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How will you be voting in the UKEU Referendum? This poll is closed. |
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| Remain - Keep Britane Strong! |
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328 | 15.40% |
| Leave - Take Are Sovreignity Back! |
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115 | 5.40% |
| Remain - But only because Brexit are crazy |
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506 | 23.76% |
| Leave - But only because the EU is terrible |
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157 | 7.37% |
| Spoiled Ballot - This whole thing is an awful idea |
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61 | 2.86% |
| I'm not going to vote |
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19 | 0.89% |
| I'm not allowed to vote |
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411 | 19.30% |
| Pissflaps |
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533 | 25.02% |
| Total: | 2130 votes | ||
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HJB posted:This boils down to the roomshare argument again. The theory is that because half a dozen of them stuff themselves into a two-bedroom flat, expenses are a fraction of what they could be. Does sound like a decent counter-argument though. The counter argument to that is that the government needs to strengthen legislation to prevent people living in terrible conditions and raise the minimum wage until it's a decent amount to live on. If they do those things and enforce them then there's no incentive to hire immigrant workers.
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Jun 13, 2016 20:42
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The Polish Plumber is down to the Tories ! When British Gas (who where a monopoly on gas work, and huge on plumbing) where privatised, one of the first things they did was to cancel the apprenticeship programme as it cost money. (They also tried to stop spending money to add the smell to gas, but that one got shouted down by people who know what there talking about). Fast forward 10 years, and as people leave or retire - we now have a massive skills gap in gas and plumbing ! As Poland had just joined (and I think France/Germany had immigration controls) - Lots of qualified Polish gas/plumbers come here - wages where Not depressed, it's just they have a better work ethic than the average Englander, so seam cheaper as they get more done. I got into the gas industry (With British Gas, as it happens) under a new-deal government scheme that aimed to re-train adults and fill the skills gap. And now, BG (and other larger companies) have restarted the apprenticeships - they pay they unbelievably lovely money (I think it's something like £4k, with travel not included) - so you can't do it unless you've got family supporting you, but at least there actually training Someone. (BG will also train ex-services personnel - they "only" charge them £18k for the
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Jun 13, 2016 20:46
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Pochoclo posted:Hi I'm a filthy immigrant from South America (but I am a EU citizen - double nationality) and I earn about £100k [...] And I live in a small shoebox flat because I'm trying to save as much as possible, too, so I'd say that "10 people crowded in a room" is both an exaggeration How un-self aware do you have to be to assume that your experiences as one of the top 10% of earners in the country is representative of all immigrants? I'm not talking about shoebox flats that cost a ludicrous amount per month, I'm talking about the kind of "property" described in https://www.gov.uk/government/news/illegal-immigrants-living-in-beds-in-sheds-arrested-in-clampdown or in https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/may/11/gangsters-on-our-doorstep
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Jun 13, 2016 20:47
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MrL_JaKiri posted:How un-self aware do you have to be to assume that your experiences as one of the top 10% of earners in the country is representative of all immigrants? You give anecdotes, I give anecdotes. That was my point.
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Jun 13, 2016 20:52
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Pochoclo posted:You give anecdotes, I give anecdotes. That was my point. The difference is that I wasn't claiming that "small flats" don't exist
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Jun 13, 2016 20:54
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MrL_JaKiri posted:The difference is that I wasn't claiming that "small flats" don't exist I wasn't claiming that immigrants living under bridges don't exist either. But to actually validate them as a widespread systematic problem you will need to give hard statistics, not just news articles of isolated occurrences.
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Jun 13, 2016 20:56
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Also you're going to have to talk me through "I earn a lot of money, I am an immigrant, therefore immigration increases the lowest levels of income" because there's absolutely no connection between the two thoughts; no-one is claiming that immigrants only take low paying jobs; to use an example from history, "the British are immigrants to Sri Lanka and are all wealthy, therefore the Tamils being shipped in can't be a problem for the local working population"
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Jun 13, 2016 20:59
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JFairfax posted:but then you'll miss a full season under Rafa its a sacrifice i'm willing to make
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Jun 13, 2016 21:00
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ReagaNOMNOMicks posted:Is there any way the referedum can be declared null? Something like low turnout, etc? Asking for a friend. Run enough stories about ballot box stuffing and sinister low-res shaky camcorder footage of people shuffled around in vans to vote at different polling stations and bags of postal votes from dead people, maybe it'll get discredited I thought your friend was an expert at this? Or has the CIA lost its touch
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Jun 13, 2016 21:01
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Another reason to remain: medication shortages The shortage has been going on for a while (apparently) but it was brought to my attention after my partner tried seven pharmacies across greater london. None of which had the very routine, very essential medication that we both need. I have no doubt that if Brexit occurs and we are under the thumb of the leave dream team that the UK will face problems like Venezuela, where even contraception is for the rich.
