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Araganzar posted:There are just too many that wreck your game at any point in your playthrough. Slow movement, now you can't run from anything... Nit: you haven't been able to get fast or slow movement as random muts since 2013, for that exact reason.
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Jun 19, 2016 17:43
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Is there - that you know of anyway - a plan to look at the mutation system? iirc (and i could be wrong!) there was talk of addressing malmumte or something in the aftermath of the rMut change?
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Jun 19, 2016 17:44
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not afaik. this thread is basically the one place on the internet that is extremely angry about malmut, all the time. my basic feeling is that individual muts shouldn't be enough to make or break a character; that's why i weakened wild/subdued magic a few months ago. possibly some of the Power Malmuts, like berserkitis and blurry vision, need to be looked at. i'm not convinced that there's a broader problem, though. like, for one example, Darox posted:If you're playing a blaster mutaters are easier to kill before they can get you, but man I wouldn't want to play a melee character that can be mutated in extended now. There are zero options for counter play. One point I had a character go down some stairs in slime and meet a shining eye one tile away. In the time it took to step over and swat it with my Exe axe it mutated me three times. That kind of thing is bullshit. no offense to good poster darox, who posts many fine words, but combining the concepts of 'zero options for counter play' and 'i walked straight at a shining eye over open ground and was surprised when i got repeatedly malmutated' is not super persuasive.
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Jun 19, 2016 17:56
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PleasingFungus posted:my basic feeling is that individual muts shouldn't be enough to make or break a character; that's why i weakened wild/subdued magic a few months ago. possibly some of the Power Malmuts, like berserkitis and blurry vision, need to be looked at. i'm not convinced that there's a broader problem, though. like, for one example, Yeah man I was remiss in not saying that mutations are a big part of the distinctive fun of crawl. Didn't know you'd already been on the job. Bear in mind I just almost lost a stabber who found a cloak of invis on D1 to WHAT THE HELL THESE BEES HAVE AXES. And then DID lose him to WHO THE gently caress TURNED ELF ARCHERS INTO HAWKEYE. Anyway keep at it!
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Jun 19, 2016 18:01
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Yea the only thing about malmut is blurry vision/berzerkitis/teleportitis need taken down a notch or two. When a malmut monster gets you in its los, it should have an 80% chance of hitting you with a weaker mut (frailty, dopey, cold vuln, fire, vuln) and a 20% chance of hitting you with a stronger mut (the aforementioned deadly 3). Also, up the rate of scrolls of fog for those of us who can't evoke fog. Shining eyes are about 100x deadlier when you save scrolls of fog for them. Fog is the ultimate malmut defence.
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Jun 19, 2016 18:13
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First win in a while. Hep is cool. I felt pretty under-powered after clearing Vaults and Slime, but trawling Pan got me some alright stuff, and it was mostly smooth from then on out. Still nearly died too many times, but that's more to my play style with melee characters than anything else. code:
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Jun 19, 2016 18:42
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As I understand it, the main reason for not doing anything about malmute (besides "mysteriously only people at SA find it a problem") is that it's supposed to be a bad thing and have a chance to gently caress your character. What if instead of bringing rMut back as an item property, you bring it back as a Ru like sacrifice available in a vault somewhere late in the game? Maybe it gives you rMut as a mutation itself, or as a specific piece of gear with no redeeming qualities beyond rMut. But to even get there, it makes you sacrifice something powerful to get in, like a Trove would, but with Ru scale consequences. Would you give up your ability to use evokables? Accept stasis? A dramatic drop in your stealth so you've got no malmute, but bigger fights? A magical shackle that reduces all your skills by some amount (or increases the cost to level them by some amount)? I'm just spitballing ideas. If a decent number of people (even if they all appear to be confined to SA) think that the current mutation system is crap, there are odds that it might be at least a bit crap. While that doesn't mean the whole thing should suddenly change for their whims, offering counterplay at a price would seem to be a good "separate but equal" solution. People who think malmutate is fine don't have to give up anything, they can roll on with the system as it is. People who find it tedious, unfun garbage have an "in case of malmute, break glass" option.
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Jun 19, 2016 19:10
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Maybe only people on SA think it's crap, but also I don't think I've ever seen anyone who really liked it a lot or anything.
