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SonicRulez posted:...why? Why doesn't Spider-Man ever get this same nonsense? It's really a question of tone. The whole appeal of Spider-Man is that he's a normal person who has to be a superhero, and has to deal with all the trouble that entails. Now killing someone to solve conflicts...doesn't really fit into story about an everyman and his daily life. With Batman, on the other hand, you have a very unrealistic action hero whose stories veer into dark stuff. This leads to stories where it would make sense, practically and even morally, to solve conflict through killing. But that still wouldn't fit the tone, because Batman still needs to be a fundamentally friendly character, ironically enough. A Batman who kills is always going to be a frightening outcast, because he's a man dressing as a giant bat to murder people (very early Batman, DKR, BvS, etc). It's freaky. Daredevil S1 had that bit where the priest explains that Matt Murdock willfully murdering someone would forever poison the well (or whatever the metaphor war), because he can't really be chums with Foggy Nelson and Karen Page.if he's also an assassin, which is a good comparison as any. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Jun 12, 2016 |
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Jun 12, 2016 01:44
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Lurdiak posted:Spider-man also isn't this perfectly in control master planner who single-handedly holds back crime in NYC and seems to have more of a say over what happens in it than the cops. He's just a dude who helps where he can. This is a really good point. We're always sold on (and want) a Batman who's just miles and miles beyond every other hero in competence and forethought but, due to the nature of the medium, is exactly as effective as pretty much every other hero at whatever power level. We have to somehow believe that Batman letting joker or whoever keep on mass murdering is the best possible outcome, while Spider-Man fucks up kinda frequently. One of those is a lot more satisfying than the other.
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Jun 12, 2016 01:46
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I'm never, ever going to let go of the fact that Bendis once had Maria Hill blame Spider-Man for not killing Norman Osborn in the past. Like I can understand the thought process that led towards that scene existing, but I will never absolve him for it. e: Okay "absolve" is a crazy word. I mean something less crazy but can't think of it right now.
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Jun 12, 2016 02:08
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Mover posted:This is a really good point. We're always sold on (and want) a Batman who's just miles and miles beyond every other hero in competence and forethought but, due to the nature of the medium, is exactly as effective as pretty much every other hero at whatever power level. Yeah, exactly. Peter killing a villain would be a weirdo vigilante no one trusts murdering someone. Batman doing it would be "The guy the cops look up to" doing it. The idea that a guy who can figure out how to stop every superhero ever if they go rogue can't or isn't willing to math out that Joker should be put down, and also somehow isn't competent enough to keep him from killing scores of people every time he escapes, creates a really stark dissonance. He can't be a bat-god AND a bat-man. Reducing it to a personal code and weird lines like "Kill a killer and the number of killers remains the same" makes it come across as very abstract and selfish reasoning. Batman isn't unsure of what to do or guided by personal ethics or bound by the law, he's 100% sure that killing Joker would be wrong, in his infinite super-detective wisdom. BrianWilly posted:I'm never, ever going to let go of the fact that Bendis once had Maria Hill blame Spider-Man for not killing Norman Osborn in the past. Like I can understand the thought process that led towards that scene existing, but I will never absolve him for it. If anything, one could blame Peter for not outing Norman when he first learned he was the Goblin. You could argue hoping the man could be rehabilitated is what led to the deaths the Goblin caused. I remember in Peter David's run on Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-man, there was this alternate universe where Spidey was just an rear end in a top hat movie star, and it showed Uncle Ben reading a headline of Thor just beating up and unmasking Green Goblin pretty early on. But yeah, that was just Bendis being Bendis.
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Jun 12, 2016 02:20
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I mean Maria Hill was shown to be demonstrably wrong about poo poo in Bendis' comics on more than one occasion. Just because he puts words in a character's mouth doesn't mean he believes them. I highly doubt Bendis of all people thinks Peter Parker should be an unrepentant murderer.
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Jun 12, 2016 02:30
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BrianWilly posted:I'm never, ever going to let go of the fact that Bendis once had Maria Hill blame Spider-Man for not killing Norman Osborn in the past. Like I can understand the thought process that led towards that scene existing, but I will never absolve him for it. Condone?