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Jun 13, 2016 21:08
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:Run enough stories about ballot box stuffing and sinister low-res shaky camcorder footage of people shuffled around in vans to vote at different polling stations and bags of postal votes from dead people, maybe it'll get discredited
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Jun 13, 2016 21:10
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Rolled Cabbage posted:
lol
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Jun 13, 2016 21:11
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I think you'll find that the shortage is caused by immigrants and that only Brexit can save us from this nightmare. In fact I've run the numbers, and yep, three days after Brexit we'll all be awash with cheap and plentiful medication, a 5-foot deep sea of pills covering this green and pleasant land to every corner
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Jun 13, 2016 21:12
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No we're definitely going to be stabbing each other over £15 toilet paper in ASDA
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Jun 13, 2016 21:14
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Pochoclo posted:I wasn't claiming that immigrants living under bridges don't exist either. But to actually validate them as a widespread systematic problem you will need to give hard statistics, not just news articles of isolated occurrences. https://www2.redbridge.gov.uk/cms/c...a69d&version=-1 quote:The outbuildings which families can now be found occupying quote:Information gathered by the Metropolitan Police suggests that, Borough-wide, there That's just Redbridge, and just one kind of slum housing. Assuming that the average occupancy of the Beds in Sheds they investigated was representative, that could mean that greater than 1% of the population of the borough is living in this kind of slum housing. That's a pretty big problem. Maybe you don't think so because it's not as bad as in Buenos Aires, but this ain't a race to the bottom.
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Jun 13, 2016 21:15
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Rolled Cabbage posted:Another reason to remain: medication shortages lol
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Jun 13, 2016 21:16
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MrL_JaKiri posted:https://www2.redbridge.gov.uk/cms/c...a69d&version=-1 Well, 1% strikes me as very much statistically insignificant, even disregarding my argentinian sensibilities. If it wasn't immigrants it'd probably be people from Cornwall or some other poorer county anyway, it's not a zero-sum game, the immigrants make the economy grow too. In any case, the solution is not "stop all immigration now", it's "ensure these people get a decent minimum wage".
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Jun 13, 2016 21:21
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Benjamin Arthur posted:No we're definitely going to be stabbing each other over £15 toilet paper in ASDA I'm stocking up.
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Jun 13, 2016 21:31
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OwlFancier posted:Unless the polish people are living in poland while working the jobs then they have the same expenses as anyone else living in the UK. not true if e.g. they're in the UK temporarily for a few years to earn some then go back to Poland, not supporting any family here, etc
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Jun 13, 2016 21:32
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Pochoclo posted:Well, 1% strikes me as very much statistically insignificant, even disregarding my argentinian sensibilities. That's not what statistical significance means; it's not "the effect is big", it's "the effect is real and not just down to chance". A difference of one part in a million billion can be statistically significant (for example the anomalous magnetic moment of the electron has a statistically significant value at about the "one part in a million billion" order of magnitude). Pochoclo posted:If it wasn't immigrants it'd probably be people from Cornwall or some other poorer county I don't think that this is something you can assume a priori. Pochoclo posted:anyway, it's not a zero-sum game, the immigrants make the economy grow too. Really???????
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Jun 13, 2016 21:32
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MrL_JaKiri posted:That's not what statistical significance means; it's not "the effect is big", it's "the effect is real and not just down to chance". A difference of one part in a million billion can be statistically significant (for example the anomalous magnetic moment of the electron has a statistically significant value at about the "one part in a million billion" order of magnitude). Fair enough, you are actually right on all points, you have bested me in this internet argument. Not being facetious btw.
