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madmac posted:Kholek is a great starter because he's an impossibly powerful beast from level 1 which will help you coast a long time, also he takes the longest to unlock as a secondary. His campaign bonus isn't too hot though. Sigvalt is kind of like Azhag the slaughterer in that he's mechanically weaker than the other available lords at level 1 but really comes into his own once you do his quests. His armor in particular has such a strong regeneration effect on it that he can solo entire fortifications and leave the fight with full health. By endgame both Sigvalt and Kholek make Archaeon look poo poo in comparison.
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Jun 15, 2016 19:01
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madmac posted:Kholek is a great starter because he's an impossibly powerful beast from level 1 which will help you coast a long time, also he takes the longest to unlock as a secondary. His campaign bonus isn't too hot though. Probably gonna start with Kholek and recruit the other two later then. i'm really curious about Sigvald and his supposedly invincibility, after my experience with VC's and getting a lord+3-4 vampires and go wild beating entire armies.
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Jun 15, 2016 19:01
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Angry Lobster posted:Probably gonna start with Kholek and recruit the other two later then. i'm really curious about Sigvald and his supposedly invincibility, after my experience with VC's and getting a lord+3-4 vampires and go wild beating entire armies. He honestly makes Mannfred look tame once he gets his regeneration item. If you stack ward saves on top of that he literally cannot be killed. Doubly so if you get him a banner or item that inflicts terror. At that point the only way you can lose a fight is through horrific attrition on the enemy's side or him routing. The former requires an army specced for attrition fights (Rare. Dwarves and undead are the most likely types.) and the latter is countered by the fact that Sigvald can get a ridiculous leadership level. What's more, if you spend some time leveling up in the north before heading south you'll easily get his armor in the early game. He's also naturally much more durable than Kholek and can bypass sieges. I'd actually recommend him over Kholek if you are familiar with the Chaos early game.
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Jun 15, 2016 19:04
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So I started up a quick game as Orks just now and got a few turns in, captured a couple settlements before Thorgrim came down with a doomstack and kicked my rear end. I'm not sure what I did wrong, but I suspect I wasted too much time encircling settlements before attacking them because the tutorial told me it was a good idea, but thinking back I don't remember seeing any attrition done to the settlements I was encircling at all. Was I doing something wrong or is encircling not as useful in this as previous games?
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Jun 15, 2016 19:05
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Verranicus posted:So I started up a quick game as Orks just now and got a few turns in, captured a couple settlements before Thorgrim came down with a doomstack and kicked my rear end. I'm not sure what I did wrong, but I suspect I wasted too much time encircling settlements before attacking them because the tutorial told me it was a good idea, but thinking back I don't remember seeing any attrition done to the settlements I was encircling at all. Was I doing something wrong or is encircling not as useful in this as previous games? Waiting out a settlement takes a long time. It's best used to force lucrative peace deals and vassalizations. The more siege weapons you build and the longer you wait the more panicked the AI will get. That's about it.
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Jun 15, 2016 19:08
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Archonex posted:Waiting out a settlement takes a long time. It's best used to force lucrative peace deals and vassalizations. The more siege weapons you build and the longer you wait the more panicked the AI will get. That's about it. The attrition also lets you punch above your weight in the right circumstances. I've had situations where I had a stack siege a city garrison + defending stack they could possibly handle in an open field but not in a siege assault. So I would just wait for either the attrition to take them out or for them to meet me in the field where I could take them. Obviously this only works in situations where you can reasonably sure the enemy will not receive reinforcements but that does happen sometimes.
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Jun 15, 2016 19:12
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Archonex posted:Edit: On another topic, do the higher difficulties actually make the AI smarter? I know it gives them a lot of cheats (Even normal does this.) and penalizes you in a few ways. But if I disabled that would I get to play against a much more clever AI? I don't believe so. CA has never and probably will never be able to create actually smart AI (As shown by how it decides to build armies of all archer units).
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Jun 15, 2016 19:12
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Verranicus posted:So I started up a quick game as Orks just now and got a few turns in, captured a couple settlements before Thorgrim came down with a doomstack and kicked my rear end. I'm not sure what I did wrong, but I suspect I wasted too much time encircling settlements before attacking them because the tutorial told me it was a good idea, but thinking back I don't remember seeing any attrition done to the settlements I was encircling at all. Was I doing something wrong or is encircling not as useful in this as previous games? Orcs  is 40K. 
