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sliderule posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the XBOX/360/One and PS4 just x86 PCs with artificial limitations on what software they can run and what peripherals they will accept? The line has started to blur. Xbox exclusive games will now start being sold in the Windows 10 store so there won't be much reason to buy a console soon unless you don't want to build a gaming PC. They announced Project Scorpio which is supposed to be the most powerful console ever and support VR but I'm thinking it's really just going to be a dumbed down computer for people who don't have the wherewithal to build or buy a gaming computer.
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Jun 14, 2016 20:07
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Lucid Dream posted:Sure, but just because the status quo on consoles is exclusives left and right doesn't mean that we should be happy about Oculus infecting the PC with the same garbage. I don't need to buy a EA monitor or a Razer keyboard to play certain games. You have to buy a whole new PC to play a PS4/XBOX One game, whose binaries will run on your existing x86 PC with the exception of unimplemented OS calls and libraries. I'm super pissed that Oculus is going all-in on asshattery, but I've also been pissed at consoles for the same thing for a while. How the DoJ didn't look at the XBOX and immediately file suit, I'll never understand.
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Jun 14, 2016 20:10
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sliderule posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the XBOX/360/One and PS4 just x86 PCs with artificial limitations on what software they can run and what peripherals they will accept? e: Xbox is a lot closer, though, since its OS is very close to Windows and it uses DirectX. sliderule posted:You have to buy a whole new PC to play a PS4/XBOX One game, whose binaries will run on your existing x86 PC with the exception of unimplemented OS calls and libraries. That's basically the difference between console and PC development; you can get a lot more out of the same hardware on a console because you don't have to account for the many different possible setups a PC user could have, which might or might not support things you want to use. NRVNQSR fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Jun 14, 2016 |
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Jun 14, 2016 20:11
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sliderule posted:You have to buy a whole new PC to play a PS4/XBOX One game, whose binaries will run on your existing x86 PC with the exception of unimplemented OS calls and libraries. That is exactly it though, I hate it on consoles and I don't want it on PCs. There is little/no outcry over console exclusives anymore because we've just grown to accept it. If we don't make our voices heard then the new status quo will be exclusives on PC, something that no consumer should be in favor of.
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Jun 14, 2016 20:19
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I think I am used to being okay with console exclusives due to their history. For a very long time the hardware and architecture of different consoles was extremely different. It took a fair bit of effort to release on multiple platforms. As time as gone on this has diminished, but consumers are used to it. Couple that with the fact that console exclusives are breaking down a bit. There are far less 3rd party console exclusives then their use to be and even first party titles are starting to dissolve that wall a little with MS's windows 10/xbone announcement. Contrast that to VR. In my eyes (and the eyes of many people I know), VR is a monitor. In same cases it is a monitor and controller. How technically true this is, matters less then the fact that it is the perception. We have never had software be tied to what monitor we use or what controller we use before. Why should we start now. I think they also have to contend with the issue of who the current market is. While VR will eventually make it down to more casual gamers, right now I think it is still an item targeted at more "hardcore" gamers. The minimum PC requirements are something that many more casual gamers don't have. Then you have the cost of the device itself. For that market it seems like the content lock could actually be a relatively big deal that may drive them away from the purchase. The amount of salt on both the occulus and vive reddit forums regarding the issue is pretty entertaining though.
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Jun 14, 2016 20:22
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Bhodi posted:Surprisingly with all this anger, there aren't really any there are files for the ones that don't use denuovo. all oculus exclusive releases have used denuovo since revive became a thing. edit: the licensing costs for which must be astronomical when compared to total sales. The Walrus fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Jun 14, 2016 |
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Jun 14, 2016 20:25
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for exclusives; only stuff ripped from the steam store.
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A lot more goes into a platform's architecture than just an instruction set, and consoles are still fairly loving different architecturally than the 40 year old IBM Compatible PC. It's fair to say APIs have moved a lot closer (in both directions) and that's made porting a whole lot easier, but as x86 becomes inexplicably more popular as an embedded platform it becomes no different than expecting 3DS games to run on your car's gps because "they're both ARM". Head strapped monitors can't make the same excuses
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Jun 14, 2016 20:37
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Saying this poo poo is fine because consoles do it is pretty hilarious, seeing as you can own all three major consoles for the price of one VR-capable PC, and that's before dropping another $600-$800 on your preferred headset, much less the $1400 to get both. PC gaming's higher cost of entry is supposed to be balanced out by being an open platform, it would be a different conversation if these platforms were self-contained hardware and didn't require you to umbilically attach them to an expensive space spreadsheet machine
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Jun 14, 2016 20:40
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Tom Guycot posted:Yeah, that looks like the right game, and hey even made a sequel apparently. Thanks! They also made a VR-capable game: http://unknownworlds.com/subnautica/ I've heard it is kinda motion-sickness inducing. I'm acquainted with the founder though and he's a super great guy who bases his whole design philosophy on close attention to player feedback, so they're a good developer to support.