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Jun 13, 2016 21:35
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Pissflaps posted:I'm stocking up. Parmo for dinner then
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Jun 13, 2016 21:37
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Pochoclo posted:Fair enough, you are actually right on all points, you have bested me in this internet argument. Not being facetious btw. I think this is a classic example of "disagreement on statement of point distracting from fundamental agreement"; we've both stated in different ways that the problem is a lot more fundamental than "immigrants taking the jobs", after all.
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Jun 13, 2016 21:37
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MrL_JaKiri posted:"Overseas, non-Anglophone, workers are exploited horribly" is not a racist position OwlFancier Is is a racist argument when your response to it is to blame the overseas, non anglophone workers. Because it implies that being exploited is a deficiency of the workers, rather than a deficiency of the society they are working in.
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Jun 13, 2016 21:45
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OwlFancier posted:Is is a racist argument when your response to it is to blame the overseas, non anglophone workers. Absolutely, while looking around for statistics on this I found an Express article which did just that. It was fairly horrifying to read.
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Jun 13, 2016 21:47
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MrL_JaKiri posted:How un-self aware do you have to be to assume that your experiences as one of the top 10% of earners in the country is representative of all immigrants? https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/percentile-points-from-1-to-99-for-total-income-before-and-after-tax Zephro fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Jun 13, 2016 |
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Jun 13, 2016 21:58
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Taear posted:It's a victory for straight up lies. For the first time ever. 
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Jun 13, 2016 22:14
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Zephro posted:Actually £100k puts you in the top 2%: All the x-percentile-by-income statistics are very misleading because they don't account for obscene accumulation of capital. Someone with several dozen million pounds in the bank making a passive yearly income of 100k without lifting a finger is in an entire different ballgame than someone like me. I'm still in a relatively privileged position but lol if you think I'm the top 2% of actual wealth.
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Jun 13, 2016 22:16
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https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/742460485279358976 https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/742461683138973696
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Jun 13, 2016 22:21
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Wouldn't be the first time Brits destroyed Europe
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Jun 13, 2016 22:24
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Kurtofan posted:Wouldn't be the first time Brits destroyed Europe Even as a radical leftist I think that's a bit of a tall claim, we've only assisted in its destruction at pivotal moments in history.
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Jun 13, 2016 22:26
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Zephro posted:I think Tusk has a point, actually. The Front National would love a Brexit (Marine le Pen has said so), as would the True Finns and the Peoples Party and many of the other quasi-fascist right wingers currently doing pretty well in Europe. Would you care to expand your opinions on this at all? I recently had an argument with someone claiming the rise of far right parties in Europe was a reason to leave, I'd love to have a succinct rebuttal to that.
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Jun 13, 2016 22:36
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Pochoclo posted:All the x-percentile-by-income statistics are very misleading because they don't account for obscene accumulation of capital. Someone with several dozen million pounds in the bank making a passive yearly income of 100k without lifting a finger is in an entire different ballgame than someone like me. Once you're at the point where you don't need to really keep an eye on income and spending then it doesn't really matter how much more your income grows, having a pissing contest about percentiles is a waste of time.
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Jun 13, 2016 22:39
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That's not fair, what about that couple in the South who had to consider selling their second home to send another of their kids to private school?
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Jun 13, 2016 22:47
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Guavanaut posted:That's not fair, what about that couple in the South who had to consider selling their second home to send another of their kids to private school? I remember that, it sounded awful. They could only afford two foreign holidays per year as well.
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Jun 13, 2016 22:50
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HENRY offense, punishment by: guillotine.
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Jun 13, 2016 22:55
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Tomorrow's Sun I do believe we might be hosed
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Jun 13, 2016 22:59
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namesake posted:HENRY offense, punishment by: guillotine.
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Jun 13, 2016 23:00
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"Our country has glorious history"  Be interested to see what Brexit legislation a majority remain cabinet passes.
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Jun 13, 2016 23:05
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| # ? Jun 1, 2024 17:38 |
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Looks like our only hope is the Tories loving things so horribly that Corbyn gets in and turns us into a glorious socialist utopia without the interference of the EU.
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Jun 13, 2016 23:07
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