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pupdive posted:It's one of the optional dives for the Advanced class, meant to update (replace) the Multi-Level Dive since PADI no longer sells or makes The Wheel. Interesting and it makes sense to teach it as something that isn't just a continuation of diving on tables. I guess it just seemed a bit prescriptive to have it as an optional qualifying dive rather than as part of the instruction generally. I know I've discussed with some instructors here who would like to see our dive courses basically scrap tables and teach deco with computers from the beginning as a more realistic instruction for the type of diving most people do. So have a lesson using computers, different models and capabilities, etc. In our equivalent of OW course and then dive planning with them. Which makes sense in that the course should really reflect how people are going to dive and recreational divers almost never plan and dive off takes any more. Some of them felt you could do more intuitive understanding of the effects of deco with computers as well since it can be easier to play around with time/depth and see the effect using decent dive planning software.
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Jun 6, 2016 07:30
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MrNemo posted:Interesting and it makes sense to teach it as something that isn't just a continuation of diving on tables. I guess it just seemed a bit prescriptive to have it as an optional qualifying dive rather than as part of the instruction generally. I know I've discussed with some instructors here who would like to see our dive courses basically scrap tables and teach deco with computers from the beginning as a more realistic instruction for the type of diving most people do. While there are various simulations that help someone who already has the idea play with it, there really is no replacement for something happening 'live' so to speak. I was trying to explain to a diver today why his buddy having a computer helped him be safe in no way at all. He was "yeah yeah right right" etc. (He had a computer, but he had not bothered to RTFM so he had no idea how to tell if how much no-deco time he had left, or safety stop countdown or really anything., and he was just planning of diving on his buddies computer. This was not a class, just servicing a group of 9 tourist friends diving (me and another instructor worked the group). I was guiding and shooting stills of the group today. I had to drop down significantly below the group to get all 9 divers in the shot, and I was shooting from 30m/99ft up at a group at 16m/50 feet. Because the camera was in my right hand the whole time, the right wrist computer spent most of the dive, and most importantly most of the deep portion of the dive at about a half a meter (20 inches) higher than my left wrist computer. I am used to this resulting in some pretty wildly different deco times (same models that match the same depth reading when I test them out). But today I was able to show at one point my left wrist showing 37 mins of NDL left, and my right wrist 99 mins of NDL left (it maxes out at 99 mins). Seeing the difference on ONE DIVE on ONE DIVER really made the topic pop for him in the water, and then for everyone on the boat when he talked about it, in a way no amount of playing with simulator software could. PADI almost got rid of tables altogether on the last round of OW course updates in PADI. It was optional to use only computers, and it remains so. SDI did away with the tables as part of their core tenets of how to teach OW. At least PADI no longer requires all class dives to be done on tables (not on dive computers). That was a effing nightmare. To do the deep dive you had to teach the Wheel, make people learn how to write and use a runtime dive plan, etc, and they narc them, and make sure they could do the narc test work and still follow the runtime plan. I do not teach with tables. Basically OW students taught with tables takes one lesson from all the classwork: "Man, tables are hard." pupdive fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Jun 6, 2016 |
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Jun 6, 2016 08:45
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You're right that there's no substitute for seeing things like that in real life, I was thinking more replacing the way tables are taught (at last in my agency) with computers, so theory lesson with a practical follow up. I know old crusties who think teaching tables gives people a better reference in their head but personally I think you can get the same kind of awareness playing around with planning software. And there's a chance people will actually plan dives using the skills they learned rather than just doing it for the course and then proceeding to jump in and do what the computer says. On diving talk, have some pictures I need to get uploaded to my computer and hosted. Had some diving just off Plymouth and got some of the best blue water style vis I have ever had in the UK. Combined with fun algal bloom that would occasionally just green everything out. Interesting experience as I've never previously seen that bloom in 'pockets'.
