarlet Crusade, are portrayed as being even worse.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:32
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Sylvanas did nothing wrong
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Jun 12, 2016 22:32
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Pictured: the sympathetic undead (thats the aforementioned death camp) (that's a mass grave of villagers they killed they are about to raise as zombies) (thats a human village they poured chemical weapons on while it was inhabited)This is the music in the background of these locations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5_3cTF4A14
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Jun 12, 2016 22:34
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Clarste posted:Yeah, I played them. The starting areas and whatnot way back when. Mostly it's about waking up in a graveyard and realizing how hosed up everything in your country became after you died and then gradually entering a "well, we have to do this to survive" mentality as you get acclimated to worse and worse things. The neighboring humans, ie: the Scarlet Crusade, are portrayed as being even worse. Did you play in Cataclysm?
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Jun 12, 2016 22:35
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really shoulda made a starcraft movie (while ignoring all the bad retcons and bullshit from sc2).
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Jun 12, 2016 22:38
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Is this post-Cataclysm? I never really explored the world after that. I do know that they made a really big deal out of the Undead using plague weapons in Northrend, so it wouldn't surprise me if they started becoming more evil after that. I was mostly talking about the "poo poo, I'm undead, what do I do?" feeling you get in very early WoW, which is when the orcs first allied with them. I just think the idea of waking up as a monster through no fault of your own is much more sympathetic than being a poo poo-head racist like that human commander guy from WC3 (who also hates elves, for what it's worth).
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Jun 12, 2016 22:39
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lol at an mmo having an actual plotline. metzen is an insane person.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:40
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And then the death knights came along and did the free-willed undead thing right. Sylvanas and friends want to live forever. Highlord Mograine and company go where the fighting is fiercest so the living don't have to, shouldering the heaviest burdens with muscles that do not tire because they are long dead. None of them enjoy the situation they're in, and they tend to be bitterly morbid, but they're a strangely honorable, altruistic order of free-willed undead who hang out with paladins a lot.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:41
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Clarste posted:Is this post-Cataclysm? I never really explored the world after that. I do know that they made a really big deal out of the Undead using plague weapons in Northrend, so it wouldn't surprise me if they started becoming more evil after that. I was mostly talking about the "poo poo, I'm undead, what do I do?" feeling you get in very early WoW, which is when the orcs first allied with them. I just think the idea of waking up as a monster through no fault of your own is much more sympathetic than being a poo poo-head racist like that human commander guy from WC3 (who also hates elves, for what it's worth). The plot is just mostly the original Warcraft, with some of the characters from Warcraft 2, with the noble savage reinterpretation of the Orcs from Warcraft 3.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:42
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Clarste posted:Is this post-Cataclysm? I never really explored the world after that. I do know that they made a really big deal out of the Undead using plague weapons in Northrend, so it wouldn't surprise me if they started becoming more evil after that. I was mostly talking about the "poo poo, I'm undead, what do I do?" feeling you get in very early WoW, which is when the orcs first allied with them. I just think the idea of waking up as a monster through no fault of your own is much more sympathetic than being a poo poo-head racist like that human commander guy from WC3 (who also hates elves, for what it's worth). Blizzard released this big loving book of lore that more or less says that undead are jerkasses by nature rather than through any sort of trauma. Something about shadow/death magic loving up their souls.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:42
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exquisite tea posted:The plot is just mostly the original Warcraft 1, with some of the characters from Warcraft 2, with the noble savage reinterpretation of the Orcs from Warcraft 3. I wasn't asking about the movie, I was replying to the screenshots. Fojar38 posted:Blizzard released this big loving book of lore that more or less says that undead are jerkasses by nature rather than through any sort of trauma. Something about shadow/death magic loving up their souls. Ah yes, the lovely Warcraft expanded universe stuff that introduce the things everyone hates, like that Rhonin guy. I can say that I'm very glad that I've never had the slightest desire to read anything like that. Clarste fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Jun 12, 2016 |
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Jun 12, 2016 22:43
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It's better than most Blizzard stuff and more like a D&D player guide than a novel but yes, all the novels are poo poo
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Jun 12, 2016 22:45