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Jun 14, 2016 20:48
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I'd rather consoles die as well to get rid of exclusivity on their platforms too, so gently caress Oculus and gently caress anyone defending their decisions. You are ruining VR.
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Jun 14, 2016 20:49
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Mordaedil posted:I'd rather consoles die as well to get rid of exclusivity on their platforms too, so gently caress Oculus and gently caress anyone defending their decisions. You are ruining VR. VR is much larger than games, imo.
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Jun 14, 2016 20:58
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The argument that PSVR exclusives are fine because it's expected by Oculus exclusives are not fine is what gets me. Everyone is upset that Oculus is claiming they are paying smaller devs in order to get their games out in exchange for timed exclusives but no one cares that Sony grabbed up major game franchises (that clearly don't need any financial help getting a game out) because "that's what consoles do." Both companies are doing something lovely but only Oculus gets criticized for it. We know that many of the Oculus exclusives are just timed and they will eventually be on steam in a few months, are any of the games on PSVR ever coming to steam? Oculus wants to lock people into their marketplace and become synonymous with VR and that's bad. Sony wants to lock people into their marketplace and become synonymous with VR and that's somehow not bad. I understand it's different to make a game for a console than it is for a PC, but it's still bullshit if some of these bigger names don't get a port. The PC market won't survive on just indie games.
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Jun 14, 2016 20:58
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So Giant Cop just added the Vive tag back to their listing. https://steamdb.info/app/451080/history/
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Jun 14, 2016 21:01
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The drama is amusing, but Oculus has serious long term problems and they know it, which is why they're resorting to such desperate measures. Other than the 6dof tracking, the technology to build an HMD is so painfully simple that people were doing it with magnifying glass lenses and LCD panels bought off ebay. OSVR has already introduced an HMD at parity with the Rift for $400, a full $200 cheaper, and as the market grows it will become more and more attractive for other manufacturers to release their own products that compete on price. Remember when Oculus said the $600 Rift was as cheap as they could make it, that they were selling it effectively at cost? I don't think that's a lie, manufacturing and logistics have always been a weak spot for Oculus. If they do not do something, they are going to lose the market to manufacturers who can deliver substantially the same product for cheaper.
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Jun 14, 2016 21:01
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Cojawfee posted:The argument that PSVR exclusives are fine because it's expected by Oculus exclusives are not fine is what gets me. Everyone is upset that Oculus is claiming they are paying smaller devs in order to get their games out in exchange for timed exclusives but no one cares that Sony grabbed up major game franchises (that clearly don't need any financial help getting a game out) because "that's what consoles do." Both companies are doing something lovely but only Oculus gets criticized for it. We know that many of the Oculus exclusives are just timed and they will eventually be on steam in a few months, are any of the games on PSVR ever coming to steam? Oculus wants to lock people into their marketplace and become synonymous with VR and that's bad. Sony wants to lock people into their marketplace and become synonymous with VR and that's somehow not bad. I understand it's different to make a game for a console than it is for a PC, but it's still bullshit if some of these bigger names don't get a port. The PC market won't survive on just indie games. The difference here is that the majority of exclusive titles Sony's putting on their platform wouldn't have come to PC anyway, or it would at least be a while until they did. Neither has Sony targeted devs who from the very beginning were working on the Vive, openly announced their plans to release on Vive, and took preorders for the Vive release. This isn't funding games so there are more of them overall, it's paying off developers in an attempt to starve the competitor of content. I'm really looking forward to Brookhaven later this month and Raw Data this summer, but the fact is that Oculus could swoop in with their checkbook and buy out games that would've been completed with or without their help, and have been positioned from the start as being platform-agnostic. That is insanely lovely, and I'm not surprised you're the one defending it
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Jun 14, 2016 21:06
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There's a pretty big difference between Sony funding studios to make games and what Oculus is doing right now, which is wandering the countryside and trying to buy up things that look good in previews for 6 month exclusivity. They aren't contributing in any way to those games getting made, just ensuring that it won't be on Vive so they can artificially protect their install base. I sincerely doubt a lot of the games we saw yesterday for PSVR would even be getting made without Sony's direct involvement because they're from studios that traditionally make games for consoles, and many of them are IPs that Sony has owned for a long time. There's a world of difference between the two.
house of the dad fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Jun 14, 2016 |
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Jun 14, 2016 21:07
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gigawhite posted:There's a pretty big difference between Sony funding studios to make games and what Oculus is doing right now, which is wandering the countryside and trying to buy up things that look good in previews for 6 month exclusivity. They aren't contributing in any way to those games getting made, just ensuring that it won't be on Vive so they can artificially protect their install base. I sincerely doubt a lot of the games we saw yesterday for PSVR would even be getting made without Sony's direct involvement because they're from studios that traditional make games for consoles, and many of them are IPs that Sony has owned for a long time. There's a world of difference between the two. One could also say Oculus are ensuring the short term and possibly long term health of the developers creating the games by providing them some "safety" money for time exclusivity since sales are never guaranteed, no matter what platforms a piece of software is available for. Also, if you go pure Oculus exclusive, you get built in DRM (Denuvo) that hasn't been cracked yet and so your game can't be pirated either.
