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Spoiler Alert: Even massive assholes realize it is a bad idea to have your cause associated with a massive killing spree.
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Jun 13, 2016 15:32
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Spoiler Alert: Even massive assholes realize it is a bad idea to have your cause associated with a massive killing spree. I'm trying to remember what Ralph Reed said about the abortion clinic violence in the 90s
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Jun 13, 2016 15:34
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zoux posted:https://twitter.com/ralphreed/status/742068806542086144 Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Spoiler Alert: Even massive assholes realize it is a bad idea to have your cause associated with a massive killing spree. Pretty much, I believe people like him when they stop saying we're inherently sinful less-than-humans, that's why retards think it's a good idea to mow down a bunch of us in a club.
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Jun 13, 2016 15:35
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zoux posted:I'm trying to remember what Ralph Reed said about the abortion clinic violence in the 90s 
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Jun 13, 2016 15:37
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It's been 25 years but I guess I just remembered people blaming him for it rather than him actually saying it was dope. Anyway Eric Erickson would like people to stop reminding him that he hated gay people before yesterday. https://twitter.com/ewerickson/status/742332493597134848
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Jun 13, 2016 15:44
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WampaLord posted:But they actually are all of those things, minus being Hitler. Granted, not every single Republican is a terrible bigot, but the party itself is literally evil. Ever think people saying things like that sort of works to prove my point not the opposite :/ Oh well. Nevermind. How anyone can read that and directly come to the conclusion Trump suggests Obama is a secret Muslims (instead of him meaning something else might be going on, and using a -11 quote to boot), and even flip it out is pretty amazing. But then again I've never seen US politics so polarized, an European often hears US politics has two different worlds: Democrats and GOP and what is black to one is white to another but I've never seen it this feverish whoa 
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Jun 13, 2016 15:45
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When was Trump going to start cleaning up for the election? What is last month?
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Jun 13, 2016 15:46
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty loving sure that the overall LGBT community is pretty good at recognizing violently bigoted rhetoric aimed at inciting hatred against a minority group and aren't suddenly going to flock to Trump because he hasn't been on the record for openly hating them. Yet. And the fact that the majority of people murdered in this attack were Latino and thus direct targets of Trump is also something that matters. This sort of implies that the gay community doesn't have a huge problem with misogyny and racism already. There's plenty of masc4masc assholes who have been looking for an excuse to vote red for decades.
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Jun 13, 2016 15:46
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So are we past blaming this on Islam? Cause that guy had mental health issues and this was a hate crime. I saw that his ex claims he abused her. Does he have domestic assault priors? Reading a number of conservative and religious right leaders using this to hop on the LGBT wagon is weird. I'm wondering if they will use this for that kind of pivot.
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Jun 13, 2016 15:46
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Mr Hootington posted:So are we past blaming this on Islam? Cause that guy had mental health issues and this was a hate crime. They won't. Rick Scott stood up and said Florida 'isn't about' discrimination when he and his actively fight any chance for equal rights laws and poo poo. As soon as we say 'cool so we're all on the same side? It'd be pretty cool to adopt a kid or not get fired for being gay' they'll go back to 'woah woah woah let's not invent special rights for perverts who probably wanna rape kids' like always.
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Jun 13, 2016 15:50
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Ligur posted:Ever think people saying things like that sort of works to prove my point not the opposite :/  This is Trump's whole game (and in fact, something with which the whole GOP is very practiced). He does the dogwhistle and repeats it with slight variations right up to the edge of actually saying the thing. But he rarely actually says it, the media rarely presses him further, and his spokespeople eat poo poo on talk shows later that day trying to cover up for him.Trump supporters already believe Obama is a secret Muslim communist Kenyan Weather Underground terrorist; Trump himself does not have to come out and say The Thing to whip them into a froth.
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Jun 13, 2016 15:51
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This is such a perfect turn in his career:quote:Governor Chris Christie, of New Jersey, another of Trump’s opponents early in the campaign, has transformed himself into a sort of manservant, who is constantly with Trump at events. (One Republican told me that a friend of his on the Trump campaign used Snapchat to send him a video of Christie fetching Trump’s McDonald’s order.) http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/06/20/inside-the-gop-trump-dilemma
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Jun 13, 2016 15:54
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emdash posted:This is Trump's whole game... Trump supporters already believe Obama is a secret Muslim communist Kenyan Weather Underground terrorist; Trump himself does not have to come out and say The Thing to whip them into a froth. Ok then. I can understand that angle working. Worthy of repating that yeah, your politics are polarized and crazy as gently caress 
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Jun 13, 2016 15:55
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Ligur posted:Ok then. I have relatives and in-laws that believe some selection of that and more about Obama. Sorry if it sounds far-fetched but it is completely true. Yes, American politics are rather hosed
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Jun 13, 2016 15:57
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I want Obama or Clinton to respond to this wording kerfuffle by throwing it into random speeches as a non sequitur. "It's critical that our pre-K program receive sufficient funding to support our children. Radical Islam. Pre-K is the cornerstone of our educational system..."