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Jun 15, 2016 19:14
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iGestalt posted:I don't believe so. CA has never and probably will never be able to create actually smart AI (As shown by how it decides to build armies of all archer units). It builds armies of all archer units because it has no other buildings in a settlement to recruit from. This happens more and more as the AI conquer and raze each other and don't have any decent settlements. You'll notice Chaos doesn't have poo poo tier armies when they show up around 100 because they get horde based recruitment and I think start with most of the buildings already there. Scharzhafen in my VH Dwarf game took over lots of ruins from the VC after they died and now have stacks with grave guard and multiple terrorgeists running around. The big AI factions who have decent full provinces tend to have decent stacks. All those AI fixing mods tend to do is rebalance their perferences so they buy more melee troops over ranged. This generally doesn't make them better armies though, since melee heavy armies are easier to fight for the most part (ranged units like to not cooperate with lots of fun tactics). It does make them less irritating to the majority of people though, which is why its preferred. They "cheat" because their fuckin' AI and can't make great decisions on the fly. They need crutches to participate at all. Regular RTS or 4x AI get to use structured build orders and stuff to make them competitive; here they constantly get poo poo on by everyone around them and their production areas get wrecked accordingly. Mazz fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Jun 15, 2016 |
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Jun 15, 2016 19:16
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Chomp8645 posted:The attrition also lets you punch above your weight in the right circumstances. I've had situations where I had a stack siege a city garrison + defending stack they could possibly handle in an open field but not in a siege assault. So I would just wait for either the attrition to take them out or for them to meet me in the field where I could take them. This is true too. However early on when playing as the Greenskins it's a really bad idea to dicker about waiting for sieges to end. Otherwise either another tribe or the dwarves will show up and wreck your poo poo due to eating the casualties from their early game and being ready for a real fight ahead of you. Edit: The stuff about the AI is disappointing. Though, I will say that it's really smart on the strategic map. The public order cheat it gets is completely unnecessary. It'll border it's territories with public order buildings if it can to avoid infection from hostile factions. Archonex fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Jun 15, 2016 |
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Jun 15, 2016 19:20
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Archonex posted:Edit: The stuff about the AI is disappointing. Though, I will say that it's really smart on the strategic map. The public order cheat it gets is completely unnecessary. It'll border it's territories with public order buildings if it can to avoid infection from hostile factions. Well infectious public order stuff only comes from Chaos and VC, which is kinda the point of their factions; to be dick neighbors and spread corruption. Take that away and they are just 2 more factions except without any ranged units. Empire/dwarfs having high public order means nothing to neighboring factions except they don't have to deal with rebellions and therefore can do more to participate in the grand scheme of things. I don't mean to white knight for the AI here but it's kinda annoying to me how much its derided given how this game actually works. The AI does pretty well given that it has to play by the same recruitment rules (in most cases) and building rules as the player, and has to fight multiple factions at once generally, all of which can gently caress up their production sets. The AI besides Chaos doesn't get to magic wand in full stacks, they build at their settlements exactly like you do. It's certainly not great but on higher difficulties its at least challenging for most of the early and mid game, which is saying a lot about how well it actually performs given the circumstances. This is not specifically at you Arch but to everyone in the thread: If it's really easy and you aren't playing on VH, then maybe you need to step up in difficulty. Even then, once you learn the mechanics of the game the AI is not going to compete with you once you're over the early game hump because it simply can't given the number of variables involved. The only way to make it stay competitive is to let it cheat out some of the more complex systems, as they do. Legendary pushes past this into full player disadvantage mode, which is why I don't advocate it for most people. I didn't make my tier 4 mod with the idea that it would help the AI, but after seeing them build more tier 4 buildings when they can, I think it's my favorite part of it now. Mazz fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Jun 15, 2016 |
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Jun 15, 2016 19:23
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Mazz posted:Well infectious public order stuff only comes from Chaos and VC, which is kinda the point of their factions; to be dick neighbors and spread corruption. Take that away and they are just 2 more factions except without any ranged units. It actually starts cheating pretty heavily at hard. I remember someone posted what it gets and it turns out that not only does it get a percentage bonus on literally everything from leadership, to cash, to public order (Meaning they don't have to spend money to counter/infect other provinces.) but it also penalizes the player for those same things. Given how good the AI is in some areas it really doesn't need some of those bonuses.