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Jun 12, 2016 02:30
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I think it's more just "This was really dumb and its dumbness will stick with me forever."Uncle Boogeyman posted:I mean Maria Hill was shown to be demonstrably wrong about poo poo in Bendis' comics on more than one occasion. Just because he puts words in a character's mouth doesn't mean he believes them. I highly doubt Bendis of all people thinks Peter Parker should be an unrepentant murderer. BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Jun 12, 2016 |
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Jun 12, 2016 02:49
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I think it makes perfect sense coming from one of the most hardline authoritarians the MCU had going at the time. I mean for years of that run basically all of the Avengers were like "man, gently caress Maria Hill."
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Jun 12, 2016 02:58
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That's a perfectly rational thing for a number of people to say in the Marvel Universe, especially from Maria Hill.
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Jun 12, 2016 03:05
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:I think it makes perfect sense coming from one of the most hardline authoritarians the MCU had going at the time. I mean for years of that run basically all of the Avengers were like "man, gently caress Maria Hill."
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Jun 12, 2016 03:08
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I would say that at that point Norman Osborn was more well known as a murderous super villain than a CEO
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Jun 12, 2016 03:11
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I've also kinda figured that if Batman kills The Joker he has to deal with quite a bit of poo poo from his peers. How are Dick and Tim supposed to look at him? Hell, even Jason would be insufferable. All those years of him keeping them in line, but he finally does it when it's convenient for him? That's selfish. Not to mention Superman would be in Gotham in 2.4 milliseconds to give him the biggest "Why" on Earth. And sure he'd just pull his cape to his mouth, say "I'm Batman", and run off, but it would still suck.
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Jun 12, 2016 16:43
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That's why he should kill him in secret. "Hero Cop Matches Malone Kills Joker in Line of Duty - Justified Homicide Says Dept"
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Jun 12, 2016 16:53
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I'm always surprised the Gotham PD never killed the Joker "resisting arrest."
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Jun 12, 2016 20:45
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Jun 12, 2016 21:15
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Cythereal posted:I'm always surprised the Gotham PD never killed the Joker "resisting arrest." It's because the Joker is extra white.
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Jun 12, 2016 22:08
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Popeahuntis posted:http://moviepilot.com/posts/3960865...-in-wolverine-3 A bit back, but I'm here for the stupid speculation that the little girl is Layla Miller.
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Jun 13, 2016 04:02
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I haven't seen that theory, most people are saying it's a young X-23.
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Jun 13, 2016 12:15
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Dacap posted:I haven't seen that theory, most people are saying it's a young X-23. Yeah, one site found a casting call for the movie that sounds an awful lot like X-23. And there are some extra set photos of the kid actress with bruised knuckle make-up like they use on Jackman for the claws, apparently. Plus (Apocalypse) I don't think it's very likely the next X-Men movie will be a Mr. Sinister thing. If the post credits scene is to setup X-23, that makes a lot more sense.
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Jun 13, 2016 14:39
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Sinister would be a better villain for Deadpool 2 though. Oh and I only just realized the thread title was a reference to The Room.
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Jun 13, 2016 17:54
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the problem with Batman is that giant shared universes always end up filling up with contradictions if they run long enough, and Batman was created before our parents were born Marvel has a billion similar things that don't make any sense if you think about them. For starters, nobody would live in New York. edit: Be cool like me and just ignore them
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Jun 13, 2016 21:40
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Hey to get this back on topic here's a full list of changes from the Ultimate Edition: Crosspost bitches!
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Jun 13, 2016 22:34
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McCloud posted:Crosspost bitches! That sounds alarmingly better
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Jun 13, 2016 22:51
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Sounds like a film where the characters seem less sociopathic all around, that's for sure, but that just calls into question the editing practices that went into the film to begin with because those are some pretty crucial tidbits to leave out. All that cut just to leave in another dumbass media montage and hamfisted theological references?
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Jun 13, 2016 22:56
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The changes to the Bomb Plot make it sound a lot more logical. There's a reason Clark can't see the bomb. Though Not naming Jenna Malone's character is just silly, just fueling speculation and makes me think they didn't want to confirm Babs at this point.
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Jun 13, 2016 23:06
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I'm not sure why anyone would think that character is Barbara Gordon; from the preview trailer, she doesn't even look like Babs, and from the notes it doesn't sound like she does anything Babs-like. Was it just online speculation that got out of hand?
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Jun 13, 2016 23:15
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Yeah I agree that at least on paper that Lex stuff that was cut would do a lot to make both of them seem less aggressive for no reason.
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Jun 13, 2016 23:16
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Kind of weird and hosed up that Batman knows and is ok with Arkham being a lovely place to send the mentally ill.