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Jun 19, 2016 19:15
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PleasingFungus posted:no offense to good poster darox, who posts many fine words, but combining the concepts of 'zero options for counter play' and 'i walked straight at a shining eye over open ground and was surprised when i got repeatedly malmutated' is not super persuasive. To be fair the situation certainly sounds like you'd only mitigate the zaps at best. It may seem like you have a lot of options, but few options on a non-blaster caster outright get rid of the problem safely and those options are generally too rare to use like that, sometimes you reluctantly play Russian mutation roulette. That's the counter-play, pretty much. C7ty1 posted:Is there - that you know of anyway - a plan to look at the mutation system? iirc (and i could be wrong!) there was talk of addressing malmumte or something in the aftermath of the rMut change? PleasingFungus posted:not afaik. It probably came from this tavern thread: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?p=251004 Lasty posted:For what it's worth, these changes are the first steps in a large suite of changes that will no doubt include changes to malmutation in general. rMut amulets were a band-aid that covered up the problems with the malmutation minigame, and introduced tedium as a way of dealing with the alternate tedium of making sure you handle each malmutator individually. Removing the rMut amulet means bringing those issues to the forefront. Currently I'm leaning towards dealing with those issues by making malmutators apply temporary mutations, though the overall situation is still something the dev team is discussing. Maybe the discussion happened and quietly fizzled out 
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Jun 19, 2016 19:24
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IronicDongz posted:Maybe only people on SA think it's crap, but also I don't think I've ever seen anyone who really liked it a lot or anything. I honestly don't get why I seem to be the only person that hates hell effects giving glow. You literally can't do anything about it but chug cancellation! Its just a spiteful middle finger! Why does it exist??? 
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Jun 19, 2016 19:30
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I mean, it just seems to happen so rarely. I seriously can only remember a few times it ever happened to me in all my 15 rune games, and maybe only one or two times it resulted in mutation.
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Jun 19, 2016 19:35
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The mutation thing is so obviously bad that I have no idea why that conversation hasn't happened yet. You just can't deal with every individual mutator, especially OOFs, without getting mutated. Extended (and Zot!) is basically awful for anyone who doesn't have lich form now. What was gained by removing rMut, exactly? People wearing a few different amulets? Is that really worth it?
LogicNinja fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Jun 19, 2016 |
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Jun 19, 2016 19:50
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Perhaps malmutate could have a cool down of a certain number of turns after firing? At least melee fighters would then have a chance to despatch them suffering only a handful of mutations instead of an entire page full.
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Jun 19, 2016 20:38
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Oh holy poo poo toxic radiance doesn't poison yourself anymore?? I might be more interested in playing venom mages now
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Jun 19, 2016 20:40
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 Thanks whoever suggested to just eat the purp, the game's way easier now
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Jun 19, 2016 20:49
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Austen Tassletine posted:Perhaps malmutate could have a cool down of a certain number of turns after firing? At least melee fighters would then have a chance to despatch them suffering only a handful of mutations instead of an entire page full. Yeah, adding some kind of buffer that lets you react to malmutate sounds interesting. My idea was similar in that regard: turning malmutate into a status effect (not stackable) that can be dispelled by killing the initiator, but if you take too long it "solidifies" into permanent mutations. Stuff like this is more likely to get shot down though, historically anything that makes it beneficial to track additional info from a specific monster is argued to not scale well under Crawl's system (at the very least you'd have to press 'X' and examine a monster for extra info between actions).
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Jun 19, 2016 20:55
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The only real change to mutation in general I want is for Pakellas to override MP-powered wands. Shits annoying.
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Jun 19, 2016 21:21
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IronicDongz posted:Oh holy poo poo they lowered its damage some to balance it but yeah it doesn't self-poison anymore the main reason i hate the mutation changes is because it makes it pointless to ever try and get a good mutation set because you are, inevitably, going to get a mut bad enough to make you cmut from hell effects or cacodemons or w/e. it's detrimental to my enjoyment of the game, though not critically so. see also: jiyva's ever-shifting muts and them not being enjoyable at all
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Jun 19, 2016 22:41
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IronicDongz posted:I mean, it just seems to happen so rarely. I seriously can only remember a few times it ever happened to me in all my 15 rune games, and maybe only one or two times it resulted in mutation. I guess I'm just cursed because I always get glow from hell. Last game it happened 4 times, and once it even caused a mutagenic explosion before I could even chug cancellation. I didn't even know that was possible! On a less whiny note, violent unraveling is a cool new spell. Purging buffs on enemies is quite useful when you remember to use it.