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Jun 6, 2016 14:31
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Separating something out from the above post: Personal note: My wonderful instructor wife had her own diver, on a separate boat. That's the sound of me being sad. Got to wave at her on the surface a couple of times, and once briefly underwater, at least. I hate it when we are not working together, and I have to work with someone else. I'd like to say hate's too strong a word, but it's really not. Working with someone I trust to do the right thing, and understand the same risks at the same time, is just the difference between being able to concentrate on service versus having to constantly evaluate all things for everyone including the other instructor. Customers have more fun when the safety and evaluation stuff is not front brain all throughout the dive. People asked about becoming an instrcutor, and one thing I can say is a partner you can trust to read things right, and respond to things right, and understand made up on the fly hand signals is awesome. Without her, I don't know what I would do. On one of our dives today, with me working with some other guy, and not my wife, there was a short slack tide, and some ocean condition changed the timing of the tide swing from how it was listed on the tide chart, and the current turned 180" in about five minutes while we were dropping our team in the water. And we had a 'diverse' mix: 3 no problems who over estimated their skill but were fine (including the "failed to RTFM guy" from above), 3 who were diving newly purchased from ebay gear after a 4 year no diving layoff, 2 newly minted yesterday OW dudes, and a woman who could not simply could not move without holding onto something (drop line, guide's hand, other diver's hand.) When the boat moved 130 feet in the space of dropping two divers in the water, I wished I was with my wife, who can just read and react with me so it's no big thing. When you trust the person you are with, you can have everyone watch the boat go slinging overhead and have it be a teaching moment ("That's why you get ready on the boat, and don't take the reg out in the water, ever" and other things.) And taking the ride on the down line is fun instead of nerve wracking. pupdive fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Jun 6, 2016 |
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Jun 6, 2016 17:20
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we have Bonaire coming in about a month! Looking forward to driving all around the island and just shore diving a ton. We're going to don't couple of boat dives, but I'm pretty excited about this. We've heard a bunch about it from various people we've met on dives, will be cool to do it. You can basically pay a shop for unlimited tanks and just grab them in the morning then go do your thing. Depending on depth, we may be able to spend a ridiculous amount of time under water
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Jun 7, 2016 03:15
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jackyl posted:we have Bonaire coming in about a month! Looking forward to driving all around the island and just shore diving a ton. We're going to don't couple of boat dives, but I'm pretty excited about this. We've heard a bunch about it from various people we've met on dives, will be cool to do it. You can basically pay a shop for unlimited tanks and just grab them in the morning then go do your thing. Depending on depth, we may be able to spend a ridiculous amount of time under water We were there in February it was everything we wanted in a vacation. The sushi place that is upstairs is pretty decent, the rest of the food was mediocre. Donkeys were fun to visit but next time we will wind surf instead. White Slave was my favorite dive.
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Jun 7, 2016 12:10
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The turret on a turret first-stage regulator is supposed to point upwards, right? Which means that if you use the port on the end (the supposed "high-flow" LP port), your hose sticks straight up from the tank? I bought a used set of regulators, and he installed the hose for the main secondary regulator into the port on the end. Is this a good idea? Every example I can find online of turret primary regulators shows all of the hoses connected to the side ports.
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Jun 7, 2016 19:37
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Squashy Nipples posted:The turret on a turret first-stage regulator is supposed to point upwards, right? A picture of your setup would help, but if you don't like the configuration and you have extra LP ports, just switch the hoses around to how you like to dive. High flow ports are just LP ports for all real world applications and are labeled such for marketing purposes.
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Jun 7, 2016 21:03
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Squashy Nipples posted:The turret on a turret first-stage regulator is supposed to point upwards, right? You (probably) bought a set of reg set up as for double tanks where hose routing issues usually make people use the so-called fifth port on one (or both) first stages. Most people point the turret down on a single tank so they can look forward, and run the hoses from opposite sides. Using the so-called fifth port makes hose routing on a single tank pretty tricky since you will usually end up having two LP hoses running down the body. pupdive fucked around with this message at 12:32 on Jun 8, 2016 |
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Jun 7, 2016 22:28
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No, I was just being a dumbass. I just didn't think that "down" was an OK direction for a regulator hose, because I thought it would interfere with the tank. But I stuck it on a valve, and it's clearly setup to be used this way. Main straight down, octo on right shoulder, inflator and drysuit hoses on the left. It's an Atomic Aquatics Z series set. Bangkero posted:High flow ports are just LP ports for all real world applications and are labeled such for marketing purposes. Yeah, I figured as much. I can't imagine that making a 90 degree bend really matters much with a compressible fluid. Squashy Nipples fucked around with this message at 12:56 on Jun 8, 2016 |
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Jun 8, 2016 12:53
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If it doesn't interfere with the routing, that is the hose isn't being pinched or you're not getting the regulator pulled around awkwardly, then it's fine. Like people said those kind of first stages are usually used with twin sets where they get angled for hoses going across the back.