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Noam Chomsky posted:Why the gently caress were the human parts shot and lit like a tv show? Azeroth is a synthetic world the orcs enter through a giant screen to escape their dying planet because they have been taught that "war is always the solution." Durotan is trying to leave the guild and start a family, which is frowned on by Gul'dan and his desensitized hikikomori. They claim his son as one of their own. Meanwhile, Lothar realizes the nature of his world ("Don't trust the Guardian") and watches helplessly as his son dies in a non-interactable cutscene, blocked by an impassable encounter boundary, like a fog wall in Dark Souls or the Game Cube in Reboot. In the end, the transgender Garona earns the respect of her guildmates by defeating the final boss, and she threatens Gul'dan's raid schedule by reminding them of their social commitments. When it comes to sexual politics, both Gul'dan and Medivh are active shadow Magician archetypes in conflict with Warrior-Lovers. The orcs are missing a King until Garona kills Llane, symbolically succeeding him. She becomes a King-Magician (sun) which rules over the Warrior-Lover (moon). Lothar bitterly realizes the truth about Garona when he finds her dagger, a phallus. Note that most readings will be lost on both the drive-by "hot garbage"/"dumpster fire" posters because they didn't get the Uwe Bolle-esque bomb they wanted and the unhinged fans arguing about zombie motivations in the videogames.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:45
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Yeah this movie just kind of looks like a generically bad Legendary pictures film, instead of a remarkably bad one, only because I assume they somehow got Duncan Jones to direct.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:50
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Fojar38 posted:It's better than most Blizzard stuff and more like a D&D player guide than a novel but yes, all the novels are poo poo I don't see how it could be better if it replaces the vaguely thought-provoking concept of a sympathetic zombie with a boring declaration that "zombies are evil because they are." Like, I don't care how badly they've written Sylvanas or the fact that none of the other undead characters really have character arcs at all, at least let people roleplay a reluctant monster. If anything I'd say that kind of cheap worldbuilding undermines whatever scraps of potential their setting might have had. It's the same thing I've been saying about the orcs: always-evil orcs are boring. Always-evil undead are also boring. Mix it up a bit.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:54
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I saw this movie and liked it but I'm sure that was an incorrect opinion
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Jun 12, 2016 23:01
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Okay so I went to see this today and the ticket only cost 5 bucks and that was probably all it was worth. Even as a diehard WoW fan it was boring. I had 0 feelings or investment about any of the characters, the only one I liked even a little bit was Orgrim, he was pretty cool. I also liked Gul'dan dropping the hobbled old man bit and just punching the poo poo out of Durotan. Also the name of the sheep was One Take Charlie. You go, Charlie.
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Jun 12, 2016 23:08
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Cataclysm is also when they started to push more for conflict between the Alliance and Horde, put Garrosh "Orc Hitler" Hellscream in charge of the Horde, and made the new king of the Alliance hate Orcs. So I'm not shocked that the Undead started to act more like the villains they were sold as originally at that point.
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Jun 12, 2016 23:18
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Hodgepodge posted:Cataclysm is also when they started to push more for conflict between the Alliance and Horde, put Garrosh "Orc Hitler" Hellscream in charge of the Horde, and made the new king of the Alliance hate Orcs. So I'm not shocked that the Undead started to act more like the villains they were sold as originally at that point. I thought Garrosh was orc Hitler in the Northrend expansion. He does stop the tournyment to make alliance fight his arena team.
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Jun 12, 2016 23:22
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:This thread very quickly went from mostly jaded former WoW players pre-release discussing how obviously awful this movie was, to a bunch of WoW players trying to convince everyone that it's REALLY JUST MIDDLING WITH NOTHING TO RECOMMEND IT and you should go see it before you judge! I haven't seen this but the people in this thread talking about how it sucks seem a lot more adamant about convincing everyone they're right than the people saying it was mediocre or better. From memory most of the guys saying it was ok were casually familiar with the setting, not big time WoW players. Also lol at the WoW lore thread guys charging in to continue their crusade against orcs and the rest of the horde. The evils of the player faction you didn't pick doesn't really seem relevant to this movie. I fully expected the movie to be bad but I'll see it eventually.
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Jun 12, 2016 23:22
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Clarste posted:I don't see how it could be better if it replaces the vaguely thought-provoking concept of a sympathetic zombie with a boring declaration that "zombies are evil because they are." I think they basically dropped complex interfaction relationships with a bigger cosmic scale story line and I don't think either is going to blow any minds with originality the titans stuff seems to tell a better and more creative story than the faction politics story they were telling so it's not a terrible change.
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Jun 13, 2016 00:00
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Talk about the movie, there is an entire Subforum if you want to talk about the Games.
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Jun 13, 2016 00:05
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Fojar38 posted:Warcraft 3 is where the Orc plot started to go downhill I can't agree really. Metzen was right to think "maybe having an entire race be irredeemable bloodthirsty monsters sends kind of a lovely message". It's one of the few correct thoughts he's had and the WC3 behavior of the orcs is rather inoffensive. Like you said, it's the attempts to half assedly kind of sort of not really reconcile this with their utter psychopath allies because "well these are the factions we decided upon when we developed WoW, no turning back now  " that makes everything into nonsensical mush.Similarly, I think the movie isn't in the wrong to go with the redeemable orcs angle. The problem with Warcraft is that it is constantly distracted by shiny objects and can't maintain thematic or narrative consistency for five seconds and I expect this will pan out no different.
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Jun 13, 2016 00:08
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