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Jun 20, 2016 00:32
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Turns out felid can be fun once you get dragon form+statue form online, especially as a mak worshipper
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Jun 20, 2016 03:16
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IronicDongz posted:Turns out felid can be fun once you get dragon form+statue form online, especially as a mak worshipper because that's so easy (i'm just bitter i haven't had a good run in months)
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Jun 20, 2016 04:39
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Can you all believe that, early this patch, people actually thought Usk was underpowered? Heh. Usk is immediately my favorite god, beating Gozag, the previous title holder, by a large margin. edit: It would help if I could properly abbreviate my favorite god's name. Emmideer fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Jun 20, 2016 |
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Jun 20, 2016 04:49
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Uka is even easier than Oka. Play a mino or orc, slap on an axe, and watch the fun. It's stupid. Speaking of overpowered new dieties, anyone want to drop some knowledge bombs about Hepliaklqana's powers? Are the slow (Transference) and super saiyan (Idealise) powers worth using? How often can you use them? I mean I've been doing just fine letting my ancestor confuse and paralyze everything but I'm curious about uses of Transference like sending your pet away then swapping with it.
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Jun 20, 2016 05:02
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Araganzar posted:Uka is even easier than Oka. Play a mino or orc, slap on an axe, and watch the fun. It's stupid. I recently won a KoHu of Hep. I went hexer with metabolic englaciation to help slow all the chaff. I never used transference, but I did use idealize quite liberally. It seems like Oka's heroism for your ancestor with some healing thrown in. I liked it, having a mostly permanent ally, and the distraction stabs it allowed me helped out quite a bit.
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Jun 20, 2016 05:31
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I never have to play a felid again! Granted, if every time I played a felid I was lucky enough to find an early potion of experience(and three wands of healing over the course of the game), I wouldn't be so opposed to playing them. Statue and dragon form are fun, and statue form not affecting stealth is great with Felid's unarmed stabbing. Invis+statue tabbing thru draconian packs 24/7   only octopode left
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Jun 20, 2016 06:11
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Araganzar posted:Uka is even easier than Oka. Play a mino or orc, slap on an axe, and watch the fun. It's stupid. The swap power is really really strong: for getting away, for getting your ancestor to better killing places, and for getting an annoying enemy next to you. I'd use Swap for those even without the slow. Idealize I use when ey's getting injured and I don't want to continue the fight alone. You can't use that all the time, but I don't think it's like say Qaz/Oka where you're super concerned about getting below 5*. Just use the powers when you want them.
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Jun 20, 2016 06:31
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At least until you go for greatestplayer! 
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Jun 20, 2016 07:14
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I fully agree that contam is the worst hell effect and I hate every time it happens.PleasingFungus posted:no offense to good poster darox, who posts many fine words, but combining the concepts of 'zero options for counter play' and 'i walked straight at a shining eye over open ground and was surprised when i got repeatedly malmutated' is not super persuasive. It was one tile. The only way I could possibly have killed it faster is by starting one tile closer or throwing javelins. In which case I would only get 2 mutations I guess. That was an extreme occurrence but if a shining eye or caco decides to spend every action it has using malmutate (or even just the first action) you can't exactly stop it without a sleep stab or firestorm or similar. Options that don't really exist for your average fighter character.
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Jun 20, 2016 07:16
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Darox posted:It was one tile. The only way I could possibly have killed it faster is by starting one tile closer or throwing javelins. In which case I would only get 2 mutations I guess. That was an extreme occurrence but if a shining eye or caco decides to spend every action it has using malmutate (or even just the first action) you can't exactly stop it without a sleep stab or firestorm or similar. Options that don't really exist for your average fighter character. ah, i missed the 'one tile' bit, which is pretty key! my apologies, that was me loving up. very weird that you'd get mutated that much. shining eyes are speed 7, so if it decided to malmutate every turn (very unlikely) and if you were at mindelay with the exec axe, you'd have needed to take at least five swings of an exec axe to kill a monster with 55 hp, 3 ac, and 1 ev if you got malmutated three times. on average it uses malmut a little less than one in three of its turns, so that'd take about five player turns for it to malmutate you even once. anyway, one thing you could've done is used a net on it. it has one ev, so it's not gonna dodge, and monsters won't do anything but try to escape while they're inside nets, so it wouldn't have malmuted. kind of a pricey way to spend a net, of course. sorry for being rude earlier! PleasingFungus fucked around with this message at 07:31 on Jun 20, 2016 |
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Jun 20, 2016 07:29
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So what was the reason scroll of enchant weapon were changed to not remove curses? No, I'm not bitter that I went 6 floors without a scroll of remove curse with a -2 straight sword until I got abyssed and killed by an abomination 
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Jun 20, 2016 07:59
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Maybe for Ash worshipers?