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Jun 8, 2016 13:32
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MrNemo posted:If it doesn't interfere with the routing, that is the hose isn't being pinched or you're not getting the regulator pulled around awkwardly, then it's fine. Like people said those kind of first stages are usually used with twin sets where they get angled for hoses going across the back. "those kind of first stages", or just "that kind of setup"? As far I as know he didn't do any two-tank diving... but he did a lot of diving. Was an instructor at a local Dive Shop. When I asked him about his hose setup he sent me a link to that GUE page on equipment. I had a tab open to the ScubaPro website (I'm shopping for a BCD), and I noticed an image that shows what I'm talking about : this woman is wearing the ScubaPro Tek setup, and her first stage is clearly pointing UP, with the Low Pressure hoses on top.  Anyway, I'm probably going to reroute the main hose so it sticks out one of the side ports.
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Jun 8, 2016 15:24
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Squashy Nipples posted:As far I as know he didn't do any two-tank diving... but he did a lot of diving. Was an instructor at a local Dive Shop. When I asked him about his hose setup he sent me a link to that GUE page on equipment. GUE is kind of built around doubles on some level, so... SP has always said their Mk5/10/15/10/25first stage was designed to point the turret up. And anyone who use one that way once changes it because it bangs the back of the head. It looks like we are talking about not just the Z series, but the non-swiveling Atomic first stage which many people hate once they use it and then anything other swiveling turret desgin. If you put two hoses on the valve knob side you cannot open your valve. A swiveling turret allows the hoses to swivel out of the way, and then fall back into place.
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Jun 8, 2016 22:10
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Actually Scubapro intended divers to use their regulators in any configuration they wanted. Back in the 70s and 80s many divers oriented their first stages sideways. Many divers who transitioned from double hoses to single hoses mounted their tanks lower and oriented the first stages upwards. I oriented my MK5 downwards. If you peruse the old catalogs you'll see a variety of ways that divers are using them. From vintagedoublehose.com: old scubapro catalogs
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Jun 9, 2016 15:50
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Jesus, just heard on the news that an instructor and student drowned in Melbourne today. Its been a poo poo week for diving in Australia, we lost another diver to a shark attack - she was a former student of two mates of mine. Stay safe, wherever in the world you are diving...
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Jun 10, 2016 10:39
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Hey folks! Short time lurker, first time poster. I'm looking for some advice. I received my PADI open water certificate last September in Bahrain where water temps were around 95F, visibility was barely the fins in front of you, and the deepest we went was 10m. I've just finished my 10th dive (ever) in the Galapagos and I'm a little out of my depth (sorry). Mainly I'm running through my air at a ridiculous rate. With a 15L tank I'm hitting 50 bar at about 30 minutes in. I'm struggling with buoyancy a little, but not so much that I'm playing with my BCD the whole time. I don't feel like I'm working too hard swimming inefficiently. A couple fellow divers have pointed out that I'm breathing faster than I should be, but I can't seem to figure out how to improve it. I feel like I'm taking slow, deep breaths the whole time. Anyone have any tips or suggestions that might help? TL;DR: How do I breathe underwater?
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Jun 11, 2016 23:05
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DaNerd posted:I don't feel like I'm working too hard swimming inefficiently. If you are moving any part of your body, you are going to need to breathe. Can you get perfectly still, and stay that way? Until you can, you will always be breathing more than you 'need' to, because the physical need to breathe is trigger by CO2 buildup, which is causes by using muscles to do work, (even if it is completely unnecessary 'work'). One reason why a dive instructor will always have a job is that in the end, there will always be a need to teach some stuff first hand. I can tell people to stop wiggling this and that, and get neutral and stay neutral, but there almost no one does without direct in water coaching because almost no one is aware of just how much they are thrashing about underwater.
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Jun 12, 2016 08:18
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If you're moving your arms or hands, you'll use more air. If you're over weighted, you'll burn more air. If your buoyancy and trim aren't good, you'll burn more air. If you're excited because you saw something loving AMAZING, you'll use through air. If your kicking is inefficient, or you don't frog kick, you'll use more air. I'm sure others can think of more possibilities, but there's a starter list.