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Jun 15, 2016 19:34
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Archonex posted:This is true too. However early on when playing as the Greenskins it's a really bad idea to dicker about waiting for sieges to end. Otherwise either another tribe or the dwarves will show up and wreck your poo poo due to eating the casualties from their early game and being ready for a real fight ahead of you. Yeah I agree that I can think of zero circumstances where it makes sense to wait out a siege in the early game. The only time I've done it is when we are talking about mid to late game stage where you have armies fighting different factions on multiple fronts and reinforcement stacks are just not going to ahppen.
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Jun 15, 2016 19:35
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Mazz posted:Well infectious public order stuff only comes from Chaos and VC, which is kinda the point of their factions; to be dick neighbors and spread corruption. Take that away and they are just 2 more factions except without any ranged units. Don't get me wrong - I understand that it is set up this way so that the game can function and be fun. It has to be this way. CA are terrible at making AI, though. Napoleon and the whole "Inability to use troop transport" stuff was hilarious. And Rome with Slingers. Would be nice if they could find a way to make it work without giving the AI all those little advantages to support them.
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Jun 15, 2016 19:37
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Archonex posted:It actually starts cheating pretty heavily at hard. If they didn't though would it make the game better? You can play at lower difficulty for the exact same experience then, and all it means is you get to "well I won this poo poo, time to steamroll for 40 turns" at turn 60 instead of turn 90. The AI needs crutches to compete, especially as the player improves their position relative to them. It's pretty much as simple as that. If they don't get money and public order bonuses then they will have constant rebellions in their provinces from mishandled build orders (they have the same building slot limits you do and inherently worse ability to react to changing environmental factors because they're loving code), and they won't be able to field decent stacks without going bankrupt and cutting off their ability to keep fielding stacks or not face full attrition. iGestalt posted:Don't get me wrong - I understand that it is set up this way so that the game can function and be fun. It has to be this way. CA are terrible at making AI, though. Napoleon and the whole "Inability to use troop transport" stuff was hilarious. And Rome with Slingers. Would be nice if they could find a way to make it work without giving the AI all those little advantages to support them. I don't disagree there is room for improvement, especially in those glaring areas like you mentioned with full out mis-steps or bad recruitment priorities. I'm just stating that for the type of stuff actually expected of the AI in this game they tend to do better then most would. Regular RTS and 4x games are not often this complex in both the tactical and strategic layer; generally its one or the other and they can focus on which works best. On that note most 4x AI is equally or more poo poo once you figure out how they operate. Bitching that the AI cheats though is kinda annoying to me at this point though because there isn't much alternative. People can yell "code them better!" but it's not like you can wave a magic loving wand and they'll respond better to the hundreds of variables they have to account for in any given game. We're lucky they don't cheat more and are just given full stacks of high tier units past the starting builds, because it's certainly possible. Like the people who bitch about Grimgor showing up at turn 7 with a full stack: newsflash, he is coded to start with a full army and be a dick. Beat it, which is totally possible, and he'll be forced to heal for 4 turns then build a new stack of notably shittier stuff or take over one of the greenskin AI stacks that exist on the map, which is relative to who they confederated with by then. It's not magic. Mazz fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Jun 15, 2016 |
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Jun 15, 2016 19:40
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Verranicus posted:Any tips for managing the various factions economies early game? Your most basic econ building should pay for itself 3-5 turns or so after you build it. the VCs are kind of weird though. Focus on those before trade goods unless you already have trade partners. Put one in every slot of every settlement unless you need it for something else - you probably want 1-2 growth buildings a province, you'll want garrisons anywhere/everywhere eventually but it's not a huge deal if a city or two gets sacked, especially early on and especially if it's just a level one settlement and your basic money building. Upgrading them pays off eventually but it's nowhere near as profitable as building a new one. I like to make sure I build/upgrade at least one econ structure every turn or two I can early on. Just make sure you're spending down your money as much as possible, don't double up on recruitment buildings etc and don't start a second stack too early. Orcs, dwarves and VCs start with a gold mine, upgrade that. Mount Gunbad has another gold mine and a unique 1500 gold building eventually. The port of marienburg makes good money as you upgrade it as the empire. You get lump sums of gold for completing the chapter objectives for taking/sacking/razing settlements. Also make sure your army is doing something each turn. Don't encircle lovely garrisons unless you really have to - it's a bad idea and the tutorial is dumb for suggesting it. Siege places that you have to, most garrisons aren't a match for any full stack unless it's a racial capital. There's two timers when you siege a place, one for the total time and one that's a count until they take attrition. Usually that's 5-8 turns, it's a huge time commitment for a stack and you usually want to avoid it.