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Jun 20, 2016 08:22
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I assume also to make Remove Curse more meaningful, since a better scroll does not also do what it does now.
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Jun 20, 2016 08:24
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Zaodai posted:Maybe for Ash worshipers? Ash would preserve the curse when you would use the enchant scroll anyway.
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Jun 20, 2016 09:04
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HOMos are fun, but the Orc Jesus minigame is really involved and I don't know if I'm good enough to do it right. Guess I'm back to R/C combos that don't have amazing names.
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Jun 20, 2016 09:06
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Internet Kraken posted:So what was the reason scroll of enchant weapon were changed to not remove curses? the argument was, 'why should they remove curses?' why should an item that gives +1 to a weapon's enchantment also toggle curse status, which is an otherwise unrelated effect? i wasn't super excited about the change, since i feel like it makes the Curse Game a little less fun - you're no longer iding scrolls to find 'an item that can remove the curse', you're looking for 'a remove curse scroll'. i can see the logic, though
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Jun 20, 2016 09:07
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Go HOMo of a different god! Their invo apt is fantastic for someone like Qazlal, Zin, Makhleb or ... anyone who uses invocations a lot, really.
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Jun 20, 2016 09:11
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IronicDongz posted:I never have to play a felid again! It used to be even better when any form retained paw stabbing. Dragonlid of Dithmenos at full stealth, stepping into the shadow of an orb of fire and batting it with dragon sized paws for a one hit kill
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Jun 20, 2016 12:34
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On a TeGl of Kiku on D9code:
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Jun 20, 2016 13:25
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I've been playing Uska more on a bunch of different characters. He's fun. A God that encourages you to fight large groups of enemies while also not giving you much for escape or restoration abilities is neat. Unlike some others I don't think he's that overpowered. He turns fights you should win into fights where you completely dominate so he certainly feels overpowered then, but when he's not helpful he might as well not exist. The damage sharing is probably too strong but it also needs you to be fighting a dangerous number of enemies to actually make use of it. It's hard to make a call either way. I'm not 100% on his mechanics (does invocations affect his passive abilities? It seems like it might extended paralysis duration, but only slightly) but there is one part that does feel overpowered and probably should get him nerfed, and that's how you get 90% of his power from the moment you start worshipping him. It's an interesting opposite of Hgod; While the ancestor builds off your piety, XL and invocations, Uska is ready to go immediately with no priming. Line dance has 0% failure so you can use the mobility aspect with 0 invo, paralysis and pain sharing happen regardless and even finale gets a significant failure reduction with enough piety. So if I was going to nerf Uska I would: -give line dance a small invocations requirement for failure% -give the paralysis success rate per enemy based on invocations versus monster HD -make the damage sharing scale with invocations (scale more?) I don't know about finale. The piety requirement makes it difficult to splat the dangerous things and killing one enemy in the situations where you do have the piety is less important, but I also have yet to fight any demon lords with Uska. PleasingFungus posted:anyway, one thing you could've done is used a net on it. it has one ev, so it's not gonna dodge, and monsters won't do anything but try to escape while they're inside nets, so it wouldn't have malmuted. kind of a pricey way to spend a net, of course. Yeah it was on the really unlucky end of curve, which is why it sticks in the memory. That and I have malmut attempts on force more. The net is a good tip though. I already have them on default autopickup, and netting seems like a good choice to try and counteract shinings & neq summons even with bad throwing. I just need to remember I actually have them when I need them. (See also blink, haste, fear, invisibility...)
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Jun 20, 2016 13:45
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Shakill OReal posted:Thanks whoever suggested to just eat the purp, the game's way easier now It's funny because almost everyone on SA says eat the purp including me, than we bitch about malmutate. I guess when we do it to ourselves it feels acceptable. Make a race that starts with *tele *rage and idk, blurry vision or some poo poo, but is immune to outside sources of mutation, contamination included, except mutation/benemut pots. See if the race is considered weak or strong after everyone gets a chance to play it. The more I actively think about malmutate while playing the more I realize it's not that big of a deal. Everything is workable in the end.
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Jun 20, 2016 13:49
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