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Jun 12, 2016 11:57
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Trivia posted:If your kicking is inefficient, or you don't frog kick, you'll use more air. Frog Kick is actually pretty inefficient as kicks go because the loading phase stops forward movement. But It's also pretty hard to do usefully (facing forward), unless you are relaxed and balanced underwater. And it is the base to a whole series of important and useful kicks, so generally people who have already solved most issues underwater are the only ones using it. It's one of many things in diving where correlation is confused with cause. Lots of things don't make you a better or more experienced diver. They just happen to correlate with more experienced divers often so they look like they cause things that they are the result of. I teach/demo three kicks in OW class (frog, dolphin, scissor) People who use scissor are usually the best on air because it's the most efficient of the three (still not as efficient as the flutter kick, but few new divers use flutter kick as anything but a way to get away with not actually being neutrally buoyant). The people who spend some time with frog kicks get better at moving their body around different ways quicker. And the dolphin kick people burn through their air faster, but have the most fun. Which is the reason for diving: to have fun. If you really want to learn to conserve air, learn to free dive.
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Jun 12, 2016 12:13
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Thanks for the pointers! I have two more dives today and two more tomorrow. I tried a bit of frog kicking, but I found flutter kicking to be easier, especially for longer movements. Today I'm going to leave my camera on the boat and focus on my buoyancy and movements.
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Jun 12, 2016 14:59
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DaNerd posted:Thanks for the pointers! I have two more dives today and two more tomorrow. I tried a bit of frog kicking, but I found flutter kicking to be easier, especially for longer movements. Today I'm going to leave my camera on the boat and focus on my buoyancy and movements. Concentrate on not moving, rather than how you move. Both not moving your body, and not moving in the water column. If when you stop, you sink, which unfortunately many, even most, divers do, then you are actually using kicks to keep from sinking instead of getting and staying neutral. (Unfortunately that's probably why you found flutter kicking easier, because frog kicking is not efficient enough to keep you from sinking against negative buoyancy.) Any motion at all should be to move your body in a desired direction, not to keep your body from moving in an undesired direction. The only time you should have your fins below your center of gravity is when you are swimming to the surface.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:36
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this is good to read. Today I focused on not moving about as much and I did much better. I made it a full 60 minutes on our second dive, but it was a shallow (12m) dive and we didn't move too much. Reading the above I realize that my buoyancy still needs work, but I think I'm making improvements. Ditching my camera was a good change, I realized today how distracting it was. I think the guides were hesitant to tell me to put it away and my dive buddy is too self-focused to be of much help. Tomorrow we're going to a more difficult area, so we'll see if I can apply all of this positively. Thanks again for all of your suggestions, they're most helpful. When I'm back in the states I'll definitely have some pictures for y'all.
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Jun 12, 2016 23:46
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Your buoyancy and air consumption will improve through experience. Anxiety in yhe first few dives is quite normal and once people relax underwater their air consumption improves dramatically. I'm taking my new argonaut drysuit for its first dive today! Arrived just in time for winter to properly kick in. Super stoked!
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Jun 13, 2016 00:05
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Is frog kick still that inefficient if you wait to 'reload' until the end of the glide phase? I do know that it's pretty poo poo for currents, or sustained speed. E: yeah, ditching the camera is a good move too. Also, when flutter kicking, kick from the hips, less from the knees (as that tends to cut through water, rather than push it). Trivia fucked around with this message at 02:09 on Jun 13, 2016 |
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Jun 13, 2016 02:07
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Trivia posted:Is frog kick still that inefficient if you wait to 'reload' until the end of the glide phase? It's not at all inefficient at all in many circumstances for the reason you mentioned. If you do not need sustained thrust, frog kicks work fine. And they are hard to do without good buoyancy, so quite often the best most relaxed divers are the ones using frog kicks because they are so dang useful directly, and have lots of easy variations that do lots of body orientation tricks. I think, for instance, someone who is interested in photo or video pretty should have the frog and its variations down because they are so useful. Facing a diver continously shooting videos pretty much requires a strong back kick in many situations, and the back, helicopter etc. all come from some variation of a frog. New divers, or divers using kicks to fix their negative buoyancy, tend to kick continuously, though, and that makes frogging inefficient, relatively, because they do load against the motion. I probably spend a good deal of a dive doing frog kicks/helicopter/back kicks/'shrimp kicks'** because I probably spend more of a dive changing what direction I am facing than I do moving forward necessarily. (including shooting video/ photos for fun/intro customers) (**I have no idea what that back kick that intentionally pops the fins back and up and the head down is called. Someone somewhere else recently called it a 'shrimp kick' and I like the name!) I realize that there are a good number of people who get decently efficient use out of their bicycle kick, and very flexible fins and split fins. I am always kind of at a loss as to how to react to this..... pupdive fucked around with this message at 10:33 on Jun 13, 2016 |
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Jun 13, 2016 03:44
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Even breathing makes you use more air. Freediving supremacy, I guess? 