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Jun 15, 2016 19:40
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Full veterancy halberds in an honest steel army are ridiculous. When they're braced they can take a chaos knight charge and lose like 10 guys and destroy the Knights. I end up killing more with them with less losses than my greatswords in most battles where they're not getting shot
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Jun 15, 2016 19:51
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Gitro posted:Your most basic econ building should pay for itself 3-5 turns or so after you build it. the VCs are kind of weird though. Focus on those before trade goods unless you already have trade partners. Put one in every slot of every settlement unless you need it for something else - you probably want 1-2 growth buildings a province, you'll want garrisons anywhere/everywhere eventually but it's not a huge deal if a city or two gets sacked, especially early on and especially if it's just a level one settlement and your basic money building. Upgrading them pays off eventually but it's nowhere near as profitable as building a new one. A note about VC, their settlement chain is actually the highest source of income for them outside of gold mines IIRC. You should focus on raising those up before anything else if given the choice.
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Jun 15, 2016 20:02
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iGestalt posted:I don't believe so. CA has never and probably will never be able to create actually smart AI (As shown by how it decides to build armies of all archer units). I don't think anyone has an AI that could play TW intelligently with the resources on your average processor. It's not an easy problem. CA has made great strides over the last decades tbh. AI is the bug bear of the strategy genre because it's hard to do without eating all your processor cycles and harder if you limit it to low 15% of cycles. "Good AI" typically is bad AI with a lot of tricks and hard-coding in place to make the player think it's good. Big companies like Bungie and Valve that can afford months of testing have noticed that stuff like forcing the player to watch the AI do stuff increases their perception of its intelligence without touching AI code at all. Ultimately it's about tricking humans intuitive forgetting they're playing against a machine, not about making the machine smarter.  It's an interesting field.
Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Jun 15, 2016 |
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Jun 15, 2016 20:29
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Gitro posted:Your most basic econ building should pay for itself 3-5 turns or so after you build it. the VCs are kind of weird though. Focus on those before trade goods unless you already have trade partners. Put one in every slot of every settlement unless you need it for something else - you probably want 1-2 growth buildings a province, you'll want garrisons anywhere/everywhere eventually but it's not a huge deal if a city or two gets sacked, especially early on and especially if it's just a level one settlement and your basic money building. Upgrading them pays off eventually but it's nowhere near as profitable as building a new one. Ok, thanks. Yeah, the tutorial was like "it might be wise to encircle the enemy.. ;D" so I did for like 5+ turns and nothing happened and I could have probably just taken it with minimal losses.
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Jun 15, 2016 20:31
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terrorist ambulance posted:Full veterancy halberds in an honest steel army are ridiculous. When they're braced they can take a chaos knight charge and lose like 10 guys and destroy the Knights. I end up killing more with them with less losses than my greatswords in most battles where they're not getting shot Can confirm, I do not like halberdiers as either VC or Chaos.