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Jun 13, 2016 16:01
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zoux posted:Anyway Eric Erickson would like people to stop reminding him that he hated gay people before yesterday. 2001.09.12 - Today we are all New Yorkers 2005.07.08- Today we are all British 2015.01.08 - Je suis Charlie 2015.11.14 - Today we are all Parisians 2016.06.13 -
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Jun 13, 2016 16:03
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haveblue posted:I want Obama or Clinton to respond to this wording kerfuffle by throwing it into random speeches as a non sequitur. https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/742370798850199552
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Jun 13, 2016 16:08
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This (well, suspicion that something like this would happen) is why i posted the article a page or two back about HRC saying she is "happy" to use those terms
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Jun 13, 2016 16:10
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ReidRansom posted:2001.09.12 - Today we are all New Yorkers I've seen multiple people saying some variant of "we are Orlando" "We are gay" doesn't really work as well
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Jun 13, 2016 16:19
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theflyingorc posted:I've seen multiple people saying some variant of "we are Orlando" Plus the word filter...
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Jun 13, 2016 16:22
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Ligur posted:There's actually quite a bit between approving/not-approving with gender neutral marriage (which many a conservative liken to a Christian tradition between men and women) and requiring gay people to "stay in the loving closet" and even more between actively hating them. It's far fetched to think Trump is bothered with gay people partying or marching on the street or having sex or living together orwhatver. I'm sure some of his supporters are, but that goes along with the territory. It's impossible to be a presidential canditate and not attract the more fringe elements from where you stand, be it left or right. If someone who actually does hate gay people has to vote for someone, he doesn't have much choice but... A distinction without difference. The whole spectrum of opinions on gay rights held by the Republicans party establishment, except a small fringe, is homophobic no matter how soft they are with it. It contributes to deligitimizing gay relationships and devaluing us as people. Even those who would support gay rights but vote for anti-gay politicians still contribute, even if they are just indifferent to gay people. I'm not saying that they must be treated like the enemy always, but their positions shouldn't be treated as acceptable by any supporter of gay rights. Trump's toxic masculinity is also something people who care about lgbt rights should see as a big warning flag as well. Even if Trump himself doesn't say it, idiot machismo and misogyny go hand in hand with homophobia. Beelzebufo fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Jun 13, 2016 |
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Jun 13, 2016 16:25
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One interesting thing I haven't seen anybody bring up - there's a significant difference in this situation that's a pretty big opportunity for gun control advocates to bring up - the armed guards. There were literally "good guys with a gun" on the scene and it didn't make a difference - that's a decently powerful rhetorical point to use against far right gun nuts.
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Jun 13, 2016 16:26
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zoux posted:Plus the word filter... I'm gay is filtered. I am gay isn't.
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Jun 13, 2016 16:26
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theflyingorc posted:I've seen multiple people saying some variant of "we are Orlando" No. Today I am gay. Solidarity. On a more serious note, what is actual effective gun control? I know Australia had a big gun control push a decade or more back. It worked out for them and mass shootings stopped, buy I can't recall what it is they actually did. I remember that there weren't any onerous regulations. Something along the lines of "if you want a boom stick you have to register it and pass some checks", as opposed to the US system of "I can get a gun a Craigslist, paid in cash". I will go read up on it. Deadly Ham Sandwich fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Jun 13, 2016 |
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Jun 13, 2016 16:28
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theflyingorc posted:One interesting thing I haven't seen anybody bring up - there's a significant difference in this situation that's a pretty big opportunity for gun control advocates to bring up - the armed guards. There were literally "good guys with a gun" on the scene and it didn't make a difference - that's a decently powerful rhetorical point to use against far right gun nuts. Also, the first guy killed was a "good guy with a gun" - an off-duty cop working as armed security.
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Jun 13, 2016 16:28
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Ligur posted:It's impossible to be a presidential canditate and not attract the more fringe elements from where you stand, be it left or right. Sedge and Bee posted:A distinction without difference. The whole spectrum of opinions on gay rights held by the Republicans party establishment, except a small fringe, if s homophobic no matter how soft they are with it. It contributes to deligitimizing gay relationships and devaluing us as people. Even those who would support gay rights but vote for anti-gay politicians still contribute, even if they are just indifferent to gay people. I'm not saying that they must be treated like the enemy always, but their positions shouldn't be treated as acceptable by any supporter of gay rights. Trump's toxic masculinity is also something people who care about lgbt rights should see as a big warning flag as well. Even if Trump himself doesn't say it, idiot machismo and misogyny go hand in hand with homophobia. Also, Trump doesn't  just happen to have some lunatic fringe supporters, he won the Republican primary by openly courting his party's lunatic fringe. Which is, like, 30-40% of the Republican primary voters it turns out. The GOP establishment got mad in large part because he was too obvious about it.