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Jun 13, 2016 04:05
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Once we mention free-diving, it's time to make sure everyone has seen this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mU_IF20t2R8 It's a good example of what taking an actual free-diving class can teach. The video is not a one take shot, but still. One cameraman was also free-divers. Free Divers are amazing people. The guy who figured out how to compress air into his lungs so he could free dive with no fins to 100m 330 ft constant ballast moves me. (I forget his name at the moment). pupdive fucked around with this message at 11:59 on Jun 13, 2016 |
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Jun 13, 2016 10:37
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I'm planning a big 4.5 month trip which will have a decent amount of diving in it. My current predicament is that Sipidan and the surrounding region is considered 'High risk' by my countries travel advisory. This means that the travel insurance I'm going for won't be valid if I go there. Is this spot a must dive? I've heard nothing but great things but I will be going to Indonesia, the Philippines, Malaysia and Thailand so perhaps I will get just as good diving there?
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Jun 15, 2016 09:26
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Red_Fred posted:I'm planning a big 4.5 month trip which will have a decent amount of diving in it. My current predicament is that Sipidan and the surrounding region is considered 'High risk' by my countries travel advisory. This means that the travel insurance I'm going for won't be valid if I go there. Is this spot a must dive? I've heard nothing but great things but I will be going to Indonesia, the Philippines, Malaysia and Thailand so perhaps I will get just as good diving there? Sipadan itself is overrated (unless you really like reef sharks). I love the Mabul area in general though, although I really like macro and muck diving. Komodo is the only other spot I've been in the area, and it's better than Sipadan. I really want to go to Lembeh next.
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Jun 15, 2016 22:21
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Okay well that makes me feel better, thanks. My travel advisory is basically saying that that whole coast area from Kudat from Tawau is high risk.
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Jun 16, 2016 23:22
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I'm doing my DMT in Komodo right now! It's beautiful, and you should definitely allocate a good chunk of time to exploring the sites. I recommend doing liveaboard here. I can talk at length if you're interested. Sipadan was cool, but nothing you can't get at other places. Mabul had great muck diving. Thailand's Similans were nice, but I last dove that in '09 so things are probably different. Phillipines has some good WWII wreck diving, I'd look into that (Busuanga Island).
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Jun 17, 2016 08:07
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Glad to hear your started the DM. Are you posting updates somewhere or keeping a blog about it? Even if it is just a personal journal, I would kill for a record of what I was thinking from my personal viewpoint on things as I worked my way along to becoming an instructor.
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Jun 17, 2016 11:12
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I should've done better at posting here through mine (finished last week!  ) but I started a full-time job on top of DM training, then started volunteering at a local aquarium too. On the flipside, I'm starting grad classes in marine science this fall...so it's at least all tying together now 
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Jun 17, 2016 19:07
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I'm actually over a month in. I didn't write a journal, nor have I really taken pics (not allowed to carry a camera). Having a great time though, meeting lots of interesting people, and being on the other side of the window (so to speak) is...interesting. Two days ago I led a dive on Makassar Reef (Manta Point). This dive is either hit or miss for the mantas; sometimes you can go 45 minutes without seeing anything. The rest of the reef being dynamited also adds to the pressure, as there's little else you can see that will "save" the dive. Fortunately we saw one about 5 minutes into the dive, so that was a relief for me. After that we saw the other group with us looking at two of them circling a cleaning station. We started to move in slowly from the side, then one of them flies over on top of us and circles for 30 minutes. It was about 6 inches from my guest's heads. Easiest dive I've ever had to guide. The currents here are GREAT. Sometimes we get into a really strong one, and what a ride it is!