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Jun 15, 2016 20:34
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Mazz posted:A note about VC, their settlement chain is actually the highest source of income for them outside of gold mines IIRC. You should focus on raising those up before anything else if given the choice. Thanks, as much I like them VCs are one of my least played factions and I don't know how to econ as them (I meant to say that I swear). Also your tier 4 mod is cool and good. Played game until 4am, game good. Vikings keep running around my provinces, moussilon has actually done really well for itself and I don't have the manpower to properly invade them. The empire is mostly peaceful except everyone hates hochland. Poor brettonia just has couronne. Sorry buds, that's what you get for pointlessely chasing orcs through my lands. VC gone. Fighting the undead owns, over 100 kills on swordsmen is great. The rocket artillery probably isn't worth it over another great cannon but they're cool as hell so gently caress that. I can finally recruit the king nerd but I'll wait until I've finished upgrading the colleges so I can get a sweet nerd coven going. 70 and I still can't recruit reiksguard. Is it possible to win before the chaos invasion? It looks like it keeps those conditions checked since I guess the faction isn't actually on the map.
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Jun 15, 2016 20:37
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What's the best way to deal with light cavalry spam? In my empire campaign (now finished, thank god) the northern raiders constantly sent stacks with six plus units of throwing axe cavalry at me, and it is such a pain. I can't sent knights to charge them because they run away and have a second unit shoot my knights in the back. I can't ignore them or they chew up my artillery. I eventually dealt by just sticking sacrificial spearman with shields on the back and flank of my army and ignoring their horrible casualties while crushing the line and then slowly chasing the cavalry until they gave up, but there has to be a better way. Pistoliers, but better used? Even later on I just remembered to bring gunners or crossbows who dealt well with light missile cavalry, but that was usually easier because by that point there were only one or two units in each stack. (And I could justify camping the cavalry by my back line to deal with chaos Knights or whatever strong cavalry they tried to flank with)
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Jun 15, 2016 20:43
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Arcturas posted:What's the best way to deal with light cavalry spam? In my empire campaign (now finished, thank god) the northern raiders constantly sent stacks with six plus units of throwing axe cavalry at me, and it is such a pain. I can't sent knights to charge them because they run away and have a second unit shoot my knights in the back. I can't ignore them or they chew up my artillery. Autoresolve
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Jun 15, 2016 20:48
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Arcturas posted:What's the best way to deal with light cavalry spam? In my empire campaign (now finished, thank god) the northern raiders constantly sent stacks with six plus units of throwing axe cavalry at me, and it is such a pain. I can't sent knights to charge them because they run away and have a second unit shoot my knights in the back. I can't ignore them or they chew up my artillery. Never, ever, ever manually fight against stacks of missile cavalry.
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Jun 15, 2016 20:50
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You beat light missile cavalry stacks by standing your ground and shooting them to death, it's not that difficult tbh. If you have an excellent fast melee unit like Chaos Hounds or any flying unit you can also use those to destroy them. Missile Cav only wins by tricking you into chasing it around the field and splitting your troops up for no reason.
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Jun 15, 2016 20:52
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Arcturas posted:What's the best way to deal with light cavalry spam? All details past this point are irrelevant. The answer is "shoot them". e: "Auto-resolve" is also a good answer
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Jun 15, 2016 20:54
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madmac posted:You beat light missile cavalry stacks by standing your ground and shooting them to death, it's not that difficult tbh. If you have an excellent fast melee unit like Chaos Hounds or any flying unit you can also use those to destroy them. Missile Cav only wins by tricking you into chasing it around the field and splitting your troops up for no reason. If you're VCs, you do it by sending flyers after them.
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Jun 15, 2016 20:56
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Mazz (or anyone), no idea if this is way outside mod range, but the AI unit compositions often suck, because the rules they have to play by. What if it was a more blatant tactical cheat, they can recruit any unit from a tier you, the player, has access to. I.e., of you have a level 4 city, the AI can build any tier 4 unit, regardless of the buildings it has. I know other non tw games have tried this, and while cheating, it puts the player at a constant disadvantage, but for units fielded, not state boosting. It also would allow for some more epic late game battles where the AI can field poo poo. Side note, if you pause in battle you're giving yourself a give boost over the AI. It's 100% unfair to judge the AI if you pause.