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Jun 13, 2016 23:38
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quote:Bruce Wayne shower scene. I knew there was something missing  Kind of disappointed in how much more stuff Lex engineers, takes away from the actions of the other characters. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Jun 13, 2016 |
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Jun 13, 2016 23:43
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Yeah I really, really hate that element of any sort of Batman media. I really enjoy the idea of Arkham being just really bad because it's got the worst and craziest people ever (and an altogether too naive but well-intentioned guy who's running it - I hate it when Dr. Arkham is super corrupt over "willing to bend the rules for his patients because he's literally the only person in Gotham who actually cares about treating them") but I especially hate it when Bruce is aware of how much of a shithole it is and actively encourages that over tries to increase funding to improve it. It feels like a really gross and vindictive aspect of the Batman mythology that rings really hollow - one of my favorite notes of Batman and something that really humanizes the character is whenever he performs minor defenestration or petty theft because he needs items/a new disguise, and a subsequent panel makes specific note that he's anonymously reimbursed the cost of whatever item he stole or broke and then some. Batman works best as a guy who wants to actually Destroy Crime so he goes out of his way to eliminate it in all of its forms, down to minor crimes he commits in service of his actions as Gotham's protector, as opposed to some dude with a grudge.
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Jun 13, 2016 23:51
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That's a pretty good example of shoving too much into a movie, which then causes important stuff to end up on the cutting room floor.
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Jun 14, 2016 00:05
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This is the Batman that brands people.
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Jun 14, 2016 00:37
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Which apparently isn't what gets them killed in prison. Still... just... bizarre choices with Batman's character.
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Jun 14, 2016 00:51
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Zack, when we said the Bat-brand was an integral part of the DC universe that's not what we meant.
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Jun 14, 2016 01:11
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Lurdiak posted:Kind of weird and hosed up that Batman knows and is ok with Arkham being a lovely place to send the mentally ill. Batman is also possibly mentally ill.
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Jun 14, 2016 01:16
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CelticPredator posted:Batman is also possibly mentally ill. I'm so sick of that take on the character. One of my favorite summations of the character was in kingdom Come when Superman called him out and reminded him that Batman, at his core, is someone who doesn't want to see anyone die.
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Jun 14, 2016 01:27
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So he dresses like a bat to do violence on people, constantly putting others, including minors, at risk, fueled by the memory of his dead parents.
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Jun 14, 2016 01:37
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Calaveron posted:So he dresses like a bat to do violence on people, constantly putting others, including minors, at risk, fueled by the memory of his dead parents. Well, you've also got a science prodigy who figured the best way to use his super adhesive compound was to swing around the city with it instead of patenting it and using the proceeds to ensure his elderly aunt would always be comfortable because that's what his dead uncle would have wanted. Or a super-wealthy philanthropist who figured the best way for a persecuted minority to gain acceptance was to form a paramility organization of teenagers. And let's not forget the plethora of super-intelligent scientists who could cure cancer, end world hunger, create infinite clean energy, and rid the world of all disease, but don't because they're too busy punching people in the face. *shrug* It's comic books.
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Jun 14, 2016 02:15
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Canemacar posted:I'm so sick of that take on the character. Same, for real. That's why God gave us Moon Knight.
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Jun 14, 2016 03:31
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Toxxupation posted:Yeah I really, really hate that element of any sort of Batman media. I really enjoy the idea of Arkham being just really bad because it's got the worst and craziest people ever (and an altogether too naive but well-intentioned guy who's running it - I hate it when Dr. Arkham is super corrupt over "willing to bend the rules for his patients because he's literally the only person in Gotham who actually cares about treating them") but I especially hate it when Bruce is aware of how much of a shithole it is and actively encourages that over tries to increase funding to improve it. It feels like a really gross and vindictive aspect of the Batman mythology that rings really hollow - one of my favorite notes of Batman and something that really humanizes the character is whenever he performs minor defenestration or petty theft because he needs items/a new disguise, and a subsequent panel makes specific note that he's anonymously reimbursed the cost of whatever item he stole or broke and then some. I can't really think of any good Batman stories where he treats Arkham like a punishment except for Joker since he has no faith in his recovery ever. This Batman is a bit of a oval office. quote:There's a new scene with Jon Stewart roasting Superman gently caress, now I have to buy it.
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Jun 14, 2016 03:34
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