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Jun 14, 2016 21:11
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Cojawfee posted:The argument that PSVR exclusives are fine because it's expected by Oculus exclusives are not fine is what gets me. Nobody is happy with exclusives except stockholders, its just that most of us recognize that console exclusives aren't going anywhere so its not worth wasting our breath. On the flip side, if the PR nightmare continues for Oculus then they might walk back their policy. Or they won't, and in 5 years they'll either be shut down or their policy worked and people will have given up and recognized that PC exclusives aren't going anywhere and they'll stop wasting their breath.
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Jun 14, 2016 21:13
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The fact that you still seem unable to grasp the many differences, or the reasons why people would be upset about Oculus exclusives while grudgingly accepting PS exclusives. is impressive considering it's been spelled out for you. But here's another one for the pile: Oculus, as a company, billed themselves as the good guys for a long time. They sold themselves as the sort of company that would never do any of these things, and that's part of the reason they managed to get to this point at all - they convinced people to trust them, and then poo poo on it. Sony never tried to cast themselves in that role - they've never claimed to be anything than what they are, to my knowledge. Even if things were otherwise the same (and they aren't), Oculus is the one that mislead people, and that's going to understandable piss people off a lot more than doing a lovely thing but being upfront about it.
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Jun 14, 2016 21:14
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Poetic Justice posted:Also, if you go pure Oculus exclusive, you get built in DRM (Denuvo) that hasn't been cracked yet and so your game can't be pirated either. I would be amazed if this was true. You might be required to use Denuvo, but you're certainly not getting it for free. Even if Oculus are paying Denuvo's licensing costs there's a significant development cost to integrating that stuff.
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Jun 14, 2016 21:16
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Poetic Justice posted:One could also say Oculus are ensuring the short term and possibly long term health of the developers creating the games by providing them some "safety" money for time exclusivity since sales are never guaranteed, no matter what platforms a piece of software is available for. Also, if you go pure Oculus exclusive, you get built in DRM (Denuvo) that hasn't been cracked yet and so your game can't be pirated either. It certainly isn't a bad deal for the developers and I'm not surprised or angered that they're taking Oculus' money, but it's a pretty scummy business practice all told. They could just as easily be going the PSVR route and funding developers to make games from the ground up and building good will that way while also having a perfectly reasonable justification for exclusivity. Instead they're buying out Vive's portion of sales just so the Vive will be denied it. Oculus isn't doing this out of charity or to promote the health of VR developers.
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Jun 14, 2016 21:17
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The Serious Sam folks have straight up turned Oculus and their buckets of money down. I'll admit that wasn't completely expected, but good on them.
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Jun 14, 2016 21:21
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NRVNQSR posted:I would be amazed if this was true. You might be required to use Denuvo, but you're certainly not getting it for free. Even if Oculus are paying Denuvo's licensing costs there's a significant development cost to integrating that stuff. As far as I know, and I could be wrong-I don't really follow the piracy scene and am going off heresay, all the Oculus Studios games incorporate it. It's an assumption on my part that it would be provided by Oculus whether implemented from them or built into Home. Maybe they do force the dev's to do all the work, I suppose, there's no way to know I guess. GlyphGryph posted:The Serious Sam folks have straight up turned Oculus and their buckets of money down. I'll admit that wasn't completely expected, but good on them. posted:Ok, Mario, you’ve had fun here, now let’s get serious. Like I said above, there are two ways to see this. Oculus offering them money to give them a safety net for a timed exclusive deal, or just trying to scoop up all the games. Perhaps, and most likely, it's probably a little from column A and a little from column B. somethingawful bf fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Jun 14, 2016 |
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Jun 14, 2016 21:22
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Well this was a load of nothing.
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Jun 14, 2016 21:25
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GlyphGryph posted:The fact that you still seem unable to grasp the many differences, or the reasons why people would be upset about Oculus exclusives while grudgingly accepting PS exclusives. is impressive considering it's been spelled out for you. The fact that you still seem unable to grasp that they are doing exactly the same thing but "grudgingly accept" it from Sony because they have always been the bad guys is hilarious. Both companies are doing something lovely. They are both claiming to help bring games to market while paying for exclusivity but Sony isn't as bad because they didn't have some kid in over his head making promises he couldn't keep.