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Jun 15, 2016 21:01
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1st_Panzer_Div. posted:Mazz (or anyone), no idea if this is way outside mod range, but the AI unit compositions often suck, because the rules they have to play by. What if it was a more blatant tactical cheat, they can recruit any unit from a tier you, the player, has access to. I.e., of you have a level 4 city, the AI can build any tier 4 unit, regardless of the buildings it has. AFAIK it would be really hard and probably be script based if it was possible at all, so it's extremely unlikely. Recruitment is also explictly tied to the buildings themselves, tier is kinda irrelevant. Each factions buildings are different so you can't just try to draw lines between them either.
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Jun 15, 2016 21:05
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Mazz posted:AFAIK it would be really hard and probably be script based if it was possible at all, so it's extremely unlikely. Recruitment is also explictly tied to the buildings themselves, tier is kinda irrelevant. Each factions buildings are different so you can't just try to draw lines between them either. Hmm, could you add units to buildings then? It'd be a pain, you'd have to make a new mod so it adds to just the AI buildings and not player ones. Or only boost the minor factions, which all are seperate. If that even works. Ah well, game is still plenty hard on vh.
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Jun 15, 2016 21:17
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No because the buildings are based on factions, and the player and AI all fall under the same rules. You'd have to make a different mod for each faction so that the factions you aren't playing just get access to their all units through the settlement chain. It might work but it would be weird and probably ungainly.
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Jun 15, 2016 21:21
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What would stop a player from just using their starting stack to win the game then? Sure, you can only build swordsmen and Spears, but you have a cannon and a reiksguard.
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Jun 15, 2016 21:21
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I think an AI faction that got hosed up enough to only be able to build archers is probably not gonna be much of a threat anyway, so it's not that big an issue. Making it valuable to raze their recruitment settlements might even make the game more interesting.
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Jun 15, 2016 21:31
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Kinda finding myself wanting to start another Dwarf campaign instead of finishing Chaos. Dwarfs are tons of fun.
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Jun 15, 2016 21:34
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Archonex posted:He honestly makes Mannfred look tame once he gets his regeneration item. If you stack ward saves on top of that he literally cannot be killed. Doubly so if you get him a banner or item that inflicts terror. I mean, you're right about Sigvald being super tough but in my experience Kholek is just as tough if you stack ward due to his + ward skill. He also has a huge starting HP pool which he can get an extra +30% in skills. I also prefer Kholek for my main army since he can just knock down doors by himself, and his built in fear and and terror along with his sweeping strikes make him much better at clearing out fodder. I think they're both great, but I'd still say Kholek is the better starter since he can wipe out whole units in a few hits and Sigvald is trivial to unlock. The only real negative I have about Kholek is that his campaign wide bonuses are pretty lame.
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Jun 15, 2016 21:44
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Anyone know how to unlock the Bonegrinder Giant from the Empire of Sigmar mod? I'm guessing a special building somewhere?
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Jun 15, 2016 21:51
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Deified Data posted:Kinda finding myself wanting to start another Dwarf campaign instead of finishing Chaos. Dwarfs are tons of fun. one of the things I still want to do with the faction unlocker is start as the far northern dwarves and fight marauders and chaos
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Jun 15, 2016 22:01
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Third World Reggin posted:one of the things I still want to do with the faction unlocker is start as the far northern dwarves and fight marauders and chaos It would make quite a bit of sense if you started with Ungrim.
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Jun 15, 2016 22:04
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What's a top notch end game chaos stack? I'm 100+ turns in at the moment, chose Archaon and I think have been moving way too slowly. However I've burned most of Kislev and Nordland and am hanging around in the Empire at the moment. Just defeated birdman and haven't got any of my quest items. I went for the Slayer of Kings but was up against like 2.5 high end chaos stacks. How are you meant to win that? To be fair I haven't tried it since like turn 60 or something so maybe it'l be cake walk now. I've found armored trolls to be pretty squishy so currently am basically just rocking chosen + some chaos knights (haven't unlocked giants, spawn or hellcannons). One thing I've found disappointing in all my campaigns so far is that auto resolve absolutely butchers Archaons invasion (at least as Dwarves and Empire). Just bring in a 2nd stack while hes encircled a town and attack him, something like 75%+ favoured. Repeat for Kholek and the rest. I intentionally fight the battles since they're basically the peak of the campaign, but it just feels underwhelming after struggling all early game. jpparker55 fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Jun 15, 2016 |
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Jun 15, 2016 22:06
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