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Jun 13, 2016 16:31
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theflyingorc posted:One interesting thing I haven't seen anybody bring up - there's a significant difference in this situation that's a pretty big opportunity for gun control advocates to bring up - the armed guards. There were literally "good guys with a gun" on the scene and it didn't make a difference - that's a decently powerful rhetorical point to use against far right gun nuts. There hasn't been a single instance of the mythical "good guy with gun" stopping a shooting so why would that suddenly matter now? It never happens.
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Jun 13, 2016 16:32
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theflyingorc posted:I don't think that information has been discussed has said either way about his current status. The first already has exceptions big enough to drive a rider truck through. The second is the only one we're absolutist about.
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Jun 13, 2016 16:32
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Yea a whole bunch of people need to change their view of the 2nd and I'm afraid we'll get to the point where only certain people have their rights altered with respect to the 2nd instead of it applying to all.
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Jun 13, 2016 16:37
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duz posted:The first already has exceptions big enough to drive a rider truck through. The second is the only one we're absolutist about. We're not absolute on it. There are limits on what counts as "arms", and we remove the right altogether from some people. Which isn't to say there's not room to further tighten it.
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Jun 13, 2016 16:41
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duz posted:The first already has exceptions big enough to drive a rider truck through. The second is the only one we're absolutist about. No, there are a ton of weapons that are very heavily regulated in the United States, such as fully automatic weapons. Internet Kraken posted:There hasn't been a single instance of the mythical "good guy with gun" stopping a shooting so why would that suddenly matter now? It never happens. (also, I believe that there have been a handful of potential spree killings stopped by a CC person, but it's like less than 1 in 100)
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Jun 13, 2016 16:41
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That sound you hear is the balls of every gun nut in America retracting. https://twitter.com/justinjm1/status/742378431053221888
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Jun 13, 2016 16:47
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emdash posted:This (well, suspicion that something like this would happen) is why i posted the article a page or two back about HRC saying she is "happy" to use those terms Just because Trump says it doesn't give it magical powers.
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Jun 13, 2016 16:48
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theflyingorc posted:I'm not saying it's a magic bullet (or even that anything will change), but it IS a strong rhetorical point. The vast majority of spree killings haven't really had the significant "good guy with a gun" narrative directly challenged. Every time "Good Guy With A Gun" is mentioned from now on, the response should be to bring up the armed security killed at Pulse. Not to mention that FBI report that showed twice as many mass shootings were stopped by unarmed citizens as were by armed citizens. 13% to 6% if I remember correctly. Good Guy With A Gun is a loving John Wayne myth these limp-dick fuckwads daydream about because Ending Lives and Being The Hero is the only thing they can process as happiness. This violent masculine culture can be pretty loving sad really.
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Jun 13, 2016 16:52
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Just because Trump says it doesn't give it magical powers. I agree, it was just abundantly clear that it would be a thread topic so I posted it
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Jun 13, 2016 16:52
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zoux posted:That sound you hear is the balls of every gun nut in America retracting. Shooting people in a night club is a sport???? I am confused.
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Jun 13, 2016 16:53
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Did anyone actually "congrats" Trump publicly before he sent out that tweet appreciating it?
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Jun 13, 2016 16:55
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Internet Kraken posted:There hasn't been a single instance of the mythical "good guy with gun" stopping a shooting so why would that suddenly matter now? It never happens. People like to imagine themselves as some kind of super Jack Bauer, who will be able to hear a gunshot, instantly whip out their gun, stay clam in the middle of mass panic, assess the situation, locate the gunman, and headshot him with their first bullet - before he even notices their presence.
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Jun 13, 2016 16:57
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Internet Kraken posted:There hasn't been a single instance of the mythical "good guy with gun" stopping a shooting so why would that suddenly matter now? It never happens. I am sure there have been, but not that many. In the Gabby Gifford shooting, it was bystanders (one of whom had actually been shot himself) who subdued the shooter, but through physical means. In any case, the chances of being involved in a shooting go up immensely when you own a gun because, shock shock, otherwise non-lethal situations become them when both people have a gun. As a relative of mine who was robbed at gunpoint illustrated for me once "they had a gun to my chest and told me to give them my wallet and my rolex, at no point did I think 'man if I only had my own gun' -- all I could think about was 'whatever they want they're getting because it's not worth losing my life over.'"
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Jun 13, 2016 17:03
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gradenko_2000 posted:Did anyone actually "congrats" Trump publicly before he sent out that tweet appreciating it?
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Jun 13, 2016 17:03
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