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Jun 14, 2016 21:27
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I want knifegrab back, can we trade
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Jun 14, 2016 21:29
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Cojawfee posted:Both companies are doing something lovely. If you just said this then nobody would disagree.
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Jun 14, 2016 21:29
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Lucid Dream posted:If you just said this then nobody would disagree. I've been saying it the whole time so v  v
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Jun 14, 2016 21:31
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Cojawfee posted:I've been saying it the whole time so v Yes, and did anyone disagree? Is anyone in favor of exclusives on PSVR? We accept things we can't change and fight things we can. Nobody likes exclusive content except stockholders.
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Jun 14, 2016 21:33
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Cojawfee posted:I've been saying it the whole time so v Keyword, "just".
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Jun 14, 2016 21:33
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Cojawfee posted:The fact that you still seem unable to grasp that they are doing exactly the same thing but "grudgingly accept" it from Sony because they have always been the bad guys is hilarious. Both companies are doing something lovely. They are both claiming to help bring games to market while paying for exclusivity but Sony isn't as bad because they didn't have some kid in over his head making promises he couldn't keep. You are literally Knifegrab of Oculus.
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Jun 14, 2016 21:34
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Hierophant posted:OSVR has already introduced an HMD at parity with the Rift I don't believe that for a second, it's going to be bottom-of-the-heap.
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Jun 14, 2016 21:36
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At least Knifegrab was right.
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Jun 14, 2016 21:36
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Lucid Dream posted:Yes, and did anyone disagree? Is anyone in favor of exclusives on PSVR? We accept things we can't change and fight things we can. Nobody likes exclusive content except stockholders. Look anywhere on the internet and you'll only see people upset about Oculus Exclusives. The PSVR is most likely going to be the most popular platform since it is cheaper and easier for people to get into. If PSVR has all the major franchises, that leaves nothing for PC besides the kinds of games we have now. I'm not saying this because I want to defend Oculus. I'm not going to defend Oculus, I disagree with what they are doing. I'm saying this because PSVR exclusives has a bigger chance of hurting VR than timed exclusives ever will.
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Jun 14, 2016 21:40
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bringer posted:At least Knifegrab was right. Let's be fair - Knifegrab said a lot of things, and even if a number of his conclusions turned out to be correct, that doesn't mean he, himself, was right. It just means he got lucky. He is still wrong, he just managed to go the wrong way and still end up in the right place on some things. What I'm saying is, Knifegrab was right.
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Jun 14, 2016 21:42
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It has been mentioned more than once though, that some of the PSVR Exclusives could possibly be ported to the PC at a later time. And why not? Once the game is out and sold till a sharp decline, release it for the PC for whatever headsets you choose (preferably all), then rake in another chunk of sales that hopefully offset the cost to do the porting.
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Jun 14, 2016 21:45
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What is meant by 'hurting VR', besides "I can't play all games on my HMD"? The threat to VR is a dried up ecosystem, and any measure of keeping VR devs afloat is positive.
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Jun 14, 2016 21:45
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Cojawfee posted:Look anywhere on the internet and you'll only see people upset about Oculus Exclusives. The PSVR is most likely going to be the most popular platform since it is cheaper and easier for people to get into. If PSVR has all the major franchises, that leaves nothing for PC besides the kinds of games now. I'm not saying this because I want to defend Oculus. I'm not going to defend Oculus, I disagree with what they are doing. I'm saying this because PSVR exclusives has a bigger chance of hurting VR than timed exclusives ever will. I understand your argument, but you also have to recognize that it is human nature for people to be upset about new things they don't like and not as upset about the status quo. You might as well complain about water being wet. Fooz posted:What is meant by 'hurting VR', besides "I can't play all games on my HMD"? The threat to VR is a dried up ecosystem, and any measure of keeping VR devs afloat is positive. Splitting the market, manipulating people into buying their headset based on reasons other than the quality of the headset, removing access to purchased games if you decide to buy a different headset in gen2, general anti-competitive behavior.
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Jun 14, 2016 21:48
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Fooz posted:What is meant by 'hurting VR', besides "I can't play all games on my HMD"? The threat to VR is a dried up ecosystem, and any measure of keeping VR devs afloat is positive. There's no such thing as a "VR dev", though. Game developers may or may not develop for virtual reality; they'll only do so long term if there are customers who own or are willing to consider a VR headset. It's the consumers that need to be kept happy with their investment, not the developers.
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Jun 14, 2016 21:49
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What is it about VR thread OPs and their obsession with DRM debates that go in circles? Let's get back to games and other fun VR things... Speaking of which, has anybody made a VR planetarium yet? I want to explore our galaxy from the comfort of my bed. nelson fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Jun 14, 2016 |
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Jun 14, 2016 21:52
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