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Jun 18, 2016 02:58
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Red_Fred posted:Okay well that makes me feel better, thanks. My travel advisory is basically saying that that whole coast area from Kudat from Tawau is high risk. Okay based on this my girlfriend wants to do her Open Water course either in the Philippines or Malaysia. Excluding the above locations can you guys please recommend some shops? Don't mind paying a bit more for a shop that knows what they're doing. Also a bonus would be if that area has good diving for me so I can keep busy while she's on the course.
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Jun 18, 2016 10:06
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Did the BLANK today. No sweat, I'd try again timed if that were allowed.
Trivia fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Jun 21, 2016 |
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Jun 19, 2016 09:20
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Red_Fred posted:Okay based on this my girlfriend wants to do her Open Water course either in the Philippines or Malaysia. Excluding the above locations can you guys please recommend some shops? Don't mind paying a bit more for a shop that knows what they're doing. I have dived in Perhentian islands with Panorama divers, they were definitely very friendly, kit seemed good and the students were happy. I was just doing fun dives though so can't really comment on the quality of their instruction but the local manager and longer term people seemed to have their heads on so I'd, which is the only real indication I would have as staff turn over is pretty high year to year around there. Diving in Perhentian isn't amazing though but probably some of the best in peninsular Malaysia. If you're going to be over that way I'd say think about just heading to Thailand. Koh Lanta has really great diving, I went with a shop they called Kon Tiki that had some good people. I'm sure others here have more knowledgeable recommendations.
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Jun 20, 2016 21:50
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Trivia posted:Did the DOUBLE SECRET EXERCISE today. No sweat, I'd try again timed if that were allowed. As always, I'd ask that that remains kinda hidden from view so that we can use it as what it is supposed to be: a tool to measure comfort, problem solving, teamwork, and communication in an unexpected event. I have had OW students do this on the fun dive I always offer to do with them right after the final certification dive. Training matters, and when trainees do all the skills as part of regular dive, it's kind of amazing what any new diver can do. (And it's also clear to see just how hard it is for people who learn the skills stationary stuck on the bottom to do anything in real world situations).
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Jun 21, 2016 00:46
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They never really made the SUPER SECRET THING much of a secret. When I got here we had a pow wow and went over all the course requirements, and that was explicitly stated. So...iono.
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Jun 21, 2016 02:02
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Trivia posted:They never really made the SUPER SECRET THING much of a secret. When I got here we had a pow wow and went over all the course requirements, and that was explicitly stated. One point, and maybe THE point for me, of the exercise is to evaluate how someone deals with the unexpected. (And in a different teaching style, also long term, on a different level, to see if people are responsible students who actually do the reading. One of the first things a DMC gets is the IM where everything is written out explicitly.) If you have the IM around read through how that exercise is to be presented, note that an absolute bare minimum of planning is to be allowed. quote:Prior to assessment, give each buddy team a maxi- mum of 5 minutes to discuss and plan the exercise. Re- member, part of the evaluation is problem-solving ability of unforeseen problems under stress. Allowing excessive preparation reduces the stress and the effectiveness of the exercise. For the instructors who like to see how the completely unexpected is handled, we'll drop a bunch of the water work into the first day without preface, including all the watermanship exercises and problem solving exercises, skills and demos. It allows people to find their own weak points, and work on them while they are off doing their maps and watching instructors teaching. Having people walk through the skill circuit allows US to read their comfort in doing the skills, while evaluating if they look comfortable to act as role models doing them. We have to see where people are with their own skills, with demos for skills (for teaching styles that use them), and what needs work. And in the end, DMs have to be competent rescuers of others, so they have to handle every single self rescue situation without thought. And problem solving and self rescue are at the core of the double secret exercise. A well designed course, from OW to DM, will never have just one thing happening for a single purpose, and an excellent instructor will make sure that all the work side stuff happens as invisibly as possible to the customer student side. SO for me, I want the DM's first day to be all the watermanship and skills done without preface. In the ideal case, that means it's all done on day one, and the DMC can spend their time learning how to do what better what they can already do. In the less ideal case, a DMC recognize that they have weak points that need work.
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Jun 21, 2016